How dam confusing could he have made it. The description of two weapon fighting clearly states compare the difficulty of the two weapons being used. He does seem to be contradicting the rules in his statement. It is possible that he is talking purely about setback and boost dice. I wonder what he would say about using weapons with cumbersome or unwieldy as these are the only other ways for a weapon to increase the difficulty of a check. Let's hope he comes back and answers the questions others have put to him. I can see where the qualities of one should not affect the dice pool of the other weapon, but surely you should be looking at the entire dice pool of each weapon and choosing the one that is most difficult then applying the boost/setback for that weapon to the pool.

Fingers crossed for an answer

I concur. The rules written and the official FAQ seem to create even more questions about things. Using the rules that state "use the highest difficulty" would help mitigate this; since then you would have to declare the Auto-Fire and thus, it becomes Primary, but then you lose out on Accurate or Superior (or whatever) on the Secondary. And he even notes that a Pistol with a Blaster Actuating Module (+1 Setback) does NOT add the Setback from being the Secondary Weapon, so Unwieldy and Cumbersome would go too.

I know I am being a hardass on posting Rules as Written. I'd like to see clarification from what is Written to what I can only guess is Intended, which seems to be how everyone else is plating them. But we might all be doing things wrong here. I think we need to submit this whole thread to the Devs for an answer.

Thinking about it now, I can see how the Devs want the highest difficulty, but not an extreme difficulty. So if you were using 2 AutoFire pistols (for cool Matrix style shooting) then the rule for increasing difficulty would only apply once, if both are superior quality you only get 1 Boost die, etc. I think that's what Sam was trying to say, no stacking of qualities.

2 paired, jury rigged autofiring pistols, accurate and superior ... rain of death and/or guns blazing (I might add 2 purple due to TWC and autofire, but hey, 1 added purple may suffice) and short range target... then, if possible, two different funky effects on each autofiring pistol, like one range upgrade and one damage upgrade, damage on the primary to wipe out close enemy, and long range on secondary to hit targets far away (perhaps engaged with allies): autofire galore!!!!

RAW is iffy on this basically, I see your point about secondary activation Apocalypse, but there is a small mix up with the TWC wording it seems. As in another thread, we need to figure this out ourselves maybe... or await an official answer. Which may be: you handle it.

I have been running you can't use any quality from a secondary weapon unless you spend the advantages to activate the two weapon fighting first. However if a player of mine has autofire on the second weapon and wants to upgrade the difficulty for two weapon fighting and for autofire before the roll they can and I will allow the autofire on the second weapon if they still get enough advantages. If they are willing to decrease their chances for a success and chances to even get enough advantages to pull anything off I say go for it.

While most (all?) of us are and have been running Two Weapon Combat like you have detailed Kilcannon, I'm going to show an example as to why the rules as written are starting to make sense to me.

An example I'll use the following guns with qualities (yes, I know there may not be a weapon with these setups yet)....

Gun #1 will be a Blaster Pistol with Auto-fire and Blaster Actuating Module (+1 Setback)

Gun #2 is a Blaster Pistol with Superior (+1 Advantage) and Laser Sight (+1 Advantage).

Gun #1 Primary, Sun #2 Secondary

You are looking at +1 Difficulty for TWC, +1 Difficulty for Auto-fire, and +1 Setback. If you activate the Secondary, you get to add 2 Advantages. This is easily seen by all to be the way things should be done.

If we put Gun #2 as Primary, and Gun #1 as Secondary

We get +1 Difficulty for TWC, +2 Advantages (Superior and Laser). No Auto-fire possible, no Setback from Blaster Module....

Looking at both ways above, it almost makes sense to add all Positive and Negative effects from both weapons from the start, and then roll.

If we where looking at the part of the TWC rule that says "look at the 2 difficultys and use the hardest one" then no mater which is the primary you would have to roll the AutoFire weapons difficulty, so your first example makes a lot of sense to me. Once you activate the second weapon, you're given 2 more free advantage (which you can turn into hits with the AutoFire weapon).

You know, that right there might be the missing link on this. Highest Difficulty.

Primary and Secondary weapons are not always the same. Right can be Primary one attack, and the left the next. BUT, if you always hold to the 'Highest Difficulty' weapon must be used to 'build the pool', then you will always use the Auto-fire weapon as the Primary. This would even allow you to trump a Secondary that has a Setback to it, as a Difficulty Die is higher difficulty.

What this does say though, is that even if the Secondary has Setback, if the Primary choose to Auto-fire and increase Difficulty, then the Setback get ignored.

Agree except I would allow the player to tell me if they 100% don't plan on using autofire that round to not have the increased difficulty. Reason would be if they are fighting minions and suddenly a rival or nemesis with increased defense and or upgrades they may choose autofire is too difficult against that target

Agree except I would allow the player to tell me if they 100% don't plan on using autofire that round to not have the increased difficulty. Reason would be if they are fighting minions and suddenly a rival or nemesis with increased defense and or upgrades they may choose autofire is too difficult against that target

Well they have to tell you whether they're using the autofire quality or not. That's what sets the difficulty. They can opt not to try for autofire and therefore not include the extra difficulty die.

