Stop comparing X-Wing to other miniatures or card games...

Yes, because clearly comparing apples to apples is just silly and completely uncalled for!!!

They ARE getting more expensive

The price of expansions has by and large not changed since the first X-Wing expansion. Waves still cost the same based on what you're getting. Yes there's $20 expansions now, but those ships are a good bit larger, and have nearly twice as much cardboard in them.

Take Wave 8 for example... All the small ships still cost $15, other then the Misthunter, which like the K-Wing or Starviper is quite a bit larger then a standard model. The Ghost will be more expensive, but it's nearly the size of a Epic ship, so that's also understandable.

So no, they are not getting more expensive. They are simply adding in some new ships that are quite a bit larger and naturally cost more.

and they ARE not cheap for what you are receiving

And you base that on just what exactly? The cost of a micromachine or a hotwheels? Perhaps you're comparing it to the cost of the raw materials?

I mean if we can't compare the cost of X-Wing to other games, then exactly what are you drawing your comparison to? Because what you said is a completely relative statement, and that means it has to be in comparison to something else.

I'm talking about the raw materials. A hunk of colored plastic, some cardboard, and some more cardboard. Or, comparing it to other forms of enduring entertainment, like a video game, movie, or book. To me, it's to the point where it's like a video game series trying to squeeze way too much out of a single franchise. If it were more spread out, it wouldn't raise concerns of becoming stale or being a pure money grab.

And comparing it to other games is stupid because not everyone cares about, or has played, other minis games. Just because a large frappucino costs like $6 from Starbucks doesn't mean that I should buy X-Wings instead because clearly you get more enjoyment out of the ship than the drink in the long-run. Likewise, just because another miniature game from another developer for another fan base (It's not apples to apples at ALL) costs more than this one, I should buy this one. Apples to apples is comparing previous waves to this upcoming wave, and the frequency of releases. In which case, it's way more, way more often right now.

The cognitive dissonance happening between paragraphs one and two is kinda hilarious. It's expensive compared to these things I consider cheap! But it's stupid to compare it to other things that are more expensive because reasons!

Apples to Apples is actually a really fun party game. I like it a lot.

Stop comparing X-Wing to other miniatures or card games...

Yes, because clearly comparing apples to apples is just silly and completely uncalled for!!!

They ARE getting more expensive

The price of expansions has by and large not changed since the first X-Wing expansion. Waves still cost the same based on what you're getting. Yes there's $20 expansions now, but those ships are a good bit larger, and have nearly twice as much cardboard in them.

Take Wave 8 for example... All the small ships still cost $15, other then the Misthunter, which like the K-Wing or Starviper is quite a bit larger then a standard model. The Ghost will be more expensive, but it's nearly the size of a Epic ship, so that's also understandable.

So no, they are not getting more expensive. They are simply adding in some new ships that are quite a bit larger and naturally cost more.

and they ARE not cheap for what you are receiving

And you base that on just what exactly? The cost of a micromachine or a hotwheels? Perhaps you're comparing it to the cost of the raw materials?

I mean if we can't compare the cost of X-Wing to other games, then exactly what are you drawing your comparison to? Because what you said is a completely relative statement, and that means it has to be in comparison to something else.

I'm talking about the raw materials. A hunk of colored plastic, some cardboard, and some more cardboard. Or, comparing it to other forms of enduring entertainment, like a video game, movie, or book. To me, it's to the point where it's like a video game series trying to squeeze way too much out of a single franchise. If it were more spread out, it wouldn't raise concerns of becoming stale or being a pure money grab.

And comparing it to other games is stupid because not everyone cares about, or has played, other minis games. Just because a large frappucino costs like $6 from Starbucks doesn't mean that I should buy X-Wings instead because clearly you get more enjoyment out of the ship than the drink in the long-run. Likewise, just because another miniature game from another developer for another fan base (It's not apples to apples at ALL) costs more than this one, I should buy this one. Apples to apples is comparing previous waves to this upcoming wave, and the frequency of releases. In which case, it's way more, way more often right now.

The cognitive dissonance happening between paragraphs one and two is kinda hilarious. It's expensive compared to these things I consider cheap! But it's stupid to compare it to other things that are more expensive because reasons!

