Great change is upon us. Change causes anxiety. That is not only understandable, it is alright. There are a lot of unknowns right now. I would not be surprised if all parties concerned, FFG and the community, were unsure what exactly is going to happen in the next 18 months.

However, do not let your valid, and perfectly reasonable, anxiety with all the uncertainty blind you to the opportunities that this change presents. That is to say: Don’t panic.

For example, I had meandered over to the AEG booth this past GenCon and watched some folks demo the L5R CCG. And what I saw was a lot of pairs of glazed-over eyes as they tried to cogitate all the different BASIC mechanics. Conversely, I saw all the folks over at the FFG tables learning the different LCG games, and appeared to me to be enjoying themselves far more. Later that night when I was in line to play in AEG’s big tabletop game event, I overheard some L5R CCG players talking about how their expensive decks were constantly being invalidated with each new release. I was struck with the idea that it would be great if AEG would adopt an LCG format for L5R.

So imagine my delighted surprise when I read the press release this morning that FFG had bought the L5R IP.

Because, in my mind, the CCG had become so convoluted that it was inaccessible to the casual player. Which is never good, from a community perspective or a business perspective. FFG makes some fantastic LCGs in my opinion, and they have learned what works and what does not e.g. Game of Thrones 2.0. And they are simple to learn, yet still offer many layers of depth to explore. Will all the mechanics from the CCG make it to the LCG? I think it is safe to say probably not. However, there are individual mechanics from each of their current games that I can automatically identify as perfect for representing different aspects of L5R. So I am willing to bet good money that FFG will create a game that captures the spirit of L5R, meaning I will be pre-ordering the game as soon as I can.

Will your favorite clan or faction not make it to the new game, at least the initial release? Maybe, maybe not. We do not know yet. It is totally valid to be disappointed if it does not though. However, I would humbly suggest that you temper your disappointment with the thought that it is not because your favorite clan or faction is not important. Rather, it could be that the mechanics to make the clan or faction shine are not ready. Maybe the faction simply no longer fits in story going forward, and would actually suffer if FFG tried to make it fit. And if the lack of your favorite faction prevents you from enjoying the game, then you are completely justified in not playing. However, I would suggest that the surest way to have your favorite faction not make it to the next game, and therefore truly die, is to quit. Because if no one is advocating for it, then there is no reason to ultimately release it. So perhaps you could consider not allowing the lack of one aspect of L5R to ruin the entire experience for yourself. You never know, you might fall in love with another clan, or maybe your clan gets released after all.

So, perhaps we can use this thread to comment on what we are looking forward to, rather than what we are worried is not going to make it. For myself, I am happy to know that L5R has at least a chance at a future, because to be honest I have not been very hopeful recently. I’m also looking forward to the chance to improve the card game experience to bring new players to the community. I look forward to the LCG format, where cards are not invalidated, there are smaller cash outlays over a period of time, and a slower pace of releases that allow for a more thoughtful approach to the storyline. I also look forward to having a company like FFG support a game I love, because the support they offer their games is impressive. Finally, I look forward to where the story might go. FFG has impressed me so far, I have nothing to prove to me that they will not continue to do the same.

That is why I am not panicking. I am hopeful.

We know so little about *what* to look forward to, I'm just looking forward!

i'm just happy it's becoming an LCG, which has long been one of my minimum bars for really picking the game up again (save for a slip during Emperor).

That it's in the hands of a company like FFG is a huge bonus, and definitely pushed me into excited territory. I think they can really do it justice.

More than that'll probably have to wait for some actual concrete info, at least for me.

I love the L5R background and have played many clans in the RPG. However I have always had trouble with the CCG.

Back when 1st ed RPG was out I played a Unicorn deck (my favorite clan), but the complexity of the game was such that if I want off for a month or so and did not play then I had to relearn the entire thing! In the end I gave up.

So bring it on. A simpler LCG with all the background of L5R is something I will immediately look at buying into. Even if my beloved Otako/Utaku are not in at the start.

