43 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

Niten: Likely a 'back of the binder' card. Looks quite inefficient and situational.

You need to have this card in play, *and* with an attachment *and* have an opponent with an attachment that you want to bow.

To get an attachment you're probably having to play *another* card: so that's 3 cards (+ Fate) to bow one card. Not a great deal.

You need to have this card in play that's correct. Yes you need to have an attachment on him. Pretty easy to do since you are the Dragon and just from neutral cards you get 6 0 cost attachments.

No you don't need an opponent with an attachment that is the opposite of what you want since the ability doesn't work on characters with attachments...

To get an attachment you bid your honor during draw phase. Don't know where did you get "need to spend another card" from.

Doesn't really look like binder fodder for me, more like a staple in every attachment Dragon deck for the rest of eternity.

PS I'm salty.

38 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

Niten: Likely a 'back of the binder' card. Looks quite inefficient and situational.

You need to have this card in play, *and* with an attachment *and* have an opponent with an attachment that you want to bow.

To get an attachment you're probably having to play *another* card: so that's 3 cards (+ Fate) to bow one card. Not a great deal.

Uh? No, it bow an opposing character without attachment. So, it's a 2 card setup, which can be used multiple times depending on the time it stays on the board and in a clan where playing attachment (some costing 0 fate) is something that will be done a lot.

It's clearly not a "back to the binder" card...

2 minutes ago, KerenRhys said:

Uh? No, it bow an opposing character without attachment. So, it's a 2 card setup, which can be used multiple times depending on the time it stays on the board and in a clan where playing attachment (some costing 0 fate) is something that will be done a lot.

It's clearly not a "back to the binder" card...

Sorry - meant to type "without".

My point being compare it to For Shame: 0 cost, needs a Courtier. 2 cards. An 'action' to play the Courtier, and action to play For Shame.

Niten needs 2 Fate, an action to play Niten, an action to play an attachment 2 cards. And then another action to use Nitens ability. You're also filling your conflict deck with more attachments (rather than events or characters) in order to ensure you can use Niten.

That may not be very efficient, and that's the question mark over this character in my view.

13 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

Sorry - meant to type "without".

My point being compare it to For Shame: 0 cost, needs a Courtier. 2 cards. An 'action' to play the Courtier, and action to play For Shame.

Niten needs 2 Fate, an action to play Niten, an action to play an attachment 2 cards. And then another action to use Nitens ability. You're also filling your conflict deck with more attachments (rather than events or characters) in order to ensure you can use Niten.

That may not be very efficient, and that's the question mark over this character in my view.

Most of the time, For Shame gives the opponent a choice, which means in the situation where you really need to bow the opposing character, it won't happen. Niten Adept is more reliable on the effect (debatable as it needs the target to be without attachment contrary to For Shame I concede). On the other hand, For Shame is a 1-shot, where Niten Adept can potentially be used multiple times.

It may be a little more costy in fate, since you could play a courtier for 1 fate instead of 2, but the difference in cost is not as big as you're implying it.

Moreover, filling your deck with attachments will be the norm in Dragon decks so it's not a problem. Remember, Dragon is intended to be the attachment clan by FFG description.

Last thing, Niten Adept may be a tempo loss over For Shame if you play your attachment during the conflict, but you're not forced to. You could also play it before the conflict and then, tempo is the same. Sure, Niten Adept will be a little more predictable than For Shame, but it's also more versatile as your weapon can also bring strength if you don't need the bowing effect and/or more powerful depending on wether the attachment still contribute strength when bowed.

Double post

13 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

Sorry - meant to type "without".

My point being compare it to For Shame: 0 cost, needs a Courtier. 2 cards. An 'action' to play the Courtier, and action to play For Shame.

Niten needs 2 Fate, an action to play Niten, an action to play an attachment 2 cards. And then another action to use Nitens ability. You're also filling your conflict deck with more attachments (rather than events or characters) in order to ensure you can use Niten.

That may not be very efficient, and that's the question mark over this character in my view.

For Shame is the best neutral card right now and it still doesn't bow even close to 100% of the time.

I don't know what is inefficient for you about this character since it is essentialy a For Shame on a stick(always bows but doesn't work on characters with attachments), and if it sticks around 1 turn or maybe 2 its value is even greater. And it is not like the attachments you play on him are useless, they help you win.

You didn't write you are not sure about it you said it is binder fodder xd

there is no way this is a bad card

Attachments in this game are good, and bowing them doesn't stop them working, with like one exception we have seen (Jade Tetsubo). It's a good card, bordering on great.

