What's hard to understand is that you are equivocating your personal experience with the reality of the market and then say that ccg s are cheaper and that's a "fact".

If you are not going to include or compare the market as a whole, when talking about the market as a whole, then let the reader know you're ACTUALLY talking about your own experience, which is not the market as a whole.

You do see how those are 2 different things and that it is disingenuous to claim either as the other, right?

Uhhhh. Sure thing, man.

This argument is quite strange because you guys are indeed comparing things very hard to compare.

The first few years I played L5R, I only bought enough cards to play one or two decks of the same clan. And I only had most of the rares I needed / wanted for the decks I would play, but not all.

The last few years I played L5R, I had ten decks built at all times, from 6 or 7 different clans, all the rares and multiple playsets of the ones I needed for multiple decks.

Same game, same user, different experience and definitely different costs...

Once that is said, there are imho no sufficient datas to know what would be a 'typical' L5R player... Or if someone has enough datas, I'll be very happy he shows them to me.

In the end, my opinion is that you can manage to play a CCG like L5R for a moderate amount of money if you know from the start your limits and you set youself for a deck type. If you know you'll be playing Crane courtiers for the next few years, of course you can have a lot of fun playing this type a deck for a small amount of money. Then, playing a CCG is cheaper than playing a LCG.

But if you like to play a lot of different decks from a lot of different factions, you like to change, to experiment, etc. Then I definitely don't see how a CCG can be cheaper than a LCG. Hell, I would spend more money on each release that I've spent for all the LCG I've gotten into so far (ok, I came to LCG late, but still...) !

What is funny is that in marketing you learn that it's always a good idea to segment a market : that everyone finds a way to spend all the money they're willing to pay for the products. That's exactly how CCG works : you have 30$, you spend 30$, you have 200$, you spend 200$. LCG is the opposite, you buy for 20$ every month, period ! And yet, LCG seems to work better (be more profitable) than CCG (with some exceptions).

What is funny is that in marketing you learn that it's always a good idea to segment a market : that everyone finds a way to spend all the money they're willing to pay for the products. That's exactly how CCG works : you have 30$, you spend 30$, you have 200$, you spend 200$. LCG is the opposite, you buy for 20$ every month, period ! And yet, LCG seems to work better (be more profitable) than CCG (with some exceptions).

This is just my speculation, but could it have to do with player bases? Due to the random element of CCGs, you have to be rather dedicated to the game to invest your money. With LCGs being fixed, you're more likely to have casual players get involved and spend at least a little. You have less profit per player, but you have more players and thus a higher total profit.

You have less profit per player, but you have more players and thus a higher total profit.

Yeah, you get some hardcore CCG fans switching too, or just generally hardcore gamers who'll buy multiples of some sets. These harcore players will sometimes jump in with huge first-time purchases, because it's actually possible with the LCG model. Discovered the game a year late? No problem - just get the deluxes and corresponding cycles so far, as long as they're not temporarily out of stock. Often the duel-based ones are better at a later point too, as they've had time to reach balance between at least some factions (a deluxe for each of two or three).

Some maths with numbers rounded to make it easier to calculate. Typical L5R base set was 300-400 cards, but we will only count the rares, which were around 100 per set. Base set boosters displays come in 36 booster displays and a typical display cost around $140 MSRP (well just count MSRP for comparison purpuoses; of course we know you are too smart to pay MSRP but for the same token you won't pay MSRP for a LCG either). So given perfect luck you still have to open 3 displays worth of stuff to get one of each. That's $420 for one of each rare card in the base set, with a few remainders. But a playset is three of each. Let's take into account then, that are some unique cards of which you will need only one copy (and let's conveniently forget that unique cards are worth less when trading just because of that). So let's say you open 6 displays (again, with perfect distribution). After 6 displays you have 2 copies of each rare, and the unique/non-unique card proportion is such you are able to trade all your extras of uniques for the third copies of non-uniques that you were missing. So, given you had PERFECT luck (or alternatively, X-Ray vision), one core set that was made up of 50% uniques, and brain damaged trading partners, you can get a playset for around $840 and lots of trading. This, again, is like the best possible scenario.