First off, that's not what cognitive dissonance is.

Secondly, he was asking how I was comparing the two things, and I replied to both alternatives. Nice try.

Beyond that, attempting to argue material cost of an item against the final price is, in a word, stupid. It ignores every value-added step that's taken to shape raw material into said toy plastic space ship. It's frankly insulting to anyone who's part of the creative process, manufacturing team (regardless of where they are - they're still people working to make a living), distribution network, and ultimately the retail sales locations.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the last step in the chain. That's often where the biggest comparative markup over previous cost is done. Most main-line retail is generally around double the cost to get your retail price. Clothes are usually 50%, books are generally around 40%, and most non-discount based game shops are at least 25% to 30%. But yeah, it's THE MAN that's trying to get you down and steal all our moneyz. Sheesh. People trying to earn a living. What right do they think THEY have for trying to get by?

Beyond that, attempting to argue material cost of an item against the final price is, in a word, stupid. It ignores every value-added step that's taken to shape raw material into said toy plastic space ship. It's frankly insulting to anyone who's part of the creative process, manufacturing team (regardless of where they are - they're still people working to make a living), distribution network, and ultimately the retail sales locations.

If you want to blame anyone, blame the last step in the chain. That's often where the biggest comparative markup over previous cost is done. Most main-line retail is generally around double the cost to get your retail price. Clothes are usually 50%, books are generally around 40%, and most non-discount based game shops are at least 25% to 30%. But yeah, it's THE MAN that's trying to get you down and steal all our moneyz. Sheesh. People trying to earn a living. What right do they think THEY have for trying to get by?

THIS!! THIS RITE HERE!!!

FFG's method of distributing upgrade cards is friendly to players who buy at least one of everything, and not particularly friendly to anyone else. You'll get no argument from me there.

I think the problem is that FFGs upgrades model is (at least from a wargaming perspective) very unusual. If I had to buy some Greek Hoplites before I could use Gladii on my Romans, I'd be very annoyed. Likewise, having to buy a Starviper to put an Accuracy Corrector on my TIE Advanced is... frustrating.

The problem is compounded by FFGs needless (IMO) requirement for multiple copies of redundant upgrade cards at tournaments. So not only do I need to buy a Starviper to get my accuracy corrector, I need to buy multiple copies of it for... reasons.

This can be surprising and confusing for new players. And yes, they often use dramatic phrasing like FFG is MAKING them buy ships, or the are FORCED to or that they NEED to. But it doesn't help when anyone questioning the issue is jumped on by the other forum members who start shouting ENTITLED! ENTITLED! at them. They're confused and probably a bit upset and then they are faced with antogonistic attitudes from their fellow gamers so naturally things escalate.

I just think that instead of berating anyone who dares question the sales tactics of our benevolent FFG overlords, we'd all have an easier time of things if we just agreed that their method of distributing upgrades could be friendlier, and then moved on.

It sucks that upgrades are often bundled with ships we don't want. But it is what it is, and it isn't going to change, so we should all just move along.

I love this game but I hope the Waves won't get any bigger because I wanna pay off my credit card before Wave 11. I think waiting for the Amazon price competition wars to breakout will work better next time- I could save about $60 if I wait a week or two after release. I am still praying for a pre-Christmas availabilty... so I can tell Santa Claus in time.

I buy 1 of each expansion and then beef up my Scum fleet as needed but I realize that other players/collectors have different buying needs so...

How much will Wave8 cost you?

Yeah $200 for what you want in a wave, which we get about twice a year, is still less than what other games cost every 3 months to stay current.

$200 messily little bucks for all dat glory... I call that a bargain!

Exactly....just look at those sweet pre-painted and pre-assembled little ships of goodness!

**** you FFG for making me fall in loves wit-chas!

First off, that's not what cognitive dissonance is.

Secondly, he was asking how I was comparing the two things, and I replied to both alternatives. Nice try.

My understanding of the phrase is 'having two inconsistent beliefs at the same time'

I applied that to you comparing the cost of x-wing to something to say it's too expensive. Then saying comparing it to other things to say it's cheap is stupid. These statements are inconsistent and contradictory. Googling the term gives me a definition that corresponds to my belief.

If it means something else, please explain. I do like learning new things.