I mean, here's the standard case: you attach an ancestral Daisho to him or a fine Katana. Now he is 4 military and bows people. His biggest weakness is the restriction on bowing people with attachments. But he is a 2 cost guy.

I think it will be a great play on average, but against some decks it might be less impressive. Against Crab (few big guys, shouldn't be an issue for them to play an attachment on those who are important) and in a Dragon mirror match it likely won't be that dangerous, but against clans like Lion or Crane it's very good; it could also force your opponent to make a sub-optimal play with their attachments (i.e. put them on a guy who's leaving at the end of the round).

38 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

Sorry - meant to type "without".

My point being compare it to For Shame: 0 cost, needs a Courtier. 2 cards. An 'action' to play the Courtier, and action to play For Shame.

Niten needs 2 Fate, an action to play Niten, an action to play an attachment 2 cards. And then another action to use Nitens ability. You're also filling your conflict deck with more attachments (rather than events or characters) in order to ensure you can use Niten.

That may not be very efficient, and that's the question mark over this character in my view.

Comparing anything to For Shame is just going to end in disappointment because that card is overtuned like crazy.

And I think you're overly concerned with actions. Yes, it takes an action to play Niten. A Dynasty phase action, as he's a Dynasty card.

You can play the attachment before the battle if you're worried about number of actions.

So, if you need to, you can enter a conflict with the attachment already attached and your first action can be the kneel. This makes him a phenomenal defender. First action as defender. Kneel that guy with no attachments.

As for filling your deck with more attachments, we can already see that this will be a theme for Dragon. The Agasha Swordsmith even goes and fetches weapons, so it's not like you're relying on top decking them.

And there is a maximum of 10 characters allowed in the conflict deck. So 30 cards in your conflict deck will be either events of attachments. I'm sure some clans will go event heavy, like Scorpion and Crane. Others will be more attachment heavy, such as Dragon and possibly Crab. That isn't a downside of the card as much as it is just a matter of deck building.

As far as I'm concerned, bow effects will never not be effective. And while your opponent will be able to protect their best characters from this bow with attachments, they likely won't have attachments on all their characters. This, at worst, makes it difficult for them to assign defenders or attackers when this guy is involved because they don't want their attachment-less characters facing this guy.

I think it's a swell card.

2 minutes ago, Joe From Cincinnati said:

Comparing anything to For Shame is just going to end in disappointment because that card is overtuned like crazy.

+1

Also agreed on the fact bowing is very very strong.

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

For Shame is the best neutral card right now and it still doesn't bow even close to 100% of the time.

I don't know what is inefficient for you about this character since it is essentialy a For Shame on a stick(always bows but doesn't work on characters with attachments), and if it sticks around 1 turn or maybe 2 its value is even greater. And it is not like the attachments you play on him are useless, they help you win.

You didn't write you are not sure about it you said it is binder fodder xd

there is no way this is a bad card

Niten stick around, but it's not 'hidden' in the same way For Shame is. Granted For Shame gives your opponent options which Niten doesn't. Depends on how valuable surprising your opponent is.

I could see Nitens value *alonside* For Shame but then I'm constrained on filling my conflict deck with attachments, & For Shame which reduces the space available for other effects. Nitsen then needs building around rather than being a 'standalone' card which could be problematic.

I kind of like it. Not the best, but seems real good with Dragon.

For Dragon I think he is quite good. He doesn't have attacker or defender restrictions. Just needs an attachment that the Dragon will be playing a ton of anyway so easy to trigger. So he might not be able to bow the exact guy you would want to cause your opponent can see it coming. But it is a guaranteed bow out. Like against Lion or Crane, they won't all have attachments. That is one less guy in the fight than they would have had.

52 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

Niten stick around, but it's not 'hidden' in the same way For Shame is. Granted For Shame gives your opponent options which Niten doesn't. Depends on how valuable surprising your opponent is.

I could see Nitens value *alonside* For Shame but then I'm constrained on filling my conflict deck with attachments, & For Shame which reduces the space available for other effects. Nitsen then needs building around rather than being a 'standalone' card which could be problematic.

Well you should fill your conflict deck with attachments because the best neutral cards revealed so far right after For Shame are Fine Katana and Ornament fan. Everybody will probably run 3 of each. Dragon are also supposed to have powerful attachments - for example Way of the Dragon will probably let Niten resolve his ability twice(if he has 2 attachments ofc and you really want to put it on him). Ancestral daisho is also looking pretty good and there are still like 4 attachments nor revealed thus far.

Also I don't know what "other effects" you are talking about. Attachments are supposed to have their own powerful effects and playing a lot of them in conflict should hardly be considered a disadvantage. You want some room for events but it is just a matter of properly trimming the deck.

