If the first level of skill is knowing how your own list should be trying to win, the second level of skill is attempting to see how your opponent will be trying to win. In Chess, for instance, the player who can see more moves ahead will tend to win. This is very much the case in X-Wing.

One of the ways ships can get a non-numerable advantage is by having a dial that is either extremely good (having all greens, or every maneuver, or having every maneuver be a green), or extremely funky (Tallon Roll! