The JJ Star Trek actually makes it watchable to people that don't have a huge interest in Star Trek, and that's a lot healthier for a franchise than catering to a few fanboys.

The problem with the JJ Trek movies were not that they were bad _movies_, but that they fundamentally did not understand what Trek was about.

Star Trek is about the moral quandary of a Klingon Civil War that is being funded by the Romulans. The Federation knows this, the Klingons don't, and the Prime Directive says that the Federation needs to stand by and harm their own interests because the Romulans are good liars. Picard figures out another solution. That's Star Trek.

Star Trek is Sisco trying to figure out if it's worth killing one man to save the freedom of hundreds of billions.

Star Trek is Kirk discovering a relic of Humanity's dark ages- someone who had been designed as the smartest mind humanly possible- and outthinking him. Twice.

JJ Abrams solved that same problem by having Spock punch someone in the face. It's a bit boring as a solution, but the scene itself was fun to watch. It was _not_ very Star Trek, though. It didn't actually show that the human impulse to do better can overcome our desire to smash all interlopers.

Star Trek is also Kirk kicking a shapeshifter in the goolies, Scott knocking himself out and Klingons spouting Shakespeare while someone is pretending to be god and we spend about an hour in real time flying over a sattelite. It's Spock as a hippie. It's a clone of Picard belonging to a suddenly existing entire subrace of Romulans. It introduces Kirk's son only to kill him soon after.

Let's not equate the JJ films with the series, equate them with the movies. They were quite often much less cerebral (and have you seen the first season of TNG? I'm struggling to rewatch those now, they've not aged well) than the series sometimes achieved to be.

Oh my freakin' god guys.

Are you SERIOUSLY arguing about whether or not TIE Fighters have Repulsorlifts?

Are you freaking serious?

Rebels lost me when I saw this laser-sling ... and Ties move like helicopters?

So laser swords and space magic are ok but slings aren't? That's an interesting line you draw there.

Also it's quite natural that Ties would move like helicopters. Repulsor tech would act pretty much exactly like a chopper does.

pretty much all ships can hover, don't you remember the xwings taking off in star wars? If they didnt have repulsors ties would pretty much never be able to land, my only complaint about the ties is that they were not in their iconic launch racks but were landed on the ground (which is fine, but how the hell are the pilots supposed to get on board quickly? At least x wings have a ladder)

In some of the Gundam series a line is lowered to the ground that has a small foot hold, maybe it is something like that?

Also, I'm pretty sure I've seen TIEs use VTOL movement in the movies. It would be impossible for them to deploy from Star Destroyer bays if they needed a runway to take off.

Tractor beams are used to land small ships in hangars.

Just remembered, new movie trailer, TIE is hovering across the hanger and shooting at everyone like a helicopter. I will assume that Finn did not get help from the tractor beams during his escape.

This is AFTER the disneyfication. The LUCAS Tie Fighters couldn't. Hence Star Wars computer- and video games. Do you remember ANY game that lets you fly a Tie like a copter?

If you mean the video games, most likely the Xwing simulator series, all of the fighters could come to a dead stop in space and pivot (which is not possible without braking thrust, but lets not get on physics quandaries). In Battlefront you could hover as well, and pretty much moved like a helicopter, there really weren't a lot of opportunities to fly tie fighters in gravity and atmosphere. The only actual example of this would be the old Star Wars Battlefront games.

Are you freaking serious?

TheRealStarkiller apparently doesn't think they do.

Are you freaking serious?

TheRealStarkiller apparently doesn't think they do.

Which is exceptionally ironic since in his namesake game The Force Unleashed TIE fighters do hover slowly in order to attack you several times throughout the game.

Are you freaking serious?

TheRealStarkiller apparently doesn't think they do.

Well he's freakin wrong!

Repulsorlifts are standard equipment on Starfighters! They're on STAPs. Freaking STAPs. There is NO reason The Empire wouldn't include them.

Does anybody here HONESTLY think those little Ion Engines alone could sustain atmospheric flight? Really? REALLY?

This is stupid, people! This is STUPID! this is a TINY detail that NOBODY cares about. If they didn't before and do now, well guess what folks!?

A flaw in the design was fixed!