On the other hand a new RPG mechanic does not excite me I play quite a few RPGS including FFG ones, and the L5R one has good mechanics already.

Back when 1st ed RPG was out I played a Unicorn deck (my favorite clan), but the complexity of the game was such that if I want off for a month or so and did not play then I had to relearn the entire thing! In the end I gave up.

The complexity of the CCG is also what makes it so appealing and so **** good, for a lot of L5R CGG players. It's not just another card game, it's THE card game.

FFG will simplify it a little bit, we know it, and it will not be a bad thing. But they should not make L5R as easy to play as AGOT. That would be a huge mistake.

I have to say I don't think L5R is that difficult. It is pretty standard fair for CCGs.

However I agree that it is overly complex and not in a good way. Many mechanics simply does not add anything to the game besides complexity. This is daunting, this has to go.

As for me I am celebrating and not panicking at all. I think the brand was mishandled over the last few years.

To see FFG which has a great track record in handling different IPs in charge of L5R is great news to me.

I was very surprised to see a very common view in this topic: https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/188115-core-mechanics-the-essence-of-the-game/

That shows me that many things only seem to be there, because they were always there.

The 2 years break and the relaunch as LCG has great opportunity to kill many sacred cows.

I want to encourage everybody to look into the design philosophy of FFG's special narrative dice, they really add a lot to the game. It boils down to have two kinds of positive outcomes ("success in achieving what you aimed for" being one and "happy coincidence, benefit by happenstance that you did not expect or aim for" being the other) - and the same for negative outcomes. What's special about them is that you have either positive outcome or negative outcome, but also either based on happenstance or skill - something that is hard to achieve with a roll that only adds up numbers.

Roll and keep with raises is extremely good at depicting skill-based outcomes. The sheer FUN i had narrating the "happenstance" outcomes with FFG's RPG is really something else though.

Roll and keep was extremely innovative back in the day, when did we turn so conservative that we can't accept new ideas?

I am really excited to see the mad mechanical geniuses at FFG come up with an ungodly amalgamation of the two systems, a terrible abomination unto sanity mwuhahaha

If they do an RPG, I'll just settle for something I can pick up, understand, and have fun with.

I was (substantially) less than thrilled with FFG's take on Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. But I'm prepared to wait and see- we have no assurances they'll even make an RPG, after all.

FFG also has been the only company I have seen outside thier own environments discuss or are interviewed about thier design approaches and how they work on a game.

I don't think the game itself is that complex. I have taught the game to so many people.

What I do think is complex is the board state because proper sequencing is so important in the game. You have to keep so many things in your head at once and figure out how best to use your actions. Using your actions is always so easy. Knowing which ones to use and when has always been the problem I have seen.

Now there are some really dumb mechanics in the game. I for one HATE rule book actions. They are unintuitive and new players never remember that they have them because they are not on a card that is infront of them. But in the end I do think rules are not that hard at all. The strategy is. That is why I have always liked the game.

I don't think the game itself is that complex.

It is complex. When you talk about how complex a game is, you don't just talk about how complex can be teaching the rules, but teaching the game to a newcomer.

Ever see a newcomer play and ask "hey... when and how exactly am I suppose to attack ?". It happens all the time, because even attacking in L5R is really really difficult. (sidenote : defending and gaining honor is way easier.)

So newcomers freezing in front of the opponent's grounds and not knowing what to do, shows the complexity of the game imo. I feel like you don't really have that in other games.

Please let me reiterate: I think the game was inaccessible to the casual player. That is a big segment of the gaming world. To not appeal to that segment limits the growth potential of a game.

I loved the CCG just like many people reading this. It's a fantastic game. Once upon a time it was my favorite card game for all the same reasons everyone else has. However, it was always played a smaller group of folks than the other card games out there because all the casual players kept to Magic or Pokemon. And there are many more card games out there than even 20 years ago. Something had to give for the game to continue in some way, and I think transitioning to an LCG format is perfect for that.

Furthermore, a game with streamlined rules can still be just as strategic as a game with complex rules. Take chess for example. Look at all the ink that has been bleed on paper over the centuries on the strategy of the chess.

