If you put an Autofire weapon in your secondary hand, you can't activate Autofire per rules.

-Qualities can not be activated for Secondary Weapons unless the Advantages are rolled and use to activate the Secondary Weapon.

-Autofire requires activation before dice rolled to be allowed to be used.

Therefore, any weapon with the qualities you want to activate before rolling must be the Primary weapon.

If you put an Autofire weapon in your secondary hand, you can't activate Autofire per rules.

-Qualities can not be activated for Secondary Weapons unless the Advantages are rolled and use to activate the Secondary Weapon.

-Autofire requires activation before dice rolled to be allowed to be used.

Therefore, any weapon with the qualities you want to activate before rolling must be the Primary weapon.

That's not accurate. All autofire says is that it increases the difficulty of the dice pool, it says nothing about having to be the primary weapon in a two weapon scenario. Two weapon combat states the shooter chooses which weapon is primary

Best to just wait on the dev answer.

Edge of the Empire, page 211, last paragraph for Two Weapon Combat......

"If he succeeds, he hits with his primary weapon as normal. He may also spend 2 Advantage or a Triumph to hit with his secondary weapon as well. If both weapons hit, he may spend additional Advantage and Triumph to activate qualities from either weapon. Each hit deals its base damage +1 per uncancelled success."

Autofire is a weapon quality. With the above rules, Autofire can NOT be activated on the secondary weapon. This is because the difficulty increase is the trigger for activating the quality. Now, there could be the work around where one adds the Autofire difficulty to a non-Autofire Primary Weapon, but can't activate the rest of Autofire until the Secondary Weapon is activated first. But that's not the way the rules are written.

This can also be solved by using the Auotfire weapon as Primary to start. However, there could be better qualities one might want to use on the Secondary. That's the dilemma the player must face.

The point to all this is to clarify rules and uniform gameplay.

I don't think there's anything broken about increasing the Difficulty for the autofire off-hand weapon, and hoping for the advantage to pull it off. But I'd also be throwing in whatever Setbacks the autofire pistol has for being Inaccurate, or having a damage-increasing attachment No getting around those just because it's in your off-hand.

You're stating something that does not exist in the rule, just be

Edge of the Empire, page 211, last paragraph for Two Weapon Combat......

"If he succeeds, he hits with his primary weapon as normal. He may also spend 2 Advantage or a Triumph to hit with his secondary weapon as well. If both weapons hit, he may spend additional Advantage and Triumph to activate qualities from either weapon. Each hit deals its base damage +1 per uncancelled success."

Autofire is a weapon quality. With the above rules, Autofire can NOT be activated on the secondary weapon. This is because the difficulty increase is the trigger for activating the quality. Now, there could be the work around where one adds the Autofire difficulty to a non-Autofire Primary Weapon, but can't activate the rest of Autofire until the Secondary Weapon is activated first. But that's not the way the rules are written.

This can also be solved by using the Auotfire weapon as Primary to start. However, there could be better qualities one might want to use on the Secondary. That's the dilemma the player must face.

The point to all this is to clarify rules and uniform gameplay.

You're making stuff up that simply is not stated in the rules. The trigger for activating a weapon quality, auto fire included, is having sufficient advantages or triumphs to do so, that is all. Using auto fire increases difficulty by 1, that is all. There is nothing that says an auto fire weapon can't be the secondary weapon.

Edge of the Empire, page 211, last paragraph for Two Weapon Combat......

"If he succeeds, he hits with his primary weapon as normal. He may also spend 2 Advantage or a Triumph to hit with his secondary weapon as well. If both weapons hit, he may spend additional Advantage and Triumph to activate qualities from either weapon. Each hit deals its base damage +1 per uncancelled success."

Autofire is a weapon quality. With the above rules, Autofire can NOT be activated on the secondary weapon. This is because the difficulty increase is the trigger for activating the quality. Now, there could be the work around where one adds the Autofire difficulty to a non-Autofire Primary Weapon, but can't activate the rest of Autofire until the Secondary Weapon is activated first. But that's not the way the rules are written.

This can also be solved by using the Auotfire weapon as Primary to start. However, there could be better qualities one might want to use on the Secondary. That's the dilemma the player must face.

The point to all this is to clarify rules and uniform gameplay.

The difficulty increase for Autofire gets factored into the comparison of the two weapons difficulty at the start of the process.

Main Gun: PP

Off Hand Gun: PP

Either gun attempts Autofire: PPP

Two Weapon without Autofire: PPP

Two Weapon with Autofire: PPPP

But I agree, mechanically, Autofire is superior to Two Weapons. I don't see why Spitfire would be written to make Autofire Pistols better. But it's important to know how it plays with other effects.

I can't wait to have a Dev clear this up. My Gunslinger PC is getting pretty close to this talent.

Edge of the Empire, page 211, last paragraph for Two Weapon Combat......

