Maybe A:NR is still funny game to play nowadays (it has biggest tournament scene), but when i see something like that i can't just believe that FFG treat their competetive card games seriously.

275 players tournament on Worlds. Top 16 structure:

Runner: 14x Anarch, 2x Shaper

Corp: 16x NBN

And something like this happens after series of restrictions and erratas.

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WH:Conquest championships were won by Dark Eldar (Kith) swarmy choke deck, second time in row. Warlord (out of 30 other WLs) who has shown its pure power since it was released and scored most National wins during 2015 seasons, and was second is same cathegory during 2016. Only single new card that appeared in the decklist since last WC was some Mobile Deamon from Necrons deluxe.

If you look purely at faction, sure it looks horrible. While the NBN stuff was pretty much the same ID, there was some interesting diversity among the Anarch stuff. While Netrunner wasn't exactly great, looking purely at faction is a poor analysis. And Conquest was barely out of it's infant stage.

Also, top 16 out of 200+ players is really a poor sample size.

And LCG is going to need patience. Due to the nature of release and distribution, it takes a while for an LCG to mature.

Ok... But you have to realize that L5R had a faction loyal fan base. This is why people are saying these things. If you only have one or maybe two factions that are great, people will drop the game if they see no point in playing their favorite faction.

I don't think he was discussing the sample size, I think he was merely saying that one or two factions are overwhelmingly powerful. Why play anything different then?

The LCG release and distribution is the biggest drawback it has for the model. It's the reason I could only get in to Netrunner at the beginning and then quit it. I also tried Doomtown, but I couldn't get past the horrible distribution model of LCGs.

I am hoping that L5R will be great so that I can look past the LCG release and distribution model and play the hell out of the game! But FFG really needs to change up the faction balance issues and hopefully, change up the release schedule a little. I don't understand why they couldn't release bigger packs quarterly. Tiny packs every month is ****, imo. Not enough support for all the factions at once.

@Sparks Duh

What's so terrible about the LCG model?

For some reason, I have the feeling we're gonna disagree again...

@Sparks Duh

What's so terrible about the LCG model?

For some reason, I have the feeling we're gonna disagree again...

I don't mind that packs are released with every card. The meta shifts way too quickly with the frequency of a once-a-month release. It may not shift too much, but there is a shift. I could build a deck, test it, tweak it and play it once at a major tourney. Then the next month, I don't have a major tourney to play in so it seems like a waste to even build a deck with the new cards that come out. But the month after, I have another major tourney to play in. The meta has shifted twice since the last time I played in a major tourney. I only had one chance to play my first deck at a major tourney, didn't build any decks after the next release (because no major tourney) and then built a completely different deck for my next tourney. I prefer that the meta has a chance to settle a bit. Mature, if you will. I prefer to play one deck at a few tourneys (at least) before the meta shifts. It gives me a chance to see how much I need to tweak the deck in that kind of environment and maybe do better at the next tourney.

@Sparks Duh

What's so terrible about the LCG model?

For some reason, I have the feeling we're gonna disagree again...

I don't mind that packs are released with every card. The meta shifts way too quickly with the frequency of a once-a-month release. It may not shift too much, but there is a shift. I could build a deck, test it, tweak it and play it once at a major tourney. Then the next month, I don't have a major tourney to play in so it seems like a waste to even build a deck with the new cards that come out. But the month after, I have another major tourney to play in. The meta has shifted twice since the last time I played in a major tourney. I only had one chance to play my first deck at a major tourney, didn't build any decks after the next release (because no major tourney) and then built a completely different deck for my next tourney. I prefer that the meta has a chance to settle a bit. Mature, if you will. I prefer to play one deck at a few tourneys (at least) before the meta shifts. It gives me a chance to see how much I need to tweak the deck in that kind of environment and maybe do better at the next tourney.

Well, keeping track of the evolving meta-game is a player skill that people just need to develop.

The consolation is that for a 6 month period there are non-stop Store Championship and Regional Championship tournaments for AGoT (and likely L5R if it takes off like AGoT did).

Well, keeping track of the evolving meta-game is a player skill that people just need to develop.

The consolation is that for a 6 month period there are non-stop Store Championship and Regional Championship tournaments for AGoT (and likely L5R if it takes off like AGoT did).

