I really doubt that L5R will start out or even rise to the heights of most of the other LCG's.

Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, these are international franchises with far reaching popularity and while card games are by comparison to the rest of the franchise a very tiny, insignificant chapter, they have name recognition. Legend of the Five Rings is a virtual no-body even in the gaming world, I'm 40 years old and have been gaming for 30 years, much of it at conventions, stores and events aside from my core group and I can count on one hand the amount of people I have ever met that have played or ever even heard of the card game. You can go to a gaming convention like Gencon and never run across a single L5R card the entire weekend.

None of the LCG are particularly big by any measure, in particular when you compare it to something like Magic The Gathering but L5R.. I mean there are people in this very post who discovered it through FFG's announcement.

Personally though I'm rooting for it. This is without question one of my favorite settings ever put to paper, I'm more excited for this then anything that has been announced and released in the last 10 years.

I really doubt that L5R will start out or even rise to the heights of most of the other LCG's.

Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, these are international franchises with far reaching popularity and while card games are by comparison to the rest of the franchise a very tiny, insignificant chapter, they have name recognition. Legend of the Five Rings is a virtual no-body even in the gaming world, I'm 40 years old and have been gaming for 30 years, much of it at conventions, stores and events aside from my core group and I can count on one hand the amount of people I have ever met that have played or ever even heard of the card game. You can go to a gaming convention like Gencon and never run across a single L5R card the entire weekend.

None of the LCG are particularly big by any measure, in particular when you compare it to something like Magic The Gathering but L5R.. I mean there are people in this very post who discovered it through FFG's announcement.

Personally though I'm rooting for it. This is without question one of my favorite settings ever put to paper, I'm more excited for this then anything that has been announced and released in the last 10 years.

If someone's fan of AGoT or Star Wars it doesn't mean he likes or even heard of card games, especially these in LCG or CCG formats! Card games players is a just subculture of gaming nerds and i'm pretty sure that knowledge about L5R amongst them is huge. I'm playing ccgs for years, met plenty of players and can't remember situation that someone's never heard about L5R. Probably same for RPG crowd. I don't want to say thar everyone played or gm'ed L5R, but many card/rpg people is familiar about setting. But, on other hand, i'm aware that for board games freaks it might be completely unknown, because AEG never produced hit with L5R world. It may change radically if FFG fe will release rebranded Forbidden Stars or Descent in Rokugani version.

Now this is getting interesting, because FFG buying L5R effectively means we'll see other games built on the license. I'm counting on a minis game, something like Descent or other boardgames.

Can't wait!

Now this is getting interesting, because FFG buying L5R effectively means we'll see other games built on the license. I'm counting on a minis game, something like Descent or other boardgames.

Can't wait!

Yeah, I can see four types of games being made from the license: the lcg, miniature game, rpg, and a board game or two. In fact, some of the existing samurai games they had could have an L5R bucket of paint thrown onto it with no real change.

Yeah, I can see four types of games being made from the license: the lcg, miniature game, rpg, and a board game or two. In fact, some of the existing samurai games they had could have an L5R bucket of paint thrown onto it with no real change.

I would also expect in-house novels at some point. And definitely more than two board games.

That is all, of course, assuming the brand is a success for FFG.

" really doubt that L5R will start out or even rise to the heights of most of the other LCG's."

LOL...FFG is already planning the opening ceremonies and Horvath has said multiple times this will be their biggest LCG release.

yes it doesn't have a built-in fanbase like GoT or SW but FFG is obviuosly trying to create it's own brands for when those licenses go away.

I expect great support and passion from FFG towards all things L5R

yes it doesn't have a built-in fanbase

Are you kidding us ?

yes it doesn't have a built-in fanbase [like GoT or SW]

Are you kidding us ?

If you think L5R's is as big a brand as Star Wars or Game of Thrones, you're kidding yourself.

yes it doesn't have a built-in fanbase [like GoT or SW]

Are you kidding us ?

If you think L5R's is as big a brand as Star Wars or Game of Thrones, you're kidding yourself.

There's a considerable difference between as big and any. If L5R didn't have a built-in fan base we likely wouldn't be here talking about it.

yes it doesn't have a built-in fanbase [like GoT or SW]

Are you kidding us ?