For exaclty the same price in a typical FFG LCG, you can buy 3 copies of the LCG Core Set (3x$40), plus the next 6 complete card "cycles" (counting each cycle as 6 small monthy packs plus 1 deluxe expansion, adding up to another $120 per cycle). That's like the first 3 years of the game's life. And you don't have to chase. One. Bloody. Card. Ever.

Somebody tell me again how CCGs are cheaper than LCGs? But using numbers this time.

Some maths with numbers rounded to make it easier to calculate. Typical L5R base set was 300-400 cards, but we will only count the rares, which were around 100 per set. Base set boosters displays come in 36 booster displays and a typical display cost around $140 MSRP (well just count MSRP for comparison purpuoses; of course we know you are too smart to pay MSRP but for the same token you won't pay MSRP for a LCG either). So given perfect luck you still have to open 3 displays worth of stuff to get one of each. That's $420 for one of each rare card in the base set, with a few remainders. But a playset is three of each. Let's take into account, then that are some unique cards of which you need only one copy (and let's conveniently forget that unique cards are worth less when trading just because of that). So let's say you open 6 displays (again, with perfect distribution). After 6 displays you have 2 copies of each rare, and the unique/non-unique card proportion is such you are able to trade all your extras of uniques for the third copies of non-uniques that you were missing. So, given you had PERFECT luck (or alternatively, X-Ray vision), one core set that was made up of 50% uniques, and brain damaged trading partners, you can get a playset for around $840 and lots of trading. This, again, is like the best possible scenario.

For exaclty the same price in a typlical FFG LCG, you can buy 3 copies of the LCG Core Set (3x$40), plus the next 6 complete card "cycles" (counting each cycle as 6 small monthy packs plus 1 deluxe expansion, adding up to another $120 per cycle). That's like the first 3 years of the game's life. And you don't have to chase. One. Bloody. Card. Ever.

Somebody tell me again how CCGs are cheaper than LCGs? But using numbers this time.

Yup. Spend $25 on the starter deck and keep winning product at tourneys. Money spent = $25. How's those numbers?

Some maths with numbers rounded to make it easier to calculate. Typical L5R base set was 300-400 cards, but we will only count the rares, which were around 100 per set. Base set boosters displays come in 36 booster displays and a typical display cost around $140 MSRP (well just count MSRP for comparison purpuoses; of course we know you are too smart to pay MSRP but for the same token you won't pay MSRP for a LCG either). So given perfect luck you still have to open 3 displays worth of stuff to get one of each. That's $420 for one of each rare card in the base set, with a few remainders. But a playset is three of each. Let's take into account, then that are some unique cards of which you need only one copy (and let's conveniently forget that unique cards are worth less when trading just because of that). So let's say you open 6 displays (again, with perfect distribution). After 6 displays you have 2 copies of each rare, and the unique/non-unique card proportion is such you are able to trade all your extras of uniques for the third copies of non-uniques that you were missing. So, given you had PERFECT luck (or alternatively, X-Ray vision), one core set that was made up of 50% uniques, and brain damaged trading partners, you can get a playset for around $840 and lots of trading. This, again, is like the best possible scenario.

For exaclty the same price in a typlical FFG LCG, you can buy 3 copies of the LCG Core Set (3x$40), plus the next 6 complete card "cycles" (counting each cycle as 6 small monthy packs plus 1 deluxe expansion, adding up to another $120 per cycle). That's like the first 3 years of the game's life. And you don't have to chase. One. Bloody. Card. Ever.

Somebody tell me again how CCGs are cheaper than LCGs? But using numbers this time.

Yup. Spend $25 on the starter deck and keep winning product at tourneys. Money spent = $25. How's those numbers?

You're really good at not talking about the same thing.

Borrow a deck made out of cards your friend(s) have and aren't using because they have a playset of everything, unlike as a CCG where your friends only have the cards they have and not many others. Win tournaments and get promos.

How's that number? $0.

Personal I see both models having pros and cons, and, in the end, even I prefer the CCG model. But at least I'm not so diluted that I can give credit where credit is due.

