Hi, reading the preview article about Apex and his face down installations, I was left wondering - can these cards ever be "rezzed" or flipped/paid for, or are they just food for his other card consumption mechanics?
Edited by PaleKingApex's face down cards
Just food. Theoretically they could be sold to Aesop if you splashed them in a deck that can run Aesop.
Edited by GrimwalkerThey can also be Chop-bot food.
My question is whether they keep their subtypes still. Does the runner have to indicate which cards are resources and can they be trashed when tagged?
A face down Runner card has no text of any kind, including type or subtype. They are literally just 'an installed card' for the purposes of card effects.
I wish they still kept their types, because a close reading of Harbinger kind of kills my Hayley Kaplan/Wasteland/Aesop econ engine idea.
If installing a card is a click
AND
Apex has the ability to install runner cards facedown
CAN you WHEN running as Apex take an click to install any/all cards from hand facedown (at the normal rate of one card per click)? Can you do this as ANY runner? (trash installed cards like Aesop's could make "temporarily worthless cards" do something useful.)
The Runner can perform any of the following actions as many
times as he likes, and in any combination, provided he can pay
for them. These are listed in the format of “cost: effect.”
• C: Draw one card from the stack.
• C: Gain 1c.
• C: Install a program, resource, or piece of hardware.
• C: Play an event.
• C, 2c: Remove one tag.
• C: Make a run.
• Trigger a {C} ability on an active card (cost varies).
Whenever the Runner spends clicks on one of these actions, he
is considered to be taking an action and cannot take another
action until the current action fully resolves.
This is in the core set rules--you can't spend clicks on actions during a run because you're in the middle of an action already.
It's also not accurate to say "Apex has the ability to install runner cards facedown," either. Check the card text again: he can only do so when his turn begins, one card, and not at any other time, not ever by spending clicks. If you needed more gas for Endless Hunger during a run, you could trigger the Paid Ability on Hunting Grounds, for example.
Edited by Grimwalkererm "running as Apex" = playing as Apex.....
Ahhh. Same answer, but shorter. Apex reads:
You cannot install non- virtual resources.
When your turn begins , you may install 1 card from your grip facedown.
So, no, you cannot install facedown cards as a Click Action as Apex, or any other runner.
As far being useless, their use is to provide fuel for cards which trash installed cards as a cost. Aesop's Pawnshop and Chop-bot are two outside of Apex, and within Apex: Endless Hunger, Heartbeat, Prey, and (peripherally) Wasteland.
One popular engine some time back was to run Wasteland and Harbinger out of Hayley Kaplan, accentuating the benefit of selling Daily Casts, Armitage, and Cache to Aesop--Harbinger is a free bonus install when installing Cache, and can be sold twice for $3 each time...not bad for a $0 clickless install!
I see I should be more specific.
Apex introduced the idea of a runner being able to install facedown runner cards - not hosting, not getting it flipped over - initially installed facedown. The installed facedown cards are placed in their own area separate from those cards which may become flipped over through other action. I'd like to hear from staff if this introduced the idea that when using Apex IF you can install a facedown card as a click action too. There is nothing in the rules - or FAQ - to prohibit this.
Yes, page 15 of the base rule book states that you can install a program, resource, or piece of hardware as a click action. However, by nature of the text on the ID a new installed card type has been introduced: the face down runner card. Cards, for runners, DO have their type in the grip, heap, stack, or once installed EXCEPT when they have been installed facedown. There are only two other non-Apex runner cards which make reference to other face down runner cards that I currently am aware of: Bookmark and Streetpeddler. BOTH of these state that you HOST the facedown cards not install - though the FAQ does allude to the idea that Hosting is a subtype of installation. There are three Apex runner cards outside of his ID which generate instances of installing cards facedown: Apocolypse, Harbinger, and Hunting Grounds. (Facedown runner cards are discussed on page 7 of the latest FAQ. Hosted cards on page 5-6.) Page 4 of the FAQ says that Events, Operations, and IDs are never installed....there is no mention of restriction on Facedown Runner Cards here either.
Also by the nature of the FAQ, facedown cards have no type, ability, cost, etc - so anything can be installed as a facedown card (per the already accepted text and rulings). I'm not arguing to run cards in an Apex deck he cannot /normally/ use in his deck, please keep this in mind. (Also my reference to "useless cards" was a gross generalization - to wit I meant a card you felt you could not already use, or would not be playing, like say a duplicate of your console already installed.)
By the nature of the games base rules (there is nothing which says "no" to this idea), and that I have yet to see anything referenced officially contrary to my assertion, Apex installing a card facedown is a viable click choice.
Admittedly, I'm still somewhat new to this version of the game; however I thought this a point worth bringing up as I have been unable to find any discussion on this possibly being a legitimate option. So take a look at this from a relative new-comer's point of view. When we humans do something one way for a long time we tend to think it IS the way. I'm merely asserting this small finding for two reason: 1) I think it should be clarified 2) I'd like to see Apex be given a fighting chance to get out of the "Tier Rock Bottom" for Runners. (Personally, in an Net-connected dominate world there's I believe there is no legit reason Apex should be able to use all resources since he should be able to access all locations, communicate with any person, etc et al by nature of the invasive connectedness of the world Apex inhabits... though I can see why for balance and design purposes he might be given such a restriction.)