First off, that's not what cognitive dissonance is.

Secondly, he was asking how I was comparing the two things, and I replied to both alternatives. Nice try.

My understanding of the phrase is 'having two inconsistent beliefs at the same time'

I applied that to you comparing the cost of x-wing to something to say it's too expensive. Then saying comparing it to other things to say it's cheap is stupid. These statements are inconsistent and contradictory. Googling the term gives me a definition that corresponds to my belief.

If it means something else, please explain. I do like learning new things.

The issue is that you're assuming I believe both things. I don't believe both things; I was describing how my statements could hypothetically apply to either of the suggested comparisons.

Cognitive dissonance also applies to a wide range of circumstances and situations beyond simple incongruencies.

And no, I don't actually think that the raw materials vs. the final MSRP is a reasonable argument, that's idiotic if you know anything about capitalism or manufacturing. But I do think that we all overpay a lot for material things, and it's only our passion that justifies it in such niche hobbies as this one.

Hey Mods can we get a lock on this? We have better places to discuss FFG business practices than an FFG board.

First off, that's not what cognitive dissonance is.

Secondly, he was asking how I was comparing the two things, and I replied to both alternatives. Nice try.

My understanding of the phrase is 'having two inconsistent beliefs at the same time'

I applied that to you comparing the cost of x-wing to something to say it's too expensive. Then saying comparing it to other things to say it's cheap is stupid. These statements are inconsistent and contradictory. Googling the term gives me a definition that corresponds to my belief.

If it means something else, please explain. I do like learning new things.

The issue is that you're assuming I believe both things. I don't believe both things; I was describing how my statements could hypothetically apply to either of the suggested comparisons.

Cognitive dissonance also applies to a wide range of circumstances and situations beyond simple incongruencies.

And no, I don't actually think that the raw materials vs. the final MSRP is a reasonable argument, that's idiotic if you know anything about capitalism or manufacturing. But I do think that we all overpay a lot for material things, and it's only our passion that justifies it in such niche hobbies as this one.

So, my usage of cognitive dissonance was correct? And yes I know it applies to other situations. And it was only not actual cognitive dissonance because you were arguing something you know is dumb for the sake of arguing?

I feel like that fits one of the many definitions of trolling.

No. But arguing semantics and dancing around the actual point is no better.

As an example, here in Oz, we pay through the nose.

• Correlian Corvette about $120 AUD
• Imp Raider " $130 "
• Core Set/S&V " $65 "
• Rebel Transport " $90 "
• YT1300/Imp Shuttle " $48 "
• Tie/X-Wing (etc) " $25 "
• StarViper " $32 "
• Aces " $48 "

So buy what you want/can afford. No one is making you buy everything.

So yeah, not cheap as some. But that's the same for everything. Everything costs more here in Oz. Cost of living on a remote island. And before you say buy overseas online, shipping to Oz is horrible. And they're just passing a law stating that we'll have to pay GST for a lot of things bought on line. Yay.

Yeah, the minimum wage is Australia is twice what it is in the US so I'm not very sympathetic.

Cost of living is also much higher. But yeah, we get universal healthcare and great weather so we got that going for us, which is nice

This could be one of the greatest threads in the history of nerd forums.

This is why I love nerds.

This topic has gone from expressing displeasure at possible purchasing price of ships, to making arguments against actual dictionary definitions, to unsuccessful internet bullying of FFG detractors, to debating the cost of raw materials in manufacturing, to arguing psychology, to insulting Australians.

If only we could invoke Godwin's Law, then the circle will be complete.

Don't know as if I care to get wave 8 the second it's out. Scum is scum. Ghost looks interesting and different with that shuttle with it. I will get the Prototype right off the bat though. Think the Gozanti can wait.

Not sure about the Episode 7 ships. I have 2 new cores so 4 TIE/fo and 2 T-70s. Really finding it tough to work in more than 1 TIE because of their cost. And the T-70s have the same issue as T-65s but no old names in new ships to push them into a list. Hard to build a list around them.

Anyway, I'll be getting the Rebels stuff, the Gozanti, at least one T70 (purely for the X Wing buff) and that's about it.

Apologists gonna apologize.

Reading comprehension isn't your thing, I guess. I'm done here.