Some maths with numbers rounded to make it easier to calculate. Typical L5R base set was 300-400 cards, but we will only count the rares, which were around 100 per set. Base set boosters displays come in 36 booster displays and a typical display cost around $140 MSRP (well just count MSRP for comparison purpuoses; of course we know you are too smart to pay MSRP but for the same token you won't pay MSRP for a LCG either). So given perfect luck you still have to open 3 displays worth of stuff to get one of each. That's $420 for one of each rare card in the base set, with a few remainders. But a playset is three of each. Let's take into account, then that are some unique cards of which you need only one copy (and let's conveniently forget that unique cards are worth less when trading just because of that). So let's say you open 6 displays (again, with perfect distribution). After 6 displays you have 2 copies of each rare, and the unique/non-unique card proportion is such you are able to trade all your extras of uniques for the third copies of non-uniques that you were missing. So, given you had PERFECT luck (or alternatively, X-Ray vision), one core set that was made up of 50% uniques, and brain damaged trading partners, you can get a playset for around $840 and lots of trading. This, again, is like the best possible scenario.

For exaclty the same price in a typlical FFG LCG, you can buy 3 copies of the LCG Core Set (3x$40), plus the next 6 complete card "cycles" (counting each cycle as 6 small monthy packs plus 1 deluxe expansion, adding up to another $120 per cycle). That's like the first 3 years of the game's life. And you don't have to chase. One. Bloody. Card. Ever.

Somebody tell me again how CCGs are cheaper than LCGs? But using numbers this time.

Yup. Spend $25 on the starter deck and keep winning product at tourneys. Money spent = $25. How's those numbers?

That's what all this talk of CCG vs LCG boils down, then? To bragging rights?

Some maths with numbers rounded to make it easier to calculate. Typical L5R base set was 300-400 cards, but we will only count the rares, which were around 100 per set. Base set boosters displays come in 36 booster displays and a typical display cost around $140 MSRP (well just count MSRP for comparison purpuoses; of course we know you are too smart to pay MSRP but for the same token you won't pay MSRP for a LCG either). So given perfect luck you still have to open 3 displays worth of stuff to get one of each. That's $420 for one of each rare card in the base set, with a few remainders. But a playset is three of each. Let's take into account, then that are some unique cards of which you need only one copy (and let's conveniently forget that unique cards are worth less when trading just because of that). So let's say you open 6 displays (again, with perfect distribution). After 6 displays you have 2 copies of each rare, and the unique/non-unique card proportion is such you are able to trade all your extras of uniques for the third copies of non-uniques that you were missing. So, given you had PERFECT luck (or alternatively, X-Ray vision), one core set that was made up of 50% uniques, and brain damaged trading partners, you can get a playset for around $840 and lots of trading. This, again, is like the best possible scenario.

For exaclty the same price in a typlical FFG LCG, you can buy 3 copies of the LCG Core Set (3x$40), plus the next 6 complete card "cycles" (counting each cycle as 6 small monthy packs plus 1 deluxe expansion, adding up to another $120 per cycle). That's like the first 3 years of the game's life. And you don't have to chase. One. Bloody. Card. Ever.

Somebody tell me again how CCGs are cheaper than LCGs? But using numbers this time.

Yup. Spend $25 on the starter deck and keep winning product at tourneys. Money spent = $25. How's those numbers?

You're really good at not talking about the same thing.

Borrow a deck made out of cards your friend(s) have and aren't using because they have a playset of everything. Win tournaments and get promos.

How's that number? $0.

Personal I see both models having pros and cons, but at least I'm not so diluted that I can't even conceive of other avenues.

Who said anything about borrowing a deck? Just use the starter deck. Add to it as you win product. Easy stuff!