(He can't use Aesop's pawnshop as it's a Resource: Location - Connection (but why can't he pawn his software over the Net?
) and Apex is prohibited from using nonvirtual resources. -- NOT that I said you said Apex could use Aesop's Pawnshop-- Chop-bot 3000 is hardware so it's legit for Apex to use.
)
I see I should be more specific.
No, you were sufficiently specific, and the answers above were a sufficient answer to your question.
Apex introduced the idea of a runner being able to install facedown runner cards - not hosting, not getting it flipped over - initially installed facedown. The installed facedown cards are placed in their own area separate from those cards which may become flipped over through other action. I'd like to hear from staff if this introduced the idea that when using Apex IF you can install a facedown card as a click action too. There is nothing in the rules - or FAQ - to prohibit this.
Staff don't read the forums. If you want you can submit a query via
https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/contact/rules/
but I guarantee you what the answer will be.
No, you cannot install a facedown card as a click action. Rules are not
proscriptive
, telling you what's prohibited. They are
prescriptive
, telling you how and where and when you
can
do a thing. The only provision for installing cards facedown are specific card effects such as Apex's text ability, and none of them involve or even imply that you can freely spend a click to do so.
Yes, page 15 of the base rule book states that you can install a program, resource, or piece of hardware as a click action. However, by nature of the text on the ID a new installed card type has been introduced: the face down runner card. Cards, for runners, DO have their type in the grip, heap, stack, or once installed EXCEPT when they have been installed facedown. There are only two other non-Apex runner cards which make reference to other face down runner cards that I currently am aware of: Bookmark and Streetpeddler. BOTH of these state that you HOST the facedown cards not install - though the FAQ does allude to the idea that Hosting is a subtype of installation. There are three Apex runner cards outside of his ID which generate instances of installing cards facedown: Apocolypse, Harbinger, and Hunting Grounds. (Facedown runner cards are discussed on page 7 of the latest FAQ. Hosted cards on page 5-6.) Page 4 of the FAQ says that Events, Operations, and IDs are never installed....there is no mention of restriction on Facedown Runner Cards here either.
You can't say that a card which has no type, has a type. That's a self-refuting statement. Bookmark and Street Peddler each come with specific text which enables you (again, prescriptive rules) to do things with those facedown cards.
Also by the nature of the FAQ, facedown cards have no type, ability, cost, etc - so anything can be installed as a facedown card (per the already accepted text and rulings). I'm not arguing to run cards in an Apex deck he cannot /normally/ use in his deck, please keep this in mind. (Also my reference to "useless cards" was a gross generalization - to wit I meant a card you felt you could not already use, or would not be playing, like say a duplicate of your console already installed.)
Any runner card can be installed as a facedown card via Apex's text ability, yes. It's a fine thing to do with cards which don't have immediate utility which would otherwise be dead draws.
By the nature of the games base rules (there is nothing which says "no" to this idea), and that I have yet to see anything referenced officially contrary to my assertion, Apex installing a card facedown is a viable click choice.
The nature of the game rules, again, is not to say "no." There is nothing in the game rules which prevents me from picking up my opponent's deck and rifling through it, putting it in the order I desire and putting it back down. There's nothing in the rules which prevents me from reaching across the table to a troublesome piece of ice and tearing the card in half. Rules cannot operate on a proscriptive basis because the number of actions one might take it into one's head to do on the basis of "I have yet to see anything referenced officially contrary to my assertion" is quite literally infinite. If the rules say you
can
do a thing, then you can. If there is no such rule permitting you to do a thing, you cannot. There is no rule which says you can install facedown cards via a click.
Admittedly, I'm still somewhat new to this version of the game; however I thought this a point worth bringing up as I have been unable to find any discussion on this possibly being a legitimate option. So take a look at this from a relative new-comer's point of view. When we humans do something one way for a long time we tend to think it IS the way. I'm merely asserting this small finding for two reason: 1) I think it should be clarified 2) I'd like to see Apex be given a fighting chance to get out of the "Tier Rock Bottom" for Runners. (Personally, in an Net-connected dominate world there's I believe there is no legit reason Apex should be able to use all resources since he should be able to access all locations, communicate with any person, etc et al by nature of the invasive connectedness of the world Apex inhabits... though I can see why for balance and design purposes he might be given such a restriction.)
Because everybody knows that you can do what the rules say you can do, not that you can do what the rules don't say you can't do.
(He can't use Aesop's pawnshop as it's a Resource: Location - Connection (but why can't he pawn his software over the Net?
Use of Aesop generally implies splashing Apex cards into non-Apex decks. I've often envisioned a Current or Virtual resource which would permit Apex to install other resources; in a world where emergent hostile AIs exist, Roko's Basilisk is slightly more than an exercise in absurdity. I think the rationale is that the meatspace world that Resources exist in is as meaningless to it as it is to ask us where music goes when it's not being played. Apex has no context to understand our world--he's an entity that consumes data, probably barely sentient as we understand it.
Edited
by Grimwalker
Excellent answer Grim. My only minor niggle (and it is a minor one, but it makes my brain itch not to say anything) is the use of gendered pronouns to refer to Apex (it matters to some people).
yeah, that's true, Apex is canonically "it." Edited.