If you think L5R's is as big a brand as Star Wars or Game of Thrones, you're kidding yourself.

There's a considerable difference between as big and any. If L5R didn't have a built-in fan base we likely wouldn't be here talking about it.

There's a reason I restored (in brackets) the original context Katsutoshi snipped. Of course it has a fan base. But it's silly to argue it competes with SW or AGoT in that regard, or express disbelief when someone points out those are bigger than L5R.

How much of one a fan-base, and how much FFG is going to rely on it versus marketing to new players, remains to be seen.

There's also the question of awareness versus positive interest, and a lot of other things that might separate someone who has played or is aware of L5R from someone who'll consider picking it up. Same with bigger brands, of course. The percentage of SW fans who might pick up the SW card game is probably a smaller percentage of the SW fan-base, but it's a smaller percentage of a vastly larger number of fans.

More than 95% of the SW or AGoT fanbase don't care about cardgames (or don't even know cardgame exist), so why use this silly argument again ? You want to compare the fanbase, compare what is comparable : cardgame fanbase.

How many guys played Star Wars or AGoT 2nd ed as their first cardgame compared to those who were already in the cardgame community ? I guess not much. If you add an even more specific question like, how many guys played SW or AGoT 2 regularly, or keep playing after a few months, it drops even closer to the floor (5%, 10% of the total players ?). That's how you can mesure the brand effect.

Because let me remind you, that we all are huge SW fans. But the LCG doesn't have a huge community. Why ? Because a lot of (guys that were already) cardgame players didn't like its mechanisms. (Part of).

We have yet to see the gameplay of L5R, and it will play a great role in the difference between a huge success and a small success. But L5R has something only AGoT 2 had : an already existing cardgame fanbase. And I would add that L5R fans are fanatics about their franchise.

Let me draw a picture :

- Netrunner : existing hardcore fanbase YES, original and beloved gameplay YES. => success.

- AGOT 2 : existing hardcore fanbase YES, existing fanbase YES, beloved gameplay YES. => success.

- Star Wars : existing fanbase NOPE, beloved gameplay NOPE, original deckbuilding YES => so so.

- L5R : existing hardcore fanbase YES, existing fanbase YES, gameplay ??? => It has everything to be a success.

Now my bet : L5R will be even more successful than AGOT 2. And people will like to change a little bit from Netrunner. Ding ding ! The years to come will be L5R years !

More than 95% of the SW or AGoT fanbase don't care about cardgames (or don't even know cardgame exist), so why use this silly argument again ? You want to compare the fanbase, compare what is comparable : cardgame fanbase.

I would bet money that 5% of Star Wars fans is a significantly larger number than 100% of L5R fans, but it's really neither here nor there. Since neither of those numbers represent people who will actually buy the respective core boxes, necessarily. And core box buyers (as FFG has stated on several occasions, across their LCG lines) is a much bigger number than will continue with the line.

The point isn't being a card-game fan, it's seeing the logo on a box and that sparks your interest, or amazon knowing you buy a bunch of Star Wars stuff and saying, "hey, there's this new game you might like," or a hundred other ways companies capitalize on brands and transmedia marketing and what have you. Or even something as simple as a friend offering to teach you Star Wars, and you say, "Hey, I know what that is," versus, "L5what?"

Especially when you're launching your 5th or 6th lcg and want to bring in new customers rather than cannibalizing your user base.

But it's pointless to argue this. Proclaiming victory (or defeat) at this stage is ridiculous. Specific design and marketing choices will have all kinds of impacts we can only guess at, as we won't even see those choices for a while, much less their reception.

Especially when you're launching your 5th or 6th lcg and want to bring in new customers rather than cannibalizing your user base.

But FFG specialize in cannibalizing its user base, launching new LCG every year is just great example. You don't know how many AgoT and Netrunner players here are announcing they will drop their games immediately when L5R launch. They just play these games now because... there's no alternative for them in LCG market.

More than 95% of the SW or AGoT fanbase don't care about cardgames (or don't even know cardgame exist), so why use this silly argument again ? You want to compare the fanbase, compare what is comparable : cardgame fanbase.