Some maths with numbers rounded to make it easier to calculate. Typical L5R base set was 300-400 cards, but we will only count the rares, which were around 100 per set. Base set boosters displays come in 36 booster displays and a typical display cost around $140 MSRP (well just count MSRP for comparison purpuoses; of course we know you are too smart to pay MSRP but for the same token you won't pay MSRP for a LCG either). So given perfect luck you still have to open 3 displays worth of stuff to get one of each. That's $420 for one of each rare card in the base set, with a few remainders. But a playset is three of each. Let's take into account, then that are some unique cards of which you need only one copy (and let's conveniently forget that unique cards are worth less when trading just because of that). So let's say you open 6 displays (again, with perfect distribution). After 6 displays you have 2 copies of each rare, and the unique/non-unique card proportion is such you are able to trade all your extras of uniques for the third copies of non-uniques that you were missing. So, given you had PERFECT luck (or alternatively, X-Ray vision), one core set that was made up of 50% uniques, and brain damaged trading partners, you can get a playset for around $840 and lots of trading. This, again, is like the best possible scenario.

For exaclty the same price in a typlical FFG LCG, you can buy 3 copies of the LCG Core Set (3x$40), plus the next 6 complete card "cycles" (counting each cycle as 6 small monthy packs plus 1 deluxe expansion, adding up to another $120 per cycle). That's like the first 3 years of the game's life. And you don't have to chase. One. Bloody. Card. Ever.

Somebody tell me again how CCGs are cheaper than LCGs? But using numbers this time.

Yup. Spend $25 on the starter deck and keep winning product at tourneys. Money spent = $25. How's those numbers?

You're really good at not talking about the same thing.

Borrow a deck made out of cards your friend(s) have and aren't using because they have a playset of everything. Win tournaments and get promos.

How's that number? $0.

Personal I see both models having pros and cons, but at least I'm not so diluted that I can't even conceive of other avenues.

Who said anything about borrowing a deck? Just use the starter deck. Add to it as you win product. Easy stuff!

By that same logic, you only need to buy one core set, make a deck, win tournaments, get store credit. What's the difference?

Some maths with numbers rounded to make it easier to calculate. Typical L5R base set was 300-400 cards, but we will only count the rares, which were around 100 per set. Base set boosters displays come in 36 booster displays and a typical display cost around $140 MSRP (well just count MSRP for comparison purpuoses; of course we know you are too smart to pay MSRP but for the same token you won't pay MSRP for a LCG either). So given perfect luck you still have to open 3 displays worth of stuff to get one of each. That's $420 for one of each rare card in the base set, with a few remainders. But a playset is three of each. Let's take into account, then that are some unique cards of which you need only one copy (and let's conveniently forget that unique cards are worth less when trading just because of that). So let's say you open 6 displays (again, with perfect distribution). After 6 displays you have 2 copies of each rare, and the unique/non-unique card proportion is such you are able to trade all your extras of uniques for the third copies of non-uniques that you were missing. So, given you had PERFECT luck (or alternatively, X-Ray vision), one core set that was made up of 50% uniques, and brain damaged trading partners, you can get a playset for around $840 and lots of trading. This, again, is like the best possible scenario.

For exaclty the same price in a typlical FFG LCG, you can buy 3 copies of the LCG Core Set (3x$40), plus the next 6 complete card "cycles" (counting each cycle as 6 small monthy packs plus 1 deluxe expansion, adding up to another $120 per cycle). That's like the first 3 years of the game's life. And you don't have to chase. One. Bloody. Card. Ever.

Somebody tell me again how CCGs are cheaper than LCGs? But using numbers this time.

Yup. Spend $25 on the starter deck and keep winning product at tourneys. Money spent = $25. How's those numbers?

You're really good at not talking about the same thing.

Borrow a deck made out of cards your friend(s) have and aren't using because they have a playset of everything. Win tournaments and get promos.

How's that number? $0.

Personal I see both models having pros and cons, but at least I'm not so diluted that I can't even conceive of other avenues.

Who said anything about borrowing a deck? Just use the starter deck. Add to it as you win product. Easy stuff!

Because most LCGs don't have starter decks available either for purchase or constructed for that specific event.