Spitfire grants the ability to "hit multiple times". It essentially gives the Gunslinger the ability to Autofire with any Pistols. Also, you don't really "Spit fire" by only shooting two guns.

A "spitfire" is a quick-tempered person. A "Spitfire" is an iconic WWII fighter plane. The Spitfire talent, to me, connotes a sudden and ferocious attack.

Just putting a second blaster in your off hand doesn't allow for multiple target pewpew, but per the Spitfire Talent specifically "Additional hit can be allocated to any other target within range of the weapon." p. 33 Fly Casual

This is what makes the talent so powerful. You make the check against a short range foe (Easy, +1 Difficulty die for the second weapon), and if you succeed and generate extra hits, those extra hits can go anywhere within the weapon's range (there are long-range pistols)! That includes well-defended foes and enemies with the Adversary talent. So that's one extra hit from 2 Advantages if you're fighting with the two weapons. Linked 1 will provide another hit for another 2 Advantage. Increase you difficulty by +1 to activate Autofire (if your weapons have autofire) and there's no limit to the number of hits you can make, as long as you've got enough Advantage.

I completely disagree and really dislike power gamers ... If you want to hit the adversary with additional targets by shooting the minions, power game away (you DM need to stop being walked all over)... If I were your DM I would make you shoot against the highest armoured and then get additional shots against the lesser accessible ones.

Then when my players argue..... I would allow them to reconsider by bringing in a couple gun slingers and some minions to fight them. Then they would target their own minions and use the PC s as additional targets... I am a fair is fair individual, you wan to cheat, so will I....

Spitfire states can hit additional targets. Those are targets to choose from, you do not gave to choose any of them. I would say one additional target, it us NOT auto fire.....

Spitfire states can hit additional targets. Those are targets to choose from, you do not gave to choose any of them. I would say one additional target, it us NOT auto fire.....

The talent specifically says "each additional hit" which strongly indicates that more than one is allowed. As written, this 25XP talent would get two-weapon combat on par with auto-fire (barely, one-handed weapons usually deal less damage than auto-fire capable ones). It is also hardly a game-breaker, considering that auto-fire exists, does not cost XP and will often be more powerful. Nerfing it to one additional hit makes the talent all but useless, especially when taking the cost of 25XP into account.

God, I wish the devs would weigh in on this one. I've put in a ticket and I know at least 2 others who have done the same. Keep sending requests, if enough people ask maybe we will finally get clarification. I don't think we will ever come to anything resembling agreement on this.

It hasn't come up yet at our table, but I feel like including "additional targets at the same or less difficulty to hit" might ease the problem.

Prevents shooting the barn to hit the adversary nemesis with total cover and a personal force field at long range.

God, I wish the devs would weigh in on this one. I've put in a ticket and I know at least 2 others who have done the same. Keep sending requests, if enough people ask maybe we will finally get clarification. I don't think we will ever come to anything resembling agreement on this.

Has anyone heard any update on clarification for Spitfire?

Necro-bumping this thread because our group had the same question.

Our Gunslinger/Modder has a pair of Nova Vipers that he Tinkered and Jury Rigged, so with Custom Grips, Hair Triggers (from Rise if the Separatists) and Blaster Actuating Modules, he gets four hits with a roll of 4 advantages (with the cost to activate Hair Trigger reduced by 1 on each blaster that's been Jury Rigged.)

We need to know if Spitfire lets him hit 4 different targets or not.

26 minutes ago, StriderZessei said:

Necro-bumping this thread because our group had the same question.

Our Gunslinger/Modder has a pair of Nova Vipers that he Tinkered and Jury Rigged, so with Custom Grips, Hair Triggers (from Rise if the Separatists) and Blaster Actuating Modules, he gets four hits with a roll of 4 advantages (with the cost to activate Hair Trigger reduced by 1 on each blaster that's been Jury Rigged.)

We need to know if Spitfire lets him hit 4 different targets or not.

No. Spitfire allows 1 additional target with secondary weapon

And here I thought this thread was about my British cousin. Oh well.

The way I read it, Spitfire simply allows you to allocate your single (per additional weapon) second hit from dual wielding to a target disparate from the original target. From there, you can trigger Linked/Auto-fire on either weapon to score additional hits.

Example: Gunslinger dual wielding HH-50 heavy blaster pistols adds 1 to his difficulty. His rolls nets 1 Success, 6 Advantage. He spends 2 Advantage to hit with the second weapon, but uses Spitfire to hit a different target than the original one. We'll call it target "B." He hits target "A" with his primary, and hits target "B" with his secondary. From there, he triggers linked on his primary, dealing a second hit to target "A" and then he triggers Linked on his secondary weapon, dealing a second hit to target "B."

3 hours ago, P-47 Thunderbolt said:

And here I thought this thread was about my British cousin. Oh well.