I don't believe for a SECOND that Sienar was THAT stupid. You'd have to be EXTREMELY special to not include them.

Are you freaking serious?

TheRealStarkiller apparently doesn't think they do.

Which is exceptionally ironic since in his namesake game The Force Unleashed TIE fighters do hover slowly in order to attack you several times throughout the game.

Yep, that too. And guess what?

That was a George Lucas approved CANON SOURCE.

I rather like the disneyfication. I'll be honest, a lot of the EU stuff really left me cold. I'm glad that it's gone and we're starting from scratch with a single guiding philosophy and tighter control.

Tempers flaring hotter than Kylo's Lightsaber.

Tempers flaring hotter than Kylo's Lightsaber.

That's just because it's Tuesday.

Tempers flaring hotter than Kylo's Lightsaber.

It's just irritating for people to bicker over something so stupid.

Yep, that too. And guess what?

That was a George Lucas approved CANON SOURCE.

Lucas was involved but that doesn't make it (technically) canon. And certainly isn't now *ducks*

(although I agree the floating TIE makes sense)

Yep, that too. And guess what?

That was a George Lucas approved CANON SOURCE.

Lucas was involved but that doesn't make it (technically) canon. And certainly isn't now *ducks*

(although I agree the floating TIE makes sense)

it was declared such by him, last I checked. But it's not now, THANK GOD.

yes

At this point I think time will tell. To me wave 7 was about addressing the most common complaint - ordnance was not not used.

Wave 8 is clearly the rebels wave, but also tacked on TFA - which does seem like it would be disney mandated and I could understand cynicism there.

One could also make the argument that this was just smart marketing on FFG's part. They are more likley to sell TFA ships around the time the movie comes out (which will draw more players btw) then they would in a later release catering to the established player base. Our hobby is only alive as long as we have new blood coming in.

What the hell is Star Trek doing in my Star Wars forum???....GET OFF MY LAWN!!! Anyways...continue the nerd fight guys...makes my lunch interesting!

Take off, he said, not land. Also, could you cite the source for that, Starkiller? Not to turn this into a canon-fight or anything. It's just, well, I'm curious where that came from and if they explain how that works- Because using tractor beams to land up to 72 ships in a withdrawal seems absurd

Star Destroyers have several utility tractor beams located in different locations to ensure full control in moving objects in 3D space by 'crossing the beams', inside and outside of the hangars.

Thats how supply crates come in and all the stuff which isn't fighters and shuttles.

Watch episode 4 ... how do you think they brought the CR90 into the bays? I don't have more sources for you.

The fighters need to land in small groups. The others need to wait until they are next in line.

Aircraft carriers have similar problems, don't they?

Quick translation: Old is good, new is bad! Made up reasons! Rabble rabble rabble.

I think we should all just be happy that it is going anywhere at all. I was getting worried that Star Wars was going to be a dust collector.

The JJ Star Trek actually makes it watchable to people that don't have a huge interest in Star Trek, and that's a lot healthier for a franchise than catering to a few fanboys.

The problem with the JJ Trek movies were not that they were bad _movies_, but that they fundamentally did not understand what Trek was about.

Star Trek is about the moral quandary of a Klingon Civil War that is being funded by the Romulans. The Federation knows this, the Klingons don't, and the Prime Directive says that the Federation needs to stand by and harm their own interests because the Romulans are good liars. Picard figures out another solution. That's Star Trek.

Star Trek is Sisco trying to figure out if it's worth killing one man to save the freedom of hundreds of billions.

Star Trek is Kirk discovering a relic of Humanity's dark ages- someone who had been designed as the smartest mind humanly possible- and outthinking him. Twice.

JJ Abrams solved that same problem by having Spock punch someone in the face. It's a bit boring as a solution, but the scene itself was fun to watch. It was _not_ very Star Trek, though. It didn't actually show that the human impulse to do better can overcome our desire to smash all interlopers.

It's not that JJ didn't dona great job of showing interesting action scenes. He did! But he misunderstood the ends to which Trek employs action.

Thankfully, in Ep7 this quandry should not come up. So if he gives us a standard action blockbuster, we should be well served.

And if not? I can still watch Rebels the next day.

Bull pucky,

This is cherry picking at its finest.

Let me have a go.