Sure, I actually have that skill. Like I said... it's more about playing a particular deck more than one time at a major tourney. When a set gets released, it supports all factions at once every three months instead of only a couple every month. This makes things easier to balance the entire field instead of having AGoT or Netrunner syndrome (lopsided, only one faction wins everything all the time).

A lot of times it feels like small tweaks and adjustments to the meta. Yes, the occasionally a card will come out that will cause a big flux of the meta. A lot of times it still feels like the normal evolution of the meta.

Though I'm surprise more haven't latched onto the campaign expansion for Netrunner. That is something I think many here would be thrilled about.

Though I'm surprise more haven't latched onto the campaign expansion for Netrunner. That is something I think many here would be thrilled about.

That seems more like jumping on the Legacy bandwagon than anything L5R-related.

I just hate the sorting irritation of the monthly packs. I would definitely rather have a "big box" every 3-4 months, even with an equivalent # of cards to what the drip-feed would produce. Magic the Gathering's meta-game shifts a whole bunch over the course of the 3 months between sets, because people are adapting to what's getting played, and exploring the functionality of the more opaque card designs; and that model feels better to me than the "wait to see whether this month's LCG pack, which is probably 16-18 competitively unplayable cards, contains 1-2 cards that upend what is playable or not." And I say that as someone who has been playing LCGs since AGOT1. The LCG "monthly drip" model doesn't drive me away from the games, but I've definitely had enough time with it to find it more irritating than welcome. Especially when they decide to introduce a new "theme", drip by drip, such that you're staring at unplayably bad "synergy" cards, but need to test it every month anyway just to see if it's finally hit critical mass, until it either hits critical mass 6-9 months later, or peters out into nothing. The "big box" products they do are always the ones that feel the most mechanically and thematically tight, as well as containing a large % of solid competitive card designs compared to the monthly packs.

It also contributes to why LCGs can't be sold in big-box stores, and are often seen as more hassle than they're worth by lower-level stores. Piles of different SKUs to track, and shelf-space taken up by the displays holding 1-3 copies of each [insert name here] pack that don't sell out of the box because your order doesn't perfectly match the fixed-consumption rate of your locals (and god forbid another store in town decide they also want to run an LCG night; each player only needs to buy 1 copy of each pack, so only one store is even going to profit off each LCG player).

Also, the new Story-driven Netrunner Big Box product is 100% what I would LOVE to see as the way L5R expansions were distributed.

I just hate the sorting irritation of the monthly packs.

Says the guy who loves sorting cards!

Also, the new Story-driven Netrunner Big Box product is 100% what I would LOVE to see as the way L5R expansions were distributed.

Even if they doubled price of competetive cards? I mean this box cost 60$ and contains less legal cards than typical Deluxe that costs 30$. Half the price is now stickers, mat and scenario cards. Wtf?

You underestimate my love of stickers.

It comes with a full play set of all player cards. Can't be that much less than a normal Netrunner deluxe.

It comes with a full play set of all player cards. Can't be that much less than a normal Netrunner deluxe.

Ther're 163 cards inside. 86 corp and 77 runner.

Standard Deluxe got 165 cards.

Before you'll try to correct me that this 163 mean new cards only in playsets (i mean x3), just check how many sleeves FFG suggests for this product: 4 packs for 50pcs. Just like for every other Deluxe. Core Sets require 6 of them (252 cards) and standard Data Pack 2 (60 cards). Also notice that every Deluxe description use phrase "Its 165 new cards (three copies each of fifty-five individual cards)" and that kind of statement is missing here.

So, because product info is written in this unclear way, i think there's just 25 x 3 + 2 identities for runner, and 28 x 3 + 2 for corpo.

For competetive player it means that he have to pay 60$ instead 30$ for his cards.

It's very reasonable if you have ever played other competitive ccgs like MtG and have to get playsets of cards.

It's very reasonable if you have ever played other competitive ccgs like MtG and have to get playsets of cards.

Meh. Playing L5R CCG, I bought a starter deck and never bought anything else. I usually won all the cards and/or traded for the cards I needed.

L5R Starter ~ $25.00

So I will be paying a LOT more in the LCG model by far. But I'm not worried about that. I'd just like the release schedule to be different. And no tokens!

Also... The new Star Wars: Destiny CCG is gonna have (I think) quarterly expansions... Why can't L5R?

Why can't it? We don't really know what they're going to do with the game and deluxe expansions yet. Could be like Arkham Horror lcg and we suddenly get an early one.