The difference between you and I is that while you completely ignore real things and keep inserting your own experiences as fact, whereas I am at least trying to compare them in legitimately comparable ways to keep the comparison fair. You aren't and are being disingenuous to both.. You didn't learn the difference between a fact and an opinion in school did you? You can prefer the CCG model, there are reasons to do so. But claiming the reason why is because it is cheaper is only true under specific conditions. It is cheaper if AND ONLY IF you only get the cards you want to use that cycle and not complete things. If you want to have the whole game as a collection, then it simply isn't cheaper. Claiming it is is simply wrong.

Some maths with numbers rounded to make it easier to calculate. Typical L5R base set was 300-400 cards, but we will only count the rares, which were around 100 per set. Base set boosters displays come in 36 booster displays and a typical display cost around $140 MSRP (well just count MSRP for comparison purpuoses; of course we know you are too smart to pay MSRP but for the same token you won't pay MSRP for a LCG either). So given perfect luck you still have to open 3 displays worth of stuff to get one of each. That's $420 for one of each rare card in the base set, with a few remainders. But a playset is three of each. Let's take into account, then that are some unique cards of which you need only one copy (and let's conveniently forget that unique cards are worth less when trading just because of that). So let's say you open 6 displays (again, with perfect distribution). After 6 displays you have 2 copies of each rare, and the unique/non-unique card proportion is such you are able to trade all your extras of uniques for the third copies of non-uniques that you were missing. So, given you had PERFECT luck (or alternatively, X-Ray vision), one core set that was made up of 50% uniques, and brain damaged trading partners, you can get a playset for around $840 and lots of trading. This, again, is like the best possible scenario.

For exaclty the same price in a typlical FFG LCG, you can buy 3 copies of the LCG Core Set (3x$40), plus the next 6 complete card "cycles" (counting each cycle as 6 small monthy packs plus 1 deluxe expansion, adding up to another $120 per cycle). That's like the first 3 years of the game's life. And you don't have to chase. One. Bloody. Card. Ever.

Somebody tell me again how CCGs are cheaper than LCGs? But using numbers this time.

Yup. Spend $25 on the starter deck and keep winning product at tourneys. Money spent = $25. How's those numbers?

You're really good at not talking about the same thing.

Borrow a deck made out of cards your friend(s) have and aren't using because they have a playset of everything. Win tournaments and get promos.

How's that number? $0.

Personal I see both models having pros and cons, but at least I'm not so diluted that I can't even conceive of other avenues.

Who said anything about borrowing a deck? Just use the starter deck. Add to it as you win product. Easy stuff!

By that same logic, you only need to buy one core set, make a deck, win tournaments, get store credit. What's the difference?

I've never been to an LCG tournament where they offer store credit. The only prize support I've ever seen was alt art cards, playmats, and special tokens. I'm not saying they don't exist, but I have never seen any around here at least.

Some maths with numbers rounded to make it easier to calculate. Typical L5R base set was 300-400 cards, but we will only count the rares, which were around 100 per set. Base set boosters displays come in 36 booster displays and a typical display cost around $140 MSRP (well just count MSRP for comparison purpuoses; of course we know you are too smart to pay MSRP but for the same token you won't pay MSRP for a LCG either). So given perfect luck you still have to open 3 displays worth of stuff to get one of each. That's $420 for one of each rare card in the base set, with a few remainders. But a playset is three of each. Let's take into account, then that are some unique cards of which you need only one copy (and let's conveniently forget that unique cards are worth less when trading just because of that). So let's say you open 6 displays (again, with perfect distribution). After 6 displays you have 2 copies of each rare, and the unique/non-unique card proportion is such you are able to trade all your extras of uniques for the third copies of non-uniques that you were missing. So, given you had PERFECT luck (or alternatively, X-Ray vision), one core set that was made up of 50% uniques, and brain damaged trading partners, you can get a playset for around $840 and lots of trading. This, again, is like the best possible scenario.

For exaclty the same price in a typlical FFG LCG, you can buy 3 copies of the LCG Core Set (3x$40), plus the next 6 complete card "cycles" (counting each cycle as 6 small monthy packs plus 1 deluxe expansion, adding up to another $120 per cycle). That's like the first 3 years of the game's life. And you don't have to chase. One. Bloody. Card. Ever.