I would bet money that 5% of Star Wars fans is a significantly larger number than 100% of L5R fans, but it's really neither here nor there.

Yes, I would agree the 5% of the worldwide SW Mega-fanbase would be a greater number than everyone who ever play some version of L5R.

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But honestly, considering all the crap the the SW fans get thrown at them in terms of marketing and merchandising, I would be really surprised if the cardgame fans even constituted a full percentage point. Hel, I'd be shocked if they even made up a tenth of a percentage point.

But it's pointless to argue this. Proclaiming victory (or defeat) at this stage is ridiculous.

The point of this thread isn't to declare victory.

It is to keep the candle burning during this very long Hour of the Wolf, while we wait to see what the dawn brings us.

More than 95% of the SW or AGoT fanbase don't care about cardgames (or don't even know cardgame exist), so why use this silly argument again ? You want to compare the fanbase, compare what is comparable : cardgame fanbase.

I would bet money that 5% of Star Wars fans is a significantly larger number than 100% of L5R fans, but it's really neither here nor there. Since neither of those numbers represent people who will actually buy the respective core boxes, necessarily. And core box buyers (as FFG has stated on several occasions, across their LCG lines) is a much bigger number than will continue with the line.

It's funny you didn't quote the right part, because I was adressing this question right after it :

How many guys played Star Wars or AGoT 2nd ed as their first cardgame compared to those who were already in the cardgame community ? I guess not much. If you add an even more specific question like, how many guys played SW or AGoT 2 regularly, or keep playing after a few months, it drops even closer to the floor (5%, 10% of the total players ?). That's how you can mesure the brand effect.

Edit: Never mind. This is silly. Star Wars and AGoT are bigger brands. Hell, I would hazard that every LCG they have is a bigger brand, even restricting the view specifically to the gaming community. Yes, even Cthulhu. Netrunner, too, but because FFG made it so.

That doesn't mean L5R will fail, or even be less successful than other LCGs, which is why I said neither of those things. There are many, many other factors that go into that.

But I sincerely hope that FFG isn't laboring under the delusion that L5R can lean on its brand in the way their other LCGS could, because if they are, it will fail. Thankfully, I doubt they are.

More than 95% of the SW or AGoT fanbase don't care about cardgames (or don't even know cardgame exist), so why use this silly argument again ? You want to compare the fanbase, compare what is comparable : cardgame fanbase.

I would bet money that 5% of Star Wars fans is a significantly larger number than 100% of L5R fans, but it's really neither here nor there.

Yes, I would agree the 5% of the worldwide SW Mega-fanbase would be a greater number than everyone who ever play some version of L5R.

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But honestly, considering all the crap the the SW fans get thrown at them in terms of marketing and merchandising, I would be really surprised if the cardgame fans even constituted a full percentage point. Hel, I'd be shocked if they even made up a tenth of a percentage point.

I would still say that's a larger total than L5R fans, but FFG didn't buy L5R because of that kind of brand awareness. (Which is an assumption based on the fact that they're not fools.)

I don't think it's good or bad, or is necessarily predictive of success or failure, as long as FFG bears in mind they need to take up the slack on marketing. Given Horvath's comment about the biggest launch ever, or whatever, it seems like they are.

It boggles me that, "Star Wars is a bigger brand than L5R," even adding, "in gaming," is in any way a controversial statement.

Edit: Never mind. This is silly. Star Wars and AGoT are bigger brands. Hell, I would hazard that every LCG they have is a bigger brand, even restricting the view specifically to the gaming community. Yes, even Cthulhu. Netrunner, too, but because FFG made it so.

That doesn't mean L5R will fail, or even be less successful than other LCGs, which is why I said neither of those things. There are many, many other factors that go into that.

But I sincerely hope that FFG isn't laboring under the delusion that L5R can lean on its brand in the way their other LCGS could, because if they are, it will fail. Thankfully, I doubt they are.

The idea that a bigger brand automatically means the X product based on it is as big seems problematic. Do we have sales figures that would state that Cthulhu and Netrunner, among others, have done as well as L5R throughout the years? I haven't really been able to see any real figure to point to how popular or how well many of these have actually sold.