"If he succeeds, he hits with his primary weapon as normal. He may also spend 2 Advantage or a Triumph to hit with his secondary weapon as well. If both weapons hit, he may spend additional Advantage and Triumph to activate qualities from either weapon. Each hit deals its base damage +1 per uncancelled success."

Autofire is a weapon quality. With the above rules, Autofire can NOT be activated on the secondary weapon.

You guys seem to be talking past each other.

If you did not factor Autofire into the difficulty of the attack, then you can't trigger Autofire on the secondary weapon...just like any normal shot. If you did factor Autofire into the difficulty of the attack, then you can trigger Autofire on either weapon if the weapon has that quality.

Edge of the Empire, page 211, last paragraph for Two Weapon Combat......

"If he succeeds, he hits with his primary weapon as normal. He may also spend 2 Advantage or a Triumph to hit with his secondary weapon as well. If both weapons hit, he may spend additional Advantage and Triumph to activate qualities from either weapon. Each hit deals its base damage +1 per uncancelled success."

Autofire is a weapon quality. With the above rules, Autofire can NOT be activated on the secondary weapon.

You guys seem to be talking past each other.

If you did not factor Autofire into the difficulty of the attack, then you can't trigger Autofire on the secondary weapon...just like any normal shot. If you did factor Autofire into the difficulty of the attack, then you can trigger Autofire on either weapon if the weapon has that quality.

I'm not talking past anyone. He is stating an autofire weapon can't be a secondary weapon or activated as a secondary weapon and that is fiction he is creating.

I'm stating the rules as written. (May not be the spirit or intention at all times, but as written).

Edge of the Empire, page 155, paragraph 2

Autorfire (Active)

"Attacking with a weapon on Auto-fire is generally less accurate and the attacker must increase the difficulty of the attack check by a Difficulty Die. The user may choose to not use the Auto-fire quality on a weapon; in this case, he cannot trigger the quality but also does not suffer the aforementioned penalty."

Auto-fire is an Active Quality, which means it must be activated. Two Weapon Combat states (see previous post for rules as written) that the Secondary Weapon must be activated BEFORE any of that weapons qualities can be activated. Therefore, Auto-fire can NOT be activated in the rules as written as the Auto-fire quality starts by "triggering the increase difficulty".

I know this seems dumb. I know there is an easy work around by adding the Auto-fire difficulty regardless if the Primary Weapon has to for 'future possible triggering'. However, that is not Rules as Written. And yes, we need someone to clear this up. However, I'd rather exhaust the possible perceptions of the rules so when an official ruling comes down, they'll have seen these questions this post (and others) have presented.

Auto-fire is an Active Quality, which means it must be activated. Two Weapon Combat states (see previous post for rules as written) that the Secondary Weapon must be activated BEFORE any of that weapons qualities can be activated. Therefore, Auto-fire can NOT be activated in the rules as written as the Auto-fire quality starts by "triggering the increase difficulty".

That's a time warp. By that logic you could never trigger Autofire on any weapon at all because you only get to use it if you get the advantages to use it, but it's too late because you didn't increase the difficulty.

Obviously Autofire has two components: increase the difficulty (which is determined when you assemble the dice pool); and get extra hits per 2A after you resolve the dice. The second depends on the first. You're not "triggering" a quality, you're just assembling the dice pool.

So for two weapon combat, wanting to use Autofire requires factoring it in when determining the final difficulty. Once you do that you're golden.

Edit: in other words, I think you're taking the phrase "triggering a quality" way too literally.

You're making rules up, all Active means is that advantages have to be spent to cause them to function, it's not some chronological linear sequence that has to occur in order.

I presented rules are written in the books. I have put the pieces together. I have explained my stance with examples that prove my point. To dismiss them altogether and blast my posts is getting downright rude.

For Two Weapon Combat, you CAN NOT trigger the Qualities of a Secondary Weapon until after the 2 Advantages have been spent to hit with that weapon. With Auto-Fire, you must Increase the Difficulty as a trigger for the multiple hits. By the way the rules are written, you CAN NOT add the Difficulty die to the roll for Auto-fire from the Secondary Weapon, since you CAN NOT activate any qualities of that weapon. This is rules as written. (but not as intended? I'd say so.)

You don't get to the Superior or Accurate bonus from a Secondary Weapon until that weapon activates. Same for Auto-fire.

You can't spend advantage before it is rolled. You can't activate the Secondary Weapon or any Qualities it has until you spend Advantage. This all comes after you have assembled your dice pool and rolled. That is why Auto-fire on the Secondary Weapon can NOT be activated. Rules As Written. If you can't acknowledge that, then you aren't even play the game by the rules in the book and we really are talking at two different things here.