So as I said, I'm looking forward to the opportunity to have a larger player base with a more accessible, streamlined LCG format.

I don't think the game itself is that complex.

It is complex. When you talk about how complex a game is, you don't just talk about how complex can be teaching the rules, but teaching the game to a newcomer.

Ever see a newcomer play and ask "hey... when and how exactly am I suppose to attack ?". It happens all the time, because even attacking in L5R is really really difficult. (sidenote : defending and gaining honor is way easier.)

So newcomers freezing in front of the opponent's grounds and not knowing what to do, shows the complexity of the game imo. I feel like you don't really have that in other games.

I disagree. But this is probably just how we teach differently.

Yes people have asked "When do I attack?"

After the Actions phase. And just like every single phase in the whole game, the game doesn't move forward until both players pass

How do I attack?

You assign attackers at a specific province and just like every other phase of the game, you play actions back and forth until you both pass. Then the fight is done and the side with more force wins.

L5R has incredibly complex choices, but the actual turn structure of the game is very simple. Analysis paralysis happens when new players feel like they SHOULD be playing an action, when the strategy dictates that they have more force a tth fight so why play something? I am not saying the lacks complexity, I am am saying the complexity that exists in the game is in player choices and actions. The board state can get very complex, and the board state is just the extensions of the choices made prior to the game when you made your deck. A loot of people don't realize that in a card game, the game starts at deck construction.

What I am saying is the complexity exists in WHAT actions and choices someone has. NOT that using the actions is especially difficult. I am of the belief that easy decisions do not necessarily lead to a better game. But I will admit that L5R can have so much text it is scary for a new player. But that is based on the complexity of the board state, not the complexity of the card.

Like, for real, Emperor Edition was so easy to use cards before they changed the template. Not to say that it got harder. IT was just so easy to say

To use a card, you do everything the card says in the order it says it. If you can't, it doesn't work.

Please let me reiterate: I think the game was inaccessible to the casual player. That is a big segment of the gaming world. To not appeal to that segment limits the growth potential of a game.

I loved the CCG just like many people reading this. It's a fantastic game. Once upon a time it was my favorite card game for all the same reasons everyone else has. However, it was always played a smaller group of folks than the other card games out there because all the casual players kept to Magic or Pokemon. And there are many more card games out there than even 20 years ago. Something had to give for the game to continue in some way, and I think transitioning to an LCG format is perfect for that.

Furthermore, a game with streamlined rules can still be just as strategic as a game with complex rules. Take chess for example. Look at all the ink that has been bleed on paper over the centuries on the strategy of the chess.

So as I said, I'm looking forward to the opportunity to have a larger player base with a more accessible, streamlined LCG format.

I agree. I managed to get into the game mostly by myself but it was hard and I am in the minority. It is very, very hard for new players to get into the game. A more accessible game can ONLY be a good thing.

I would say that the learning curve for the L5R CCG was just a little steep. I mean if I put a prebuild champion deck in most card games someone new to the game in the hands he or she will often do not bad, while in L5R even with having played for years I had often trouble to understand how the tournament winning decks were supposed to be played. This is not just a bad thing, for the high level player got some satisfaction of how to exploit the the intricacies of the game mechanics. But too often it required from new players also quite a high level of such understanding too to get playing. Only military was straight forward enough that people can pick that up, but then the first battle starts and you get cavalry and invatry and naval invasion, and tacitcans and all that crap at once thrown at you. Honour running is heavy decision based, since you always make the balancing act between how protected your provences are and how much honour you produce, and enlightenment well that is a whole can of worms itself.

I guess that is one of the reasons I think the "3 objective cards in the middle" approach quite a few of the FFG has could help L5R, since it becomes then more clear how to win the game or how to apply your deck towards those win conditions. But even if that approach is not taken, I hope the game will become more friendly to new players!

Like, for real, Emperor Edition was so easy to use cards before they changed the template. Not to say that it got harder. IT was just so easy to say

To use a card, you do everything the card says in the order it says it. If you can't, it doesn't work.