Yes, you can see general enthusiasm and some good popularity with some games like X Wing and how it is doing compared to similar competitors. However, X Wing isn't an LCG and the LCGs are not miniature games.

I will point out that the vast majority of L5R players probably played and/or collected the card game, where as I cannot find really that many that have played a Cthulhu game (mainly the FFG board games) and the lcg.

The idea that a bigger brand automatically means the X product based on it is as big seems problematic. Do we have sales figures that would state that Cthulhu and Netrunner, among others, have done as well as L5R throughout the years? I haven't really been able to see any real figure to point to how popular or how well many of these have actually sold.

Yes, you can see general enthusiasm and some good popularity with some games like X Wing and how it is doing compared to similar competitors. However, X Wing isn't an LCG and the LCGs are not miniature games.

I will point out that the vast majority of L5R players probably played and/or collected the card game, where as I cannot find really that many that have played a Cthulhu game (mainly the FFG board games) and the lcg.

All of the current LCGs Fantasy Flight have are doing good, as best as we can tell from order displays from distributors (not counting Conquest, which is walking the Green Mile). Netrunner is the strongest by far, but Star Wars and Lord of the Rings are also doing great, and I'd presume Game of Thrones 2.0, FFG's grand old flagship of a cardgame, is doing quite well, but I haven't seen figures. Netrunner's sales made it the biggest money-maker FFG ever had until they got the Star Wars license; now X-Wing makes more money than the rest of FFG's game lines combined from what I've heard, and that's without cannibalizing sales in-house so far as they can tell. X-Wing doesn't just have "some good popularity", it's legitimately a runaway smash hit that is printing money for them.

In fact all of their Star Wars lines are doing great. Their Star Wars RPG is the best-selling RPG in the world that isn't D&D (or D&D in exile, if you're Pathfinder) by a decent margin. Their SW board games are selling well. X-Wing is, of course, crushing.

As far as their sales vs. old L5R numbers...well, the environment has changed a lot since the 90s. Big numbers back then aren't necessarily the same as what you see now. Netrunner easily sold (and sells) more than L5R did the final 5-10 years of L5R at AEG; it's the biggest collectable card game that's not Magic, Yu-Gi-Oh!, or Pokemon. Star Wars and LotR are constant hits, but I can't find numbers on them; my sense is they're ahead of late-period AEG L5R sales, but perhaps not up to the Imperial-Jade heyday. The old Cthulhu LCG sold enough that FFG kept it around for over a decade, and even brought it back from near-extinction once when the fans rallied behind it (Cthulhu 1.0 was the first card game line that tried the then-new LCG model, and it was a runaway success enough to bring the game back into full production for another near-decade). Once Cthulhu proved proof of concept for the LCG sales model, they changed their whole line over to the idea, including their old warhorse Game of Thrones (In this as in so many other things, FFG is like the mirror-universe version of Ryan Dancey, where their marketing ideas don't actually reduce their game lines to crap; I'm still surprised L5R survived Days of Thunder).

Basically all the LCGs have done quite well for themselves; a number of them have certainly equaled (or exceeded, in Netrunner's case) L5R's sales when they were competing.

As for this strange argument as to whether L5R will have the largest turnout ever in FFG's card game history, at this point, who knows and who cares? It will be what it will be. I really doubt it will break Netrunner's three+ hour lines to get into the prerelease (and the game was sold out within 15 minutes or so, and FFG actually diverted a shipment mid-flight to get more product to GenCon which then sold out just as fast; AEG never had a rush like that). As a fan of the game, I'm hoping for the best, and wish Rokugan a long life under their new minders. But this whole posturing as to whom will have the biggest crowd on prerelease day is pretty much useless; perhaps it will outperform Netrunner's attendance. Perhaps it won't. I don't care either way; I'm just hoping for a strong redesign, good play, and an active local playgroup, all of which are considerably more important than pondering sizes of fan bases.