It's very reasonable if you have ever played other competitive ccgs like MtG and have to get playsets of cards.

What's reasonable? Pumping tournament stuff twice?

I'm exemplary competetive player. For now i paid 30$ for 165 cards in any A:NR Deluxe Expansion. With latest box i had to pay 60$ for 163 cards because i really don't care about stickers and this campaign crap. Is it ok?

What's next? 90$ for 160 cards expansion with poster and pink XXXL t-shirt?

What's reasonable? Pumping tournament stuff twice?

I'm exemplary competetive player. For now i paid 30$ for 165 cards in any A:NR Deluxe Expansion. With latest box i had to pay 60$ for 163 cards because i really don't care about stickers and this campaign crap. Is it ok?

What's next? 90$ for 160 cards expansion with poster and pink XXXL t-shirt?

Once again, kempy is aghast that a company doesn't merchandise explicitly for kempy.

If you don't want the "campaign crap," don't buy the cards.

What's reasonable? Pumping tournament stuff twice?

I'm exemplary competetive player. For now i paid 30$ for 165 cards in any A:NR Deluxe Expansion. With latest box i had to pay 60$ for 163 cards because i really don't care about stickers and this campaign crap. Is it ok?

What's next? 90$ for 160 cards expansion with poster and pink XXXL t-shirt?

Once again, kempy is aghast that a company doesn't merchandise explicitly for kempy.

If you don't want the "campaign crap," don't buy the cards.

That doesn't work if he wants the cards but not the campaign accoutrements. I guess there's eBay, but you can't just skip it if the cards in the package are good/interesting.

What's reasonable? Pumping tournament stuff twice?

I'm exemplary competetive player. For now i paid 30$ for 165 cards in any A:NR Deluxe Expansion. With latest box i had to pay 60$ for 163 cards because i really don't care about stickers and this campaign crap. Is it ok?

What's next? 90$ for 160 cards expansion with poster and pink XXXL t-shirt?

Once again, kempy is aghast that a company doesn't merchandise explicitly for kempy.

If you don't want the "campaign crap," don't buy the cards.

Uhhhh... Seriously??? You are mad at Kempy for wanting to play a card game and having to buy things other than cards in order to play the card game? Not only that, but to buy things that are totally unrelated to playing the card game. That merchandising model is effin crappy for ANYONE who just wants to play the game! I would simply quit playing the game if I was forced to buy crap that didn't matter to me in order to play a game.

Me: Let's go to that hotdog stand and get a hotdog!!

Vendor: That will be $75 for the hotdog.

Me: WTF??

Vendor: Yeah, you have to buy this deluxe cd collection of classical music along with the hotdog.

Me: I think I'll just go to the hotdog vendor across the street...

You are presuming too much if you think I feel anything towards kempy, let alone being "mad".

kempy has persistently claimed, in this and other threads, that the LCG model is supposedly more expensive to keep up with for a tournament player as opposed to the CCG model of Magic (and that L5R used to follow), despite the fact that if we look at the costs of tournament winning decks from active large LCGs vs. CCGs that's really not supported by data.

Discounting the "Legacy" parts of the box, Terminal Directive will have what appears to be a playset of 53 cards (163 cards minus 4 identities, divided by the playset of 3), for $60. Netrunner datapacks are $15 for a playset of 20 cards, so it's $45 dollars for a playset of 60, which is 7 more than Terminal Directive gives you. So that's $20.25 more what you're paying if you only want the cards from Terminal Directive than if you got the same amount of cards from datapacks. For that you're getting a Legacy-style play experience which FFG is hoping will appeal to non-tournament players of Netrunner (the majority of their Netrunner buying population), as well as to any general gamer who hasn't played Netrunner yet but loves the Legacy-style games which are currently en vogue. Plus, y'know, you could actually play the Terminal Directive campaign itself and see if it is fun; heaven forbid you play Netrunner (or any LCG or CCG) in any form except hardcore tournament mode, eh? kempy's dismissive handwaving of the "campaign crap" without having seen it and tried it is a typical kempy emotional ploy, but it doesn't mean anything, as kempy's definition of "crap" is certainly not that of the majority of Netrunner players.