I only played emperor edition, and i didn't find it difficult once I started playing. But the rulebook does at times makes it looks more complicated than it should be. But playing cards in combat worked really well: defenders goes, attack goes, defender goes, etc untill both pass. No bloody timing rules! yes!

Still I've played MTG, WOW TCG and several LCGs for years, but if L5R is your first card game, daium , it sure would look intimidating. (and having two decks doesn't help the lessen the intimidation factor) Still i figure it's easier to teach than netrunner.

In other words, L5R CCG is not that difficult to be taught. It's the metagame that is so complex to a newcomer. There are many psychological aspects of the L5R (when to defend, accept challenge, sacrifice an army, seppuku a dishonored guy etc). These things are complex - I agree, but they also make the L5R CCG so rich. Right, it's not a perfect choice for casual players, but it's also not that hard for those experienced in other card games. My playgroup succesfully incorporated many former MtG players...

Now, I don't panic, really Why? Because I've already accepted the fact that the days of the "old" L5R are over. I don't expect FFG to continue a single mechanical aspect of the current game and I'm pretty sure the "new" L5R will be completely different. It may still be the same Rokugan setting of course, but served in a different way...

I will absolutely agree that the game was has an incredible learning curve. The thing about all the other mechanics though: cavalry, naval, tactician, etc. Is that they don't all show up in every game. That was always a point I made to new players. That all these mechanics exist but you WILL NOT see all of them in one game. They use the mechanics to help make the Clans distinct.

Though, that is not to say that the mechanics didn't exist and therefore don't add (needless) complexity. I would say that the existence of those mechanics were very much needed because of the design choices of how battles worked.

I am excited for game that is just as interesting that is not so exception heavy on rules.

Yeah and naval isn't that dificult: attacker gets to play the first card now. Cavalry is..ugh a pain to defend against, trying to second guess where your opponent is going to attack.

The biggest problem is that you don't know wich keywords are just "passive" keywords that don't have any special rules attached and are only used by other cards (like Tattooed and cards that attach only to target tattooed character) or are "active" keywords with their own set of rules. (Like Cavalry or Naval)

Like, for real, Emperor Edition was so easy to use cards before they changed the template. Not to say that it got harder. IT was just so easy to say

To use a card, you do everything the card says in the order it says it. If you can't, it doesn't work.

I only played emperor edition, and i didn't find it difficult once I started playing. But the rulebook does at times makes it looks more complicated than it should be. But playing cards in combat worked really well: defenders goes, attack goes, defender goes, etc untill both pass. No bloody timing rules! yes!

Still I've played MTG, WOW TCG and several LCGs for years, but if L5R is your first card game, daium , it sure would look intimidating. (and having two decks doesn't help the lessen the intimidation factor) Still i figure it's easier to teach than netrunner.

God, I want to love Netrunner and I hate teaching that game. I just want to like it so much. Intellectually, I love that game. But emotionally can't attach to it. I have tried to teach it, and I can, to some extent. But with how much hidden info there is, it is so hard to teach the game.

At the same time this is my belief on teaching games that I have developed over the years, especially since my girlfriend refuses to learn one of my favorite games and it quite easy: Euchre. Shout out to all my Michiganders and Notherly Midwesterners.

Here is the problem I have discovered people have when teaching games, that I think is especially prevalent in Netrunner: People don't teach the rules, they tend to teach strategy. What I mean by that the rules are WHAT a player CAN do. People tend to gloss over that and get to What a player SHOULD do. What a player SHOULD do is the very LAST thing they should learn. They need to learn the game before why.

I really encourage you to go out and teach someone any game you love, or watch others and be on the look out for it. Netrunner, I am convinced will benefit greatly from people teaching WHAT they can do. (not to say that you don't do that already)

In other words, L5R CCG is not that difficult to be taught. It's the metagame that is so complex to a newcomer. There are many psychological aspects of the L5R (when to defend, accept challenge, sacrifice an army, seppuku a dishonored guy etc). These things are complex - I agree, but they also make the L5R CCG so rich. Right, it's not a perfect choice for casual players, but it's also not that hard for those experienced in other card games. My playgroup succesfully incorporated many former MtG players...