Somebody tell me again how CCGs are cheaper than LCGs? But using numbers this time.

Yup. Spend $25 on the starter deck and keep winning product at tourneys. Money spent = $25. How's those numbers?

You're really good at not talking about the same thing.

Borrow a deck made out of cards your friend(s) have and aren't using because they have a playset of everything. Win tournaments and get promos.

How's that number? $0.

Personal I see both models having pros and cons, but at least I'm not so diluted that I can't even conceive of other avenues.

Who said anything about borrowing a deck? Just use the starter deck. Add to it as you win product. Easy stuff!

Because most LCGs don't have starter decks available either for purchase or constructed for that specific event.

The difference between you and I is that while you completely ignore real things and keep inserting your own experiences as fact, whereas I am at least trying to compare them in legitimately comparable ways to keep the comparison fair. You aren't and are being disingenuous to both.. You didn't learn the difference between a fact and an opinion in school did you? You can prefer the CCG model, there are reasons to do so. But claiming the reason why is because it is cheaper is only true under specific conditions. It is cheaper if AND ONLY IF you only get the cards you want to use that cycle and not complete things. If you want to have the whole game as a collection, then it simply isn't cheaper. Claiming it is is simply wrong.

It is not wrong or an opinion when I say that it happens. It is a fact. How is it an opinion to say that I spend less on CCGs than LCGs? You, obviously need to learn the differences between fact and opinion, man. What is fact?? The fact is that I will spend more on L5R LCG than I did on L5R CCG. That's not an opinion. Whatever... I'm so done with you.

Hmm, maybe some day i tell you some stories about long pre-toruney forum threads where people get all cards they need to play. Or maybe funny stories when someone lost or forgot his deck and it was built from the scratch on friday pre-kotei night during another drunken-suicide tourney.

I don't how it was in your area, but you really didn't need to have your own playset of Tier1 cards here becasue there were always enough players to borrow them for you here.

And yes. The CCG model is also cheaper. That argument is not false. Sorry to bust your bubble. Pick any LCG and tell me what it costs you to get a full play set of the core set....

This is a claim. This claim is presented as fact.

Some maths with numbers rounded to make it easier to calculate. Typical L5R base set was 300-400 cards, but we will only count the rares, which were around 100 per set. Base set boosters displays come in 36 booster displays and a typical display cost around $140 MSRP (well just count MSRP for comparison purpuoses; of course we know you are too smart to pay MSRP but for the same token you won't pay MSRP for a LCG either). So given perfect luck you still have to open 3 displays worth of stuff to get one of each. That's $420 for one of each rare card in the base set, with a few remainders. But a playset is three of each. Let's take into account, then that are some unique cards of which you need only one copy (and let's conveniently forget that unique cards are worth less when trading just because of that). So let's say you open 6 displays (again, with perfect distribution). After 6 displays you have 2 copies of each rare, and the unique/non-unique card proportion is such you are able to trade all your extras of uniques for the third copies of non-uniques that you were missing. So, given you had PERFECT luck (or alternatively, X-Ray vision), one core set that was made up of 50% uniques, and brain damaged trading partners, you can get a playset for around $840 and lots of trading. This, again, is like the best possible scenario.

For exaclty the same price in a typlical FFG LCG, you can buy 3 copies of the LCG Core Set (3x$40), plus the next 6 complete card "cycles" (counting each cycle as 6 small monthy packs plus 1 deluxe expansion, adding up to another $120 per cycle). That's like the first 3 years of the game's life. And you don't have to chase. One. Bloody. Card. Ever.

Somebody tell me again how CCGs are cheaper than LCGs? But using numbers this time.

Yup. Spend $25 on the starter deck and keep winning product at tourneys. Money spent = $25. How's those numbers?

You're really good at not talking about the same thing.

Borrow a deck made out of cards your friend(s) have and aren't using because they have a playset of everything. Win tournaments and get promos.

How's that number? $0.

Personal I see both models having pros and cons, but at least I'm not so diluted that I can't even conceive of other avenues.