Meanwhile, if we look at L5R, a playset of 53 cards would cost a variable amount of money to get, but considering the cards you want from Terminal Directive would be equivalent to the rares or uncommons of L5R's old days (since you need them, don't have them, and they aren't in the pile of useless commons you have lying about the room), what's the average cost you had to pay to get the playsets of the Governor's Courts or Superior Tactics or whatever the non-aligned power cards of the old days were? Or we could compare Terminal Directive to the old AEG "direct from publisher" boxes which you had preset card sets, but cost, what, $100, I seem to recall? Maybe they were closer to $80. They did come with a simply awesome deck box and storage area, which certainly added to the price point, but technically those awesome deck boxes (and they were! I still value mine; possibly the best deck long boxes I've ever seen) were just as useless to the per-card value of the set as the Legacy mechanics are for kempy with Terminal Directive. Anyway, would you be paying $20.25 for the playset of rares and uncommons you need from the next box release of L5R under the CCG model, and be happy with it? If yes, then why the bitching? If no, then why the commentary?

Plus, kempy has always bragged that kempy had always been able to buy the L5R cards kempy needed from shrewd buying and trading, both online and face-to-face, which presents an apparent contradiction here. kempy could somehow make a competitive L5R deck in a CCG economy, but can't find a way to get the Terminal Directive cards they need from secondary sources for just as cheap? Step up the game, pal!

Luckily, FFG will not be marketing Netrunner (or L5R, or any of their games) with the primary goal of just making kempy happy (or any of us, for that matter). I guess insofar as I have any feelings on the matter, I look forward to seeing more impotent whining from kempy on such matters, with the only provision that such whining is just tiring and brings down the overall mood of the forum as a whole.

But by all means, keep on complaining about tokens in your game boxes! Nice to have a goal to focus on.

You are presuming too much if you think I feel anything towards kempy, let alone being "mad".

kempy has persistently claimed, in this and other threads, that the LCG model is supposedly more expensive to keep up with for a tournament player as opposed to the CCG model of Magic (and that L5R used to follow), despite the fact that if we look at the costs of tournament winning decks from active large LCGs vs. CCGs that's really not supported by data.

Discounting the "Legacy" parts of the box, Terminal Directive will have what appears to be a playset of 53 cards (163 cards minus 4 identities, divided by the playset of 3), for $60. Netrunner datapacks are $15 for a playset of 20 cards, so it's $45 dollars for a playset of 60, which is 7 more than Terminal Directive gives you. So that's $20.25 more what you're paying if you only want the cards from Terminal Directive than if you got the same amount of cards from datapacks. For that you're getting a Legacy-style play experience which FFG is hoping will appeal to non-tournament players of Netrunner (the majority of their Netrunner buying population), as well as to any general gamer who hasn't played Netrunner yet but loves the Legacy-style games which are currently en vogue. Plus, y'know, you could actually play the Terminal Directive campaign itself and see if it is fun; heaven forbid you play Netrunner (or any LCG or CCG) in any form except hardcore tournament mode, eh? kempy's dismissive handwaving of the "campaign crap" without having seen it and tried it is a typical kempy emotional ploy, but it doesn't mean anything, as kempy's definition of "crap" is certainly not that of the majority of Netrunner players.

Meanwhile, if we look at L5R, a playset of 53 cards would cost a variable amount of money to get, but considering the cards you want from Terminal Directive would be equivalent to the rares or uncommons of L5R's old days (since you need them, don't have them, and they aren't in the pile of useless commons you have lying about the room), what's the average cost you had to pay to get the playsets of the Governor's Courts or Superior Tactics or whatever the non-aligned power cards of the old days were? Or we could compare Terminal Directive to the old AEG "direct from publisher" boxes which you had preset card sets, but cost, what, $100, I seem to recall? Maybe they were closer to $80. They did come with a simply awesome deck box and storage area, which certainly added to the price point, but technically those awesome deck boxes (and they were! I still value mine; possibly the best deck long boxes I've ever seen) were just as useless to the per-card value of the set as the Legacy mechanics are for kempy with Terminal Directive. Anyway, would you be paying $20.25 for the playset of rares and uncommons you need from the next box release of L5R under the CCG model, and be happy with it? If yes, then why the bitching? If no, then why the commentary?

Plus, kempy has always bragged that kempy had always been able to buy the L5R cards kempy needed from shrewd buying and trading, both online and face-to-face, which presents an apparent contradiction here. kempy could somehow make a competitive L5R deck in a CCG economy, but can't find a way to get the Terminal Directive cards they need from secondary sources for just as cheap? Step up the game, pal!

