Any ship that gets ignored is legit (which is why xizor forcing your opponent's hand by screaming IGNORE ME with his ability makes him so powerful , even if his ability never technically procs)

Sadly, this game is still very much about dice. The starviper is cool, but its basic profile is actually not that unique (3 reds is 3 reds and plenty of other ships can throw them)

Unless you're flying something incredibly unique (talking phantom, k, or turret levels) it is difficult to distinguish oneself from more efficient ships

Take the scyk, for example. Solid dial and action bar, ass stats. Seems a fair tradeoff, no?

Well, problem is there exist ships with similar dials and bars that ate FAR better priced or stated (awing and tie fighter spring immediately to mind)

I guess what I'm saying is mathwing isn't the be all end all, but it does help illustrate why people don't respect certain ships. There are quite a few ships that are both maneuverable and efficient, and some which aren't efficient at all but MANEUVERABLE to the point where inefficiency can be reliably overcome

The scyk and generic viper are manueverable, but they're not special enough relative to the game's offerings to overcome their cost problems

Which isn't to say they can't win (they still roll dice and take hits like any other ship) just that it's a more uphill battle, mathematically speaking

Of course, that view does slightly discount the cannon's range 3 advantage and the fun times of the 3-loop (plus how db enforcers are if you have an into agent around) but these are all situational benefits. They're there, but they're not as reliable an advantage as...say a range 2-3 double tap turret or being able to pawn off an uncancelled damage

Basically, what's unique to the viper and scyk doesn't really impress next to their poor stats. What do they have that let's you win that other ships don't have?

And as I just said, math wing has already ruled those ships so bad that most people forget about them and DONT exchange dice until the "bad ships" surprised them. I can't tell you how many times I've started to clean up a table and people come up to me and say "man, though starvipers are legit"

I do think the best list with them right now might be 3 cartel marauders and 2 mangled scyks.

And as I just said, math wing has already ruled those ships so bad that most people forget about them and DONT exchange dice until the "bad ships" surprised them. I can't tell you how many times I've started to clean up a table and people come up to me and say "man, though starvipers are legit"

Mathwing is pretty accurate unless you get into a reliable situation where you won't be exchanging dice...

One on one, in isolation, yes.

Point for point, five on two, in an actual game situation where positioning, blocking and set up actually matters... well, that's a different matter. Fifteen dice (minimum) behind five attacks will cause problems for many a two-three ship build, regardless of pilot skill or movement shenanigans.

Pretty sure the results are demonstrative on the Starviper already. I don't think a 20-point generic that can often die before it shoots even against 2-ship lists is going to do much better.

Sure, you go ahead and write them off.

That suits me just fine.

Yeah if you're looking for b-wing level filler than unfortunately scum doesn't have anything that is that curse and hits as hard.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong. I'm not writing them off as no threat at all. I'm saying all else being equal they're just a bad X wing for a point less with dial changes(mostly bad). I don't disagree that they might even be solid as a 5-ship list. But as filler they really are bad rookies.

You're kidding, right?

Gaining 1 hard turns and a second, 5 k-turn at the expense of the 1 forward and 3 turns is "mostly bad"? Having more green maneuvers than the more expensive, less maneuverable X-Wing as standard is "mostly bad"?

I only wish that X-Wings could move around the board like these things can. But either way, 100 points = 5 x Cartel Marauders or 4 x Rookies. I know which list I'd pick out of those two any day. Hell, upgrade the Rookies to Reds with R2's and I'd still take the Marauders. Until Integrated Astromech is released, anyway - then I'd take four Black Sun Aces with Crackshot and Inertial Dampeners.

Lol I love it when people bring scykz especially ones with cannons because it's free points and almost a guaranteed win. It sucks because I also like scyks and think they're one of the best looking ships out there.

I do think the best list with them right now might be 3 cartel marauders and 2 mangler scyks.

Well, that list is certainly working for me at the moment! The key is to not commit the Scyks early - either slow roll them behind a big, scary threat (like the three Cartel Marauders) or sneak them out along a flank. You want to keep them at range three as much as possible, and if you think the enemy is going to target them don't be afraid to pick the evade action.

Scyks have been and continue to be my "filler." They're too fun to leave behind. I still haven't decided if I like the Mangler Scyk better or the Kihraxz better. Both are better than I think people give them credit for.

I understand that the mathswing numbers show that the star viper and Scyk are overcosted, but I would expect the numbers on the Kihraxz to be better. The big difference between it and the xwing is that you can get 5 of them in a list. The only other way of getting 20 dice at range 1 is 4 phantoms. Having low PS is not a problem in itself, there are plenty of low PS lists that have been successful, even up to the wave 6 meta, and there's less in this wave to contradict this in this wave than previous ones. I've not flown 5 Kihraxz yet, but I have seen a similar list win an event, and I don't think it's a list you should dismiss so easily.