The way I read it, Spitfire simply allows you to allocate your single (per additional weapon) second hit from dual wielding to a target disparate from the original target. From there, you can trigger Linked/Auto-fire on either weapon to score additional hits.

Example: Gunslinger dual wielding HH-50 heavy blaster pistols adds 1 to his difficulty. His rolls nets 1 Success, 6 Advantage. He spends 2 Advantage to hit with the second weapon, but uses Spitfire to hit a different target than the original one. We'll call it target "B." He hits target "A" with his primary, and hits target "B" with his secondary. From there, he triggers linked on his primary, dealing a second hit to target "A" and then he triggers Linked on his secondary weapon, dealing a second hit to target "B."

I like it!

I might be bad at explaining my groups interpretation of this ability.

I read Spitfire a lot differently then most or my book is misprint.

full text for Spitfire - After the character makes a successful combined check with two range (light) weapons, each additional hit generated as part of the attack can be allocated to any other target within range of the weapon.

So I read it as after both weapons hit, instead of adding successes to damage except for the initial successes for first target. All successes after the first can be allocated to target other enemies. So if I get 4 successes total the first one is for the initial target with both your guns and then you can spend the other 3 success to target 3 other enemies. The damage would be with two 7 damage blasters would be 8 (or 11) twice to main target then 8 to three other targets from the other 3 success you used to hit the other targets with.

Basically your burning successes away from the attack to target more enemies in one turn so gunslinger version of Auto-fire.

This is how me and from gaming group translated it. just the damage part is kind of confusing.

A different interpretation I just now thought of this while typing other stuff, I get 4 successes and hit main target with both blaster for 11 damage twice and then with the three additional successes I target 3 other opponents for 11 damage each. This one makes the most since to me for how this works, but the word other target (wording is referring to just one additional target) contradicts the each additional hit generated part.

The dice setup would probably be whoever is hardest to target as dice pool.

This is how I believe the power should work but if it only hits 2 targets it is really a weak ability and not worth 25 xp. maybe 15 xp.

No, you don't split Success like that. The only way you get extra hits is through the expenditure of Advantage, and all Success apply to each hit.

I do agree with you (somewhat) about it not being all that great, but it is useful.

One point that may make it considerably more powerful, is that as far as I can tell, it doesn't make allowances for difficulty of the target (unless it has a "targets of equal or lesser difficulty" clause [which it probably does]), so, in theory, you could target a minion at Short range, hit with 2 Advantage, and then hit a Adversary 4 Nemesis for free.

By the ability the only expenditure of Advantage is for the two weapon fighting.

The ability only requires you to get one extra success to use the ability.

The problem is: the part that says each additional hit generated as part of attack can be allocated to any other target (what I thought means more than one). which I believe refers to successes not advantage. One extra success with attack lets you target another opponent.

The first part misleads you thinking each extra success is an additional target, but the ability is changed when other target is added since it means singular which voids the first part out mostly. Unless there saying I can fire my blaster at someone and just use the success to hit and then I can choose to use extra successes to target second enemy.

Like: 2 blasters 7 damage each with paired. I attack and get 5 success and two advantage, activate the advantage so I can hit with both guns use 1 success to shoot main target so 8 damage twice with blasters and then secondary target I deal 11 damage because I transferred 4 successes to second target.

I find it weird how many ways I can translate Spitfire by how they wrote it.

The ability about being able to hit nemesis easier would make this more powerful.

The wording is what really kills this ability. my GM really hates the wording. How I wrote it above is how me and my GM's figured it worked. We will probably discuss it and figure out how we prefer it.

I know what I'm writing is weird its just wanting to get a better understanding of how to properly use this ability since it should be The Gunslingers big things they are known for.

You don't spend Advantage. They are used to calculate your damage. That's it. Triggering different hits (Linked, Auto-fire, etc) costs Advantage, not Success.

I don't know how you read so much into it, that took a lot of assumptions.

Yea sorry I'm bad at that.

Yea sorry i know with linked and auto-fire advantage is required. Spitfire, advantage is not required by how it is written since it is an ability that is yours. Just an extra success to target other enemy. If that is correct.

Ability activation replaces rules in book since to activate you are only required to succeed in paired attack and have at minimum 1 extra successes.

Hopefully I'm not thinking still too hard

1 minute ago, Pantherian said:

Yea sorry I'm bad at that.

Yea sorry i know with linked and auto-fire advantage is required. Spitfire, advantage is not required by how it is written since it is an ability that is yours. Just an extra success to target other enemy. If that is correct.

Ability activation replaces rules in book since to activate you are only required to succeed in paired attack and have at minimum 1 extra successes.

Hopefully I'm not thinking still too hard

Your main issues you are having here is that successes are not hits.

Quote

After the character makes a successful co mbined check with two range (light) weapons, each additional hit generated as part of the attack can be allocated to any other target within range of the weapon.

Spitfire lets you allocate extra hits to other targets. The little star symbols on the dice are not hits, they're successes. Hits are seperate attacks bought with Advantages via the Linked and Autofire qualities.