Who said anything about borrowing a deck? Just use the starter deck. Add to it as you win product. Easy stuff!

Because most LCGs don't have starter decks available either for purchase or constructed for that specific event.

The difference between you and I is that while you completely ignore real things and keep inserting your own experiences as fact, whereas I am at least trying to compare them in legitimately comparable ways to keep the comparison fair. You aren't and are being disingenuous to both.. You didn't learn the difference between a fact and an opinion in school did you? You can prefer the CCG model, there are reasons to do so. But claiming the reason why is because it is cheaper is only true under specific conditions. It is cheaper if AND ONLY IF you only get the cards you want to use that cycle and not complete things. If you want to have the whole game as a collection, then it simply isn't cheaper. Claiming it is is simply wrong.

It is not wrong or an opinion when I say that it happens. It is a fact. How is it an opinion to say that I spend less on CCGs than LCGs? You, obviously need to learn the differences between fact and opinion, man. What is fact?? The fact is that I will spend more on L5R LCG than I did on L5R CCG. That's not an opinion. Whatever... I'm so done with you.

This is Shifting the Goalpost where you start talking about something that you did not start with originally.

You claimed, more than a few times, that CCGs are "just cheaper" than LCG's. Mon no Oni has a good post refuting that.

You also claim, at one point, that CCGs are cheaper FOR YOU. And bring an emphasis to the "FOR ME" part of it. Seemingly you understand that they way you engage with CCG's is fundamentally different than the way you engage with LCG's.

Because, seemingly, you understand you have to engage with the models differently, it is difficult to compare them fairly and correctly. We can do our best and we do that by setting benchmarks. But you don't do that except when it benefits you. because you make the blanket statement:

"And yes. The CCG model is also cheaper. That argument is not false. Sorry to bust your bubble. Pick any LCG and tell me what it costs you to get a full play set of the core set...."

And we know, and can show, the fact, easily that there are cases when that is not true.

Why can't you admit that each model has its uses? You are so beholden to the CCG model that you will make generalized and false statements.

"And yes. The CCG model is also cheaper. That argument is not false. Sorry to bust your bubble. Pick any LCG and tell me what it costs you to get a full play set of the core set...."

Hmm, maybe some day i tell you some stories about long pre-toruney forum threads where people get all cards they need to play. Or maybe funny stories when someone lost or forgot his deck and it was built from the scratch on friday pre-kotei night during another drunken-suicide tourney.

I don't how it was in your area, but you really didn't need to have your own playset of Tier1 cards here becasue there were always enough players to borrow them for you here.

That happened here too, and it was fun and good. However, that is an effect of the comradery of the L5R IP. Not that it doesn't exist in other games, as it does but I see it more as small-man teams rather than the player base more or less as a whole. This also doesn't exist because of the model of distribution. How it changes will likely be affected by it, as in who has which cards and if people are using them all. That will probably be because of universally good cards in the core set that you don't have extras of. I will miss that about the CCG.

I brought up borrowing cards mostly to show if we just keep reducing the discussion to absurdity then meaningful thoughts and discussion won't happen. It is totally possible to show up to an event with none of your own cards and get everything you need. It is also possible to build your collection based on nothing but tournament winnings, which is basically entirely within the realm of CCGs as LCGs use promos and trinkets. But that is dependent on player skill and ability, which is entirely removed from distribution model and doesn't add to the conversation except to shame someone saying "win more"

I don't see why this discussion is hard. I really don't. We choose a benchmark and figure out how muich moeny it would take to reach it. Friends, teams, winnings, etc, are all dependent on things that are not involved with the game distribution itself.

Sparks, I salute you for winning all the time to get all the cards you need but your anecdote is just that: an anecdote.

Yup. Spend $25 on the starter deck and keep winning product at tourneys. Money spent = $25. How's those numbers?

Ah, so that's why CCGs were always vastly more expensive than LCGs for me: I don't go to tournaments!

Also, don't most tournaments have an entry fee? That probably bumps up the total to a little higher than $25...

Sparks, I salute you for winning all the time to get all the cards you need but your anecdote is just that: an anecdote.