Now granted, I'm NOT for this. I am merely pointing out the way things are written. It' is printed in all the Core Rulebooks. You don't like it, great (I don't either). But to merely dismiss it or say I'm making things up is false.

{edit} I just seen something on the D20 Radio Forums that noted Sam Stewart confirming that only the Primary Weapon Qualities (either bonus or not) count when rolling for Two Weapon Combat. If that's on these forums somewhere, then we have an official word on the subject.

Two- Weapon Fighting

Question asked by OggDude :

I have a question about two- weapon combat. In many cases, certain skills or certain weapon s will have various modifiers applied to them, such as boost dice, setback dice, or the ability to remove setback dice. How are these applied when you use two- weapon combat?

Example 1: You're shooting two blasters. One of them has the actuating module, while the other one doesn't. For the first weapon , you add a setback die to all attacks, but not for the second weapon . How would this apply if 1) the first blaster is your primary weapon , or 2) the second blaster is your primary weapon ? Or does it matter?

Example 2: You're attacking with both a vibroknife and your fists (unarmed). The first uses Melee, the second uses Brawl. For whatever reason (talent, weapon mod, etc), your vibroknife attack removes a setback, and your unarmed adds a boost. How would these features be applied, again, with 1) the vibroknife as your primary, or 2) unarmed as your primary?

The same question could go for multiple modifier dice. If one attack adds 2 boosts, and the other adds 1, which applies? If one adds 2 setback, and the other 1 setback, which applies? Or maybe there's a combination of boosts, setbacks, and the ability to remove setbacks, divided out in different numbers between the attacks. How are these situations resolved?

Answered by Sam Stewart :

The weapon used sets the pool. The second weapon is only used if you gain two Advantage to trigger the second hit. So only the first weapon sets the pool. So if the second weapon has penalties or bonuses that would affect the pool, such as adding Boost or Setback dice, these would not apply. However, if the second weapon has penalties or bonuses that are applied after the pool has been rolled, then those penalties or bonuses do apply if you trigger the second weapon to hit. So If your second weapon is Accurate, you won't get Boost dice. But if your second weapon has a laser sight that gives you an Advantage on a successful attack, then if you're successful and you trigger the second hit, then you gain the additional Advantage as well.

Official answer on Two Weapon Combat and Weapon Qualities from the mouth of Sam Stewart from the FFG Developer Answered Questions.

Sorry you feel that way 2P51.

My goal here is not to slander or slight anyone who plays by a differing ruleset, but to clarify the official rules and uniform the gameplay for everyone to be on the same page. I've run a lot of convention games over the years and found this to be a constant problem. (Not for FFG really, they are pretty good about this.)

And like I've said before, I don't really care for the way this rule is presented, but I do understand the reason. (Ease of play, lack of tracking items)

And like I've said before, I don't really care for the way this rule is presented, but I do understand the reason. (Ease of play, lack of tracking items)

I would be tempted to let it pass if a player wanted to do it, but to be devil's advocate against myself...there aren't too many (if any) pistols that are Accurate and Autofire. So maybe the intent is you have to have Autofire on the primary weapon as a way of preventing people using a super accurate weapon, even at +1 difficulty, to get Autofire on the second weapon.

Edit: so in the end I actually wouldn't mind if the rule is that Autofire can't be used only on a secondary weapon.

The weird thing is that ALL Qualities of the Second Weapon are null until the Advantage is used to activate it. So does that mean Paired weapon only needs to be on One (Primary) weapon? It negates any bonuses (like Accurate) but and penalties (like from Blaster Actuating Module) are removed as well. It doesn't feel right. It mechanically looks beardy and broken.

Personally, I'm all for Increasing difficulty from Auto-fire from Secondary Weapon, but as written, that's not the way it is suppose to be done. This leaves a lot of scenarios that can lead to ultimately min/maxing with your weapons and having the awkward slugger able to hit easier than the nimble and precise.

2P51 is trying to highlight the following:

1. EotE CRB p155 Under the Weapon Quality Auto-fire description

"Attacking with a weapon on Auto-Fire is generally less accurate and the attacker must increase the difficulty of the check by D. The user may choose to not use the Auto-fire quality on a weapon; in this case, he cannot trigger the quality but also does not suffer the aforementioned penalty."

So if you want to hold down the trigger then add a purple to the roll, you still haven't hit multiple times yet though.

2. EotE CRB p211 Under the heading Two-Weapon combat

"He then compares the difficulty of the two combat checks he would make with each of his two weapons to hit his target, and selects the check with the higher base difficulty (more D). He then increases [paraphrasing] by 1 if each weapon uses the same skill, 2 if they use different, He then makes the check."

This makes it clear that determining difficulty has nothing to do with which is primary and which is secondary. So if your secondary is an AutoFire then it's increased difficulty may make it the difficulty of the check. It does not exclude you from using the Auto-fire quality.