Now, I don't panic, really Why? Because I've already accepted the fact that the days of the "old" L5R are over. I don't expect FFG to continue a single mechanical aspect of the current game and I'm pretty sure the "new" L5R will be completely different. It may still be the same Rokugan setting of course, but served in a different way...

I agree. On some level I want the game to stay similar, but mostly in setting. Mechanically I an so ready for all of it to go away and be a while new game. As long as the story is intact, we can play any type of game and be happy with that. People already agree with that sentiment. If we can enjoy the setting as a card game OR an RPG, then the rules of either don't matter. The setting does.

I am not excited for all the new players in 2 years who show up and go

"This is not how it used to be"

I encourage people to not even engage in that mentality at all.

Yeah and naval isn't that dificult: attacker gets to play the first card now. Cavalry is..ugh a pain to defend against, trying to second guess where your opponent is going to attack.

The biggest problem is that you don't know wich keywords are just "passive" keywords that don't have any special rules attached and are only used by other cards (like Tattooed and cards that attach only to target tattooed character) or are "active" keywords with their own set of rules. (Like Cavalry or Naval)

They kinda fixed that in the latter sets. Keywords with rules attached to them were bolded so you knew which ones to look out for.

Though they did make Shugenja a non-bold keyword because a card called Victory Through Deference could remove bolded keywords. It was intended to get rid of things like Cav and naval - but it ended up completely shutting of whole shugenja units. That card also gave you an additional action, could cycle a card, and removed cards from the discard pile, to fight against discipline, which is L5R's Flashback mechanic.

That card was dumb and completely changed the way they templated the game. AEG's L5R had some problems =P

The first hurdle with netrunner is the asymetrical style and the fact things are called different for each player, and you can't change the names to make things simpeler for new players! (Raaagh!)

I mean a deck is a deck, but for the corp it's called R&D and for the runner it's called the stack!

And god help the poor newb runner who made a run on HQ when he actually meant to run on R&D. It happens a few times when you are learning the game.

Atleast with l5r you can offer to go first and teach by example: now i attack this Provence, and you get to play a card then i play, and after combat i bow my farms to buy Dadoji Uji and now it's your turn. Can't really do that in netrunner...

Atleast with l5r you can offer to go first and teach by example: now i attack this Provence, and you get to play a card then i play, and after combat i bow my farms to buy Dadoji Uji and now it's your turn. Can't really do that in netrunner...

To attack la Provence with some rosé, olives and sausages is always a good idea !

Please let me reiterate: I think the game was inaccessible to the casual player. That is a big segment of the gaming world. To not appeal to that segment limits the growth potential of a game.

I loved the CCG just like many people reading this. It's a fantastic game. Once upon a time it was my favorite card game for all the same reasons everyone else has. However, it was always played a smaller group of folks than the other card games out there because all the casual players kept to Magic or Pokemon. And there are many more card games out there than even 20 years ago. Something had to give for the game to continue in some way, and I think transitioning to an LCG format is perfect for that.

Furthermore, a game with streamlined rules can still be just as strategic as a game with complex rules. Take chess for example. Look at all the ink that has been bleed on paper over the centuries on the strategy of the chess.

So as I said, I'm looking forward to the opportunity to have a larger player base with a more accessible, streamlined LCG format.

This is kind of what I am getting at. I have played a few C/LCGs in my gaming time and when I played regularly I really enjoyed L5R the same thing with the Vampire the Masquerade card game. However if I say take 3 years break from MTG because I got bored with it, I could just drop back in and remember most of the rules. This I cannot do with L5R or VtM, although I can with CoC.

Now this is not to say L5R is a bad game it not. But it is not intuitive enough for a casual player. Note I am basing this on playing before the card backs were changed due to the Olympic copywrite issue.

Now I have played both CoC and WH LCGs and enjoy them both. I am hoping for a streamlining that brings that intuitiveness while keeping the feel.

That will get me playing & paying.