It's cool. I can accept that. But it is what it is.

Yup. Spend $25 on the starter deck and keep winning product at tourneys. Money spent = $25. How's those numbers?

Ah, so that's why CCGs were always vastly more expensive than LCGs for me: I don't go to tournaments!

Also, don't most tournaments have an entry fee? That probably bumps up the total to a little higher than $25...

Yup, but unlike LCGs, you can sell off cards that you have enough of. Paying for travel expenses AND tournament fees.

Yup. Spend $25 on the starter deck and keep winning product at tourneys. Money spent = $25. How's those numbers?

Ah, so that's why CCGs were always vastly more expensive than LCGs for me: I don't go to tournaments!

Also, don't most tournaments have an entry fee? That probably bumps up the total to a little higher than $25...

Yup, but unlike LCGs, you can sell off cards that you have enough of. Paying for travel expenses AND tournament fees.

Gross oversimplification of formulas and overestimation of product worth aside, this still would only apply to those who go to tournaments. It is not and can not be a general rule applied across the board.

EDIT: There are also numerous fixed cards that one isn't going to find in packs, so you probably need more than one starter, unless you're just going to go strictly single-clan for your entire career. I'm sure such players exist, but I'm equally sure that the majority of players prefer to have at least 2-3 different decks for variety, at which point the LCG core set starts looking like a better and better bargain...

One of the major flaws with Sparks' CCGs are cheaper position is that CCG costs per players tend to be on a fairly wide bell curve and LCG costs tend to be on a much narrower bell curve which tends to push up the minimum entry cost but lowers the max cost.

Sure there are players who can buy a $25 starter and then win their way to a full 3 copy rare set at only the cost of tourney entrance fees, but those are on the extreme end of the bell curve similar to those who need to buy 10+ boosterpack boxes in order to have a full 3 copy rare set on the other end. Even if you are not paying very much to play a CCG someone else is covering the cost of your winnings with their losses.

One of the major flaws with Sparks' CCGs are cheaper position is that CCG costs per players tend to be on a fairly wide bell curve and LCG costs tend to be on a much narrower bell curve which tends to push up the minimum entry cost but lowers the max cost.

Sure there are players who can buy a $25 starter and then win their way to a full 3 copy rare set at only the cost of tourney entrance fees, but those are on the extreme end of the bell curve similar to those who need to buy 10+ boosterpack boxes in order to have a full 3 copy rare set on the other end. Even if you are not paying very much to play a CCG someone else is covering the cost of your winnings with their losses.

All I'm saying is that people keep arguing the costs of LCGs being cheaper and I'm trying to show people that it doesn't have to be. People just don't put in the effort. I've been playing the Star Wars: Destiny CCG since the beginning of December. I spent money on 2 sets of starters and 2 full booster boxes. I have a full playset of everything and I've made about $100 on the game, including tourney entry fees. I admit that if you don't care about anything but playing a game, then the LCG model may be cheaper for you. If you put in the work, the CCG is cheaper. If you don't care to do the work, keep paying that monthly membership with the LCG. It's all in what you want out of the game. I choose to spend less money with the CCG than to pay more for the LCG... and keep paying every month to keep playing competitively. Also, for what exactly am I playing competitively for in a LCG? Cards that I already own?? Playmats?? TOKENS??? Yeah right. None of that interests me one bit. If I'm paying to play in a competitive tournament, I want the chance to get that money back... even if I do poorly and don't win anything, I still had the chance to win back the money. And then I put in the work to get better so that I may win back that money at the next one. Something you can NEVER do in a LCG tournament. I get that most people who argue the LCG is better, cheaper, and whatnot are mostly people who don't care about competitive play. And that is totally fine for them. I'm just offering my experiences in saying that if you love playing competitively, the CCG can be cheaper if you do the work. If you don't wanna do the work, keep paying all that money on your LCGs.

You make a lot of valid points, but I think you could always find players willing to buy the tokens, playmats etc.on the secondary market.

It's all anecdotal so yes, it's possible to be cheaper for you but it doesn't make it cheaper in the abstract.