It continues:

"If he succeeds, he hits with his primary weapon as normal. He may spend AA or T to hit with his secondary weapon as well. If both weapons hit he may spend additional A or T to activate qualities from either weapon."

This is saying before activating any weapon qualities you must spend the AA or T to hit with both weapons. I'd doesn't exclude the Auto-fire fire from being triggered, so long as enough A or T are rolled on the check.

The only time it actually matters which weapon is Primary and which is secondary is once you have rolled the dice. And it really only has any effect if you don't get AA or T on the roll to hit as your only going to be hitting with your primary weapon in that.

attack.

Also important to note that if 1 of the weapons isn't being used there is no penalty (seems obvious) so a pistol in 1 hand for ranged then a Lightsaber in the other of Engaged is probably the best way to go both thematically and mechanically

Let's go through an example:

4 Brawn, 4 ranks in Lightsaber

5 Agility, 3 ranks in Ranged(Light)

Target is Engaged, 1 Defence

Primary is a Lightsaber, Difficulty of DS

Secondary is an AutoFire Blaster Pistol, which I want to try to use, Difficulty of DDDS

Building the pool:

4 is the lowest of the relevant Characteristics

3 is the lowest of the Skill ranks

Higest difficulty is DDDS

increase difficulty by 2 due to different skills for the weapons

I'll spend a manoeuvre to Aim

pool is therefore:

APPPBDDDDDS

If I hit then my Lightsaber damage is dealt first.

If I have AA or a T then the Blaster Pistol hits

If I got another AA or T then I could activate AutoFire for a second hit with the pistol.

In this example if I swapped primary and secondary weapons I would hit with the pistol first then the Lightsaber.

If I choose not to try to AutoFire then the dice pool would be APPPBDDDDS

If I was using 2 pistols the pool would be AAPPPBDDDS

If I was using 2 Lightsabers (lucky me!) the pool would be PPPPBDDS [EDIT: this should be PPPPBDDDS, as Melee has a base difficulty of DD]

If I only used the Auto-fire pistol and didn't TWC the pool would be AAPPPBDDDS

Note (back to the OP) the only time I could hit a second target with this combination would be once I activated the Auto-fire quality and only with the Blaster Pistol. With Spitfire I could hit a second target when I activated the TWC rules with my first 2 advantage or T.

personaly I think thematically attacking with Lightsaber in 1 hand and Pistol in the other is cool, but super hard to do, I wouldn't even bother trying to AutoFire as its just too difficult. And what's the point of wielding 2 AutoFire pistols when 1 will do the same.

Edit: of course Spitfire only works when you have 2 Ranged(Light) weapons equipped

Just to be an a$$ ...I think you forgot a D for being engaged in melee on the autofiring blater pistol

But thanks for that summary of the rules.

Just to be an a$$ ...I think you forgot a D for being engaged in melee on the autofiring blater pistol

But thanks for that summary of the rules.

Lol. Isn't it D base, D for engaged Ranged(Light), D for AutoFire = 3D?

I'm pretty sure you add a D to ranged attack check when engaged in melee. So short range is D, but engaged is DD for light ranged weapons and DDD for heavy ranged weapons, and gunnery weapons cannot generally be fired while engaged in melee - I believe. So yeah, I miscounted ... Gah!

But I'm not done with my burning, killing and undermining criticism of the inaccuracy of your post, because Lightsaber difficulty should be DDS, not DS ...

*stalks off*

Argggg you got me!!!!

Richard and Jeger, you guys are onto how we are all probably playing it, but that's not the rules as written nor as clarified by the FAQ from Sam Stewart.

The rules state that the Secondary Weapon can not activate any qualities. Which means any qualities that weapon has can't be used until the weapon becomes active, which can only happen after the die roll. As written, you can't add the Difficulty Die for Auto-fire from the Secondary Weapon, because Auto-fire is a weapon quality.

The only thing that would make it possible is to roll a separate single Difficulty Die after using 2 Advantages to activate the Secondary Weapon. The only thing that could alter this rule is if there is an official wording from FFG to allow Auto-fire to work the way we are all playing it with Two Weapon Combat.

But you don't activate AutoFire until after the roll, the increase in difficulty comes from simply using the weapon. AutoFire has 2 components in its description "are you using an auto fire weapon?" And "you can activate AutoFire by spending advantage". The first part has nothing to do with activation, it's setting the base difficulty of the attack.

But according to Sam Stewart's FAQ Answer, you can't use Auto-fire. Auto-fire adds dice to the Dice Pool. Only the Primary Weapon can do that in a Two Weapon Combat situation.

Answered by Sam Stewart :

The weapon used sets the pool. The second weapon is only used if you gain two Advantage to trigger the second hit. So only the first weapon sets the pool. So if the second weapon has penalties or bonuses that would affect the pool, such as adding Boost or Setback dice, these would not apply.