Star Trek is Kirk seeing a blue person and sexing it if it has a skirt or two hand tomahawk punching it if it doesn't.

Star Trek is making fun of how Europeans say the word "Vessel" or watching future people try to talk to 90's era computers.

Star Trek is figuring out just how many jobs McCoy is not other than a doctor.

Star Trek is how tachyons and their reversal is the solution to every problem.

Star Trek is Riker getting command of the Enterprise and always ALWAY breaking it.

Star Trek is replicators magically creating food until you want to engineer tough times for a lost ship and then suddenly you need to grow food somehow.

JJ on the other hand took a no win situation where Spock knew Kahn would kill him and used Kahn's preconceptions about Vulcans into tricking him into transporting 40+ armed proton torpedoes onto his own ship, and still saved the potentially innocent lives of the people stored in those torpedoes.

JJ killed trek my rear end. I grew up on TNG and DS9. They had huge amounts of garbage filler episodes. Hell, I pretty much write off all of DS9 until Sisco shaves his head.

Honestly Im cautiously optimistic about the new film, I remember watching eps 1-3 when they came out.. I was a bit younger (17) and loved the battle droid stuff and everything else made me want to stab myself in the spleen.. now I can't even watch eps 1 or 2 they are so bad.. The special editions annoy me to no end as well, I wish someone could punch Lucas in the gut and get him to release the ORIGINAL 4-6 on DVD or Blu ray

JJ did decently with the new Star Trek movies.. I enjoyed them, though I have some qualms with them like how Spock acts and the engine room of the enterprise being some.. pipe-works pit. I know a lot didn't but Ill still hold the reboots above the odd numbered original films. So at least going into it I feel more secure than the crap Lucas churned out.

And again Im weary of what disney CAN do with the movies but IN so far I haven't had reason to complain.. I enjoyed sitting through Rebels (just watched season 1 yesterday) you just have to remember your watching a KIDs show not something for 30-50 year olds and you'll realize that they still kill those stormtroopers left and right.. It's not stun beams (except from Ezra) so honestly.. I think there's a lot of over reaction..

and I'd be far more afraid of watching Lucas making 7-9 than I am JJ

JJ killed trek my rear end. I grew up on TNG and DS9. They had huge amounts of garbage filler episodes. Hell, I pretty much write off all of DS9 until Sisco shaves his head.

We need a storyline and we don't want to scifi, let's break the holodeck/go to the mirror universe where everyone is the opposite!

We need a storyline using a not-alien/hero/avatar/supergenius, let's torture Miles!

We need a storyline with some quirkyness, let's have the android/ex-borg/hologram get confused about normal human behaviour!

I love the Treks, I do, but let's not make them holier than anything.

Then again, they weren't made in an era where you regularly consume complete seasons in a day or two, when first aired you hardly noticed those things.

The JJ Star Trek actually makes it watchable to people that don't have a huge interest in Star Trek, and that's a lot healthier for a franchise than catering to a few fanboys.

The problem with the JJ Trek movies were not that they were bad _movies_, but that they fundamentally did not understand what Trek was about.

Star Trek is about the moral quandary of a Klingon Civil War that is being funded by the Romulans. The Federation knows this, the Klingons don't, and the Prime Directive says that the Federation needs to stand by and harm their own interests because the Romulans are good liars. Picard figures out another solution. That's Star Trek.

Star Trek is Sisco trying to figure out if it's worth killing one man to save the freedom of hundreds of billions.

Star Trek is Kirk discovering a relic of Humanity's dark ages- someone who had been designed as the smartest mind humanly possible- and outthinking him. Twice.

JJ Abrams solved that same problem by having Spock punch someone in the face. It's a bit boring as a solution, but the scene itself was fun to watch. It was _not_ very Star Trek, though. It didn't actually show that the human impulse to do better can overcome our desire to smash all interlopers.

It's not that JJ didn't dona great job of showing interesting action scenes. He did! But he misunderstood the ends to which Trek employs action.

Thankfully, in Ep7 this quandry should not come up. So if he gives us a standard action blockbuster, we should be well served.

And if not? I can still watch Rebels the next day.

Bull pucky,

This is cherry picking at its finest.

Let me have a go.