I feel like 2 Fate for a 2/1/1 is too expensive, even with the printed action (because it's conditional - it does nothing without an equipped, unbowed weapon, and how many things are going to request you bow a weapon?)

I feel like 1 less Fate or 1 more Political would make him solid.

Straight-up love the artwork though!

28 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

I feel like 2 Fate for a 2/1/1 is too expensive, even with the printed action (because it's conditional - it does nothing without an equipped, unbowed weapon, and how many things are going to request you bow a weapon?)

I feel like 1 less Fate or 1 more Political would make him solid.

Straight-up love the artwork though!

These are average stats for 2 cost though - only Nerishima seems to have higher stats at this fate cost. And bow on attack and defence is a very strong ability.

15 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

I feel like 2 Fate for a 2/1/1 is too expensive, even with the printed action (because it's conditional - it does nothing without an equipped, unbowed weapon, and how many things are going to request you bow a weapon?)

I feel like 1 less Fate or 1 more Political would make him solid.

Straight-up love the artwork though!

They probably could have gotten away with him being a 2/2 at 2 with this ability, but the 2 for 2/1 or 1/2 with a thematically relevant and impactful ability seems to be a well established design archetype so far in the core set.

You got the Border Rider , Brash Samurai , Deathseeker , Savvy Politician , Shrewd Yasuki , Agasha Swordsmith and Akodo Gunso who all match this design archetype.

Granted, there are a few characters like the Young Rumormonger , Shinjo Outrider and, perhaps, the Mirumoto Prodigy that are 2 for 2/2 with a good ability, but those are considered well above curve, for the most part.

I don't think there's a single 2/1 for 1 in the core set so far. And 1 costers that have higher stats, like the Shiba Peacemaker and the Doomed Shugenja each have rather large drawbacks to compensate for their increased stats.

I don't think this character is hyper efficient, but I think it's costed and stat'd well compared to the rest of the core set, especially considering you get a virtually free bow effect out of him each round.

58 minutes ago, BordOne said:

Well you should fill your conflict deck with attachments because the best neutral cards revealed so far right after For Shame are Fine Katana and Ornament fan. Everybody will probably run 3 of each. Dragon are also supposed to have powerful attachments - for example Way of the Dragon will probably let Niten resolve his ability twice(if he has 2 attachments ofc and you really want to put it on him). Ancestral daisho is also looking pretty good and there are still like 4 attachments nor revealed thus far.

Also I don't know what "other effects" you are talking about. Attachments are supposed to have their own powerful effects and playing a lot of them in conflict should hardly be considered a disadvantage. You want some room for events but it is just a matter of properly trimming the deck.

I've not seen Ornament Fan? What does that do?

Just now, Tam Palso said:

I've not seen Ornament Fan? What does that do?

Probably a political equivalent of Fine Katana(we don't know the text box yet).

1 hour ago, Tam Palso said:

I've not seen Ornament Fan? What does that do?

1 hour ago, BordOne said:

Probably a political equivalent of Fine Katana(we don't know the text box yet).

It's also probably Ornate Fan, rather than Ornament Fan. And would be +0/+2 for free, with nothing else.

18 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

It's also probably Ornate Fan, rather than Ornament Fan. And would be +0/+2 for free, with nothing else.

Oh. So nothing to go on the Dragon mantelpiece then. Disappointing!

28 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

It's also probably Ornate Fan, rather than Ornament Fan. And would be +0/+2 for free, with nothing else.

You got me, meh, it's easy to tell i'm not a native anyway.

btw it can still have some restriction

7 minutes ago, Tam Palso said:

Oh. So nothing to go on the Dragon mantelpiece then. Disappointing!

I dunno about that.

Dragon seem like they'll be pretty balanced between military and political skill, for the most part. A free attachment that gives +2 political skill is likely to be quite useful.

I'm still apprehensive about the whole "a few guys with loads of attachments" theme, but it if does work, or at least has potential to work, the Fan will likely be a near auto-include, at least until some Dynasty Packs have been released.

Card seems either decent or really good depending on these questions: we know that bowed characters don't contribute force, but what about bowed attachments? Or Bowed Holdings? Or Bowed Stronghold? If the Crane uses theirs to defend does it still contribute force?

36 minutes ago, wolfien8 said:

Card seems either decent or really good depending on these questions: we know that bowed characters don't contribute force, but what about bowed attachments? Or Bowed Holdings? Or Bowed Stronghold? If the Crane uses theirs to defend does it still contribute force?

These are the answers I want most.