Luckily, FFG will not be marketing Netrunner (or L5R, or any of their games) with the primary goal of just making kempy happy (or any of us, for that matter). I guess insofar as I have any feelings on the matter, I look forward to seeing more impotent whining from kempy on such matters, with the only provision that such whining is just tiring and brings down the overall mood of the forum as a whole.

But by all means, keep on complaining about tokens in your game boxes! Nice to have a goal to focus on.

What a load of absolute ****!

Look... If you want to play a card game, you should only have to worry about buying cards. If you want extra stuff, you should have the opportunity to buy the extra stuff. You shouldn't be forced in to buying extra stuff JUST to be able to play a card game... especially when that extra stuff has nothing to do with playing the game. period.

I like classical music. Hell maybe I might want to buy that deluxe set of CDs one day. But I sure as hell don't want to be forced in to buying that collection in order to eat a effin hotdog!

Nobody is saying tailor the game to meet Kempy's happiness. Make a card game so that people will buy cards for the game. Make other stuff for people who want to buy the other stuff. Why in hell does it have to be sold as a 'you can't have one without the other' type thing? It makes no sense.

I get you probably have a problem with Kempy... and with me for that matter, but I don't give a **** what you think about me in all honesty. But the bottom line is don't force people to buy stuff in order to get what you are wanting. Hey it's good business policy.

As far as the CCG vs LCG thing goes. I somewhat agree with Kempy's stance on the financial issues. I paid a lot more money in netrunner than I ever did playing L5R. In my 8 or so years, I probably spent less money on L5R cards than the 1 year I played netrunner. Why?? Because LCGs are for people who must have every card no matter what. L5R had faction loyalty... which means, you didn't need every card in order to enjoy the game. What else that means is if you get cards for other factions, you have trading power to get cards you need from people who don't play your faction. I won a LOT of product in major tournaments. I won so much product that I gave away a lot of it to people. You can't do that in LCGs. You must buy every card every month in order to play the game. So this is where your theory of LCGs are cheaper. Sure, they are most likely cheaper if you are the type to need every card, but for those of us who don't, it is WAY more expensive because with LCGs, you have to buy every card. But like I said, this particular problem isn't on my 'things I hate about LCGs' list. It's just something that I wanted to point out. I have other problems with LCGs that are more concerning... like faction balance. NOT TOKENS. Just because I hate tokens and started a thread about the reasons I hate them doesn't mean I hate the game that the tokens are made for.

I can understand the argument about using the secondary market to subsidize your purchases. Especially if you are a single faction kind of guy. I don't think it is a good argument, but then again, I like being a completionist.

But I think people are overblowing the "need" to buy every pack. Targeted buying is just as justifiable in an LCG as in a CCG. Except, you know, no randomness and no secondary market.

I can also kind of see how people would prefer how a CCG grows compared to an LCG.

But I think people are overblowing the "need" to buy every pack. Targeted buying is just as justifiable in an LCG as in a CCG. Except, you know, no randomness and no secondary market.

Yes, but urge is just great (and that's the main idea behind this sneaky distribution system). Many people treat LCG like micropayings kind of game. They're buying pack after pack sometimes even with knowledge there's none interesting cards inside but with belief something will be usable in future. Sometimes it is, sometimes is not. I followed some LCG games as completionist and at the end i finish asking myself - why? Ther're so many useless cards inside packs or cards i'l never use because they just announed something from far future expansion (3-4 months ahead) that makes my current idea less important.

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Back to LCG costs. Yesterday, just for personal curiosity, i checked how many i should invest as total new player to build AGOT World Championship winner's deck. Bandwagonning at it's best, but for someone starting from zero is probably best idea co copy and play "pro" decks becasue well built and tested deck should help to learn game mechanism more than first naive constructions. Let's say i just love Lannisters, want to play only this House and want to have something that achieved most important AGoT trophy this year.

https://thronesdb.com/decklist/view/6736/world-champion-1st-place-deck-1.0

3xCore Set, 7 packs and 1 Deluxe. Buyin package like this straight from local FLGS would cost me something about 220$. This is a price of stand alone T1 competetive deck. Yes, with this purchase i also received lot of other cards, but atm, right in this situation, they're just bunch of useless paper just like these mythical boxes of uncommons in CCG.