Star Trek is Kirk seeing a blue person and sexing it if it has a skirt or two hand tomahawk punching it if it doesn't.

Star Trek is making fun of how Europeans say the word "Vessel" or watching future people try to talk to 90's era computers.

Star Trek is figuring out just how many jobs McCoy is not other than a doctor.

Star Trek is how tachyons and their reversal is the solution to every problem.

Star Trek is Riker getting command of the Enterprise and always ALWAY breaking it.

Star Trek is replicators magically creating food until you want to engineer tough times for a lost ship and then suddenly you need to grow food somehow.

JJ on the other hand took a no win situation where Spock knew Kahn would kill him and used Kahn's preconceptions about Vulcans into tricking him into transporting 40+ armed proton torpedoes onto his own ship, and still saved the potentially innocent lives of the people stored in those torpedoes.

JJ killed trek my rear end. I grew up on TNG and DS9. They had huge amounts of garbage filler episodes. Hell, I pretty much write off all of DS9 until Sisco shaves his head.

You're the hero we need.

Star Trek: lot more grounded in reality as soft sci fi goes, lycra everything is always a plus, very little handwavy space magic.

Lots of pointless technobabble, reverse the polarity of the tachyon emitter again.

Epic space battles. when they happen.

Strong Exploration focus. - Driving plot behind series.

Star Wars: Science fantasy, soft sci fi. Battle armour looks cool, as does a certain bikini - in fact generally Star Wars fashion wins.

Used universe, lots of grime. Everything is rule of cool / awesome but impractical. Spehss Magic.

Next to no Exploration focus. Which is kind of a shame.

DM's like me like to play up the EU and make Stormtroopers super-competent.

I personally like wars more than trek, but I respect trek.

Well you got some of a point, both franchise strives to be believable with their fiction. In Star Trek you get a bunch of exposition in how the technology works that is loosely related in scientific theories but there is a small enough connection with current theories to make it believable.

In Star Wars they go more with context of making things believable with the Millennium Falcon being a rather aging vessel and the failed start at the battle of hoth with Hans and Chewie scrambling to fix it bring some of a realistic aesthetic to the scene. It is not flashy or fancy as the laser bolts but it is something we can all relate to as many of us experienced a car breakdown.

I actually think that is where JJ went wrong with Star Trek, it wasn't a mercenary for hire or a rag-tag group of rebels in the ships it was an organized modern technologically modern military organization and Star Trek often had the sterile feel of military order and conformism. Everything was sterile in comparison to the main cast of Star Wars much like how the empire was glossy and sharp in comparison to the rebels. That's when JJ made the Apple-prise as this super high-tech easy access information age ship where everything look more or less like an I-phone on steroids. Sure it looked better, but again it didn't improve the narrative.

After reading through page after page after page, I have something to add that I can not believe was not here.

Circa: 1980

You must unlearn what you have learned.

Very enjoyable read. I just really wish people would stop with the "It was never canon!" junk. It was canon. LFL said it was and took care to make it work. Lucas was involved in the EU more than people want to believe.

JJ's Star Trek movies involve fun (but frequently stupid) action sequences stitched together by some of the worst plotting outside of Michael Bay flick. But that terrible plotting is entirely down to JJ's friends and collaborators being incompetent hacks who have failed upward throughout their careers. Good news: JJ's friends and collaborators aren't working on Star Wars, so that's not going to be a problem this time. It might still have issues, but nothing like the sort of issues that come along when Orci and Kurtzman work on your film.

(only true crap has been the stuff Marvel no longer has control over, like the recent Fantastic Four flick).

Someone hasn't seen Punisher: War Zone

Uh, which is good. Don't see it. Don't ever see it.

FYI, Orci and Kurtzman were involved with Revenge of the Fallen. So, yeah...

Yeah the major problems with JJ's Trek films were in the writing. I don't see how horrible writing translates as making the franchise more accessible either.

They turned Kirk into a stereotypical high school jock who thinks he can get away with anything, tricks people he's pretending to care about into helping him do things which can get them into major trouble if their role in his scheme is discovered, and expects others to lie in their reports to cover up his decisions then throws a temper tantrum if they don't do as get expected.

And they turned Khan into a bad comic villain. And what were they smoking when they thought

was a good idea?