As for this strange argument as to whether L5R will have the largest turnout ever in FFG's card game history, at this point, who knows and who cares? It will be what it will be. I really doubt it will break Netrunner's three+ hour lines to get into the prerelease (and the game was sold out within 15 minutes or so, and FFG actually diverted a shipment mid-flight to get more product to GenCon which then sold out just as fast; AEG never had a rush like that). As a fan of the game, I'm hoping for the best, and wish Rokugan a long life under their new minders. But this whole posturing as to whom will have the biggest crowd on prerelease day is pretty much useless; perhaps it will outperform Netrunner's attendance. Perhaps it won't. I don't care either way; I'm just hoping for a strong redesign, good play, and an active local playgroup, all of which are considerably more important than pondering sizes of fan bases.

Well first of all, it's the subject of the thread, so we do care here I guess. And second, I do think it will surpass Netrunner by far at launch !

The idea that a bigger brand automatically means the X product based on it is as big seems problematic.

Nowhere did I say that it would. Because that would be ridiculous.

All else being equal? Yes, bigger brand equals bigger success. All else is never, ever equal. So we'll just have to see.

L5R not being as powerful a brand as Star Wars just means that FFG will have to account for that in their plans. And by, "will have to," I mean, "probably already are," because you have to deal with the properties in different ways, is all.

Idly, I do wonder how much of Netrunner's runaway success at relaunch was fueled by its brief original life. I suspect it could be idealized in a way that a game like L5R, continuously in production with players churning in and out along the way, really couldn't.

Sort of like a great TV show that was canceled too soon versus a long-running show that's had ups and downs.

Gaffa, i'm curious how you compare numbers of CCG and LCG sales (1 small expansion = 4 boosters, 2 clan starters = 1 core set or something like that?). Also how you compare profitability of both formats. I'd also look at all these numbers you're talking about. Without them your post is just craptalk, just saying, Maybe you also just forgot about Europe/USA differences. FFG was always NA oriented company, when fe L5R sales in Europe were huge what i can't say fe about SW, AGoT 1.0 or CoC LCG that are/were nearly non existent here (at least as competetive scene which is a litmus paper of popularity).

And some hard facts from country where i live that makes me a bit sceptic. Our local FFG distributor back in 2014 decided to stop translating and selling both LotR and A:NR games. In interview he just put these numbers that caused this decision:

1) LoTR's Morgul Vale - 142 pcs sold

2) A:NR True Colors - 139 pcs sold

And with every expansion it was worse and worse (like in every LCG). And as cycles are ordered and printed in same time it was too risky to continue. They even stated that from true business perspective they should translate only Core Set and first cycle only.

Later they stoped localized SW LCG (after 3rd deluxe). Only translated LCG that survived to its end was Warhammer: Invasion and, sadly, Warhammer 40K: Conquest.

And we're talking about nearly 39 mln citizen country.

http://miroslawgucwa.znadplanszy.pl/2014/04/10/wywiad-z-wydawnictwem-galakta-koniec-polskiego-lcg/

I know locally that many lcgs and many ccgs are just not supported here either, but that alone might not tell the entire picture. Usually if I want to get a new fan base going, I typically have to buy extras of everything and give them away. In addition, X Wing is very popular in many different areas but my local shop has a good number of everything and has largely to do with the failure of one tournament that killed* off a lot of interest.

* - A store owner forgetting to actually get in tournament kits, offering no support, and deciding that they rather give tables to other games.

The idea that a bigger brand automatically means the X product based on it is as big seems problematic.

Nowhere did I say that it would. Because that would be ridiculous.

All else being equal? Yes, bigger brand equals bigger success. All else is never, ever equal. So we'll just have to see.

L5R not being as powerful a brand as Star Wars just means that FFG will have to account for that in their plans. And by, "will have to," I mean, "probably already are," because you have to deal with the properties in different ways, is all.

That's pretty much the entire reason I brought it up: it takes more than a brand alone to equal success. Other variables are going to matter too.

man this thread is FULL of miscommunication.
I wrote a positive, forward looking post about the launch...
and all someone gets out of it is that I said that L5R doesn't have a fanbase?

"yes it doesn't have a built-in fanbase like GoT or SW but FFG is obviously

trying to create it's own brands for when those licenses go away."

I stand by my statement that this will be the biggest (and most elaborate) Gencon Launch of a FFG LCG.