Nothing wrong with the diction in Funk's post!

FFG's method of distributing upgrade cards is friendly to players who buy at least one of everything, and not particularly friendly to anyone else. You'll get no argument from me there.

<snip>

It sucks that upgrades are often bundled with ships we don't want. <snip>

That you don't want. I want them all. Generally in multiples.

FFG could be nicer in the way they bundle their products. They could be much nicer about it. Bundling the TIE Advance fix with the Raider was a particularly diabolical decision on their part. But according to the one-eyed folks on this forum, we should all just be happy about it.

FFG's method of distributing upgrade cards is friendly to players who buy at least one of everything, and not particularly friendly to anyone else. You'll get no argument from me there.

What's irritating is when people come on here and present it as (a) a massive injustice and (b) some kind of surprise. I'm forced to buy two StarVipers! It's cruel that they make standard dogfight players buy the Raider!

It's like watching my toddler throw a half-hour tantrum over the fact that he doesn't get to eat watermelon and nothing but watermelon for breakfast: his complaint is valid (he wants watermelon and can't have it), but the level of drama and investment is way out of scale with the actual injury, and it's not as if he was allowed to have watermelon for breakfast the last time he asked, or the time before that.

I don't know, maybe forums for Magic players regularly see people who are shocked--nay, scandalized--to find that cards are distributed in random packs. But over here it's pretty tiresome. If you want to play casually, just proxy the upgrades you want. If you want to play competitively, your options are either to go ahead and adopt the one-of-everything collecting model or to start borrowing/trading/buying the things you think you need as singles. Those are the same choices you had in Waves 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6.

Your draconian abuse of your watermelon power has been noted.

After they have dealt with FFG the UN will be around to visit you...

FFG's method of distributing upgrade cards is friendly to players who buy at least one of everything, and not particularly friendly to anyone else. You'll get no argument from me there.

<snip>

It sucks that upgrades are often bundled with ships we don't want. <snip>

That you don't want. I want them all. Generally in multiples.

We need lots and lots of 'em!

I'm not going to take sides here, but I would like to put this out there:

"If you don't like it, then don't buy it." is a perfectly valid response to somebody saying "I don't want to buy this epic ship", or "I don't like cinematic play" or "Epic ships cost too much" etc.

It is not a perfectly valid response to somebody saying "I don't want to buy this epic ship just for a single card to make my own TIE Advanced finally viable."

That being said, if you play casual then you can just proxy cards. If you play competitively then perhaps (and this is what FFG fans would argue) you should have expected this kind of pricing model for this wargame. I only have one problem with this argument: X-wing is wargame-lite and has attracted many Star Wars fans who may not have played a mini game before in their life (like me, my girlfriend, my friends). These people may be feeling a little upset that the standalone expansion they bought is practically useless in their FLGS environment without multiple other purchases (Soontir without Autothrusters and PTL etc.).

This could be one of the greatest threads in the history of nerd forums.

Wait for it...

This is why I love nerds.

...wait for it...

If only we could invoke Godwin's Law, then the circle will be complete.

...wait for it...

Anyway, I'll be getting the Rebels stuff, the Gozanti, at least one T70 (purely for the X Wing buff) and that's about it.

I will admit that reading half of this I was wondering how I ended up on tumblr. The entitlement of some people is hilarious. Ah, well. I do think we found our new green troll.

I have yet to meet a new player that expects to be able to get away without having the cards for the upgrades on a chosen ship in a tournament. Nor while teaching the game to people with past wargame experience or none at all.

And honestly if I could afford this game while being a full time student, and still have money, you might need a new hobby or take a look at your expenses again. FFG is far from perfect but I don't find them near as bad as many other companies. Hell their customer service is amazing, you don't get that to often now a days.

Hm, seems like I ran out of popcorn.

How cute, Americans complaining about FFG's prices.

Even they are BY FAR the cheapest out of anywhere in the world that i'm aware of.

Always makes me smile

Ours in the UK have a weird system whereby it's usually a 1:1 conversion rate from $ to £, even though the $ is far weaker.

Australia and that part of the world get it even worse.

Europe also costs far more than the US, as does Canada going by the Canadians i know.

Sympathy will always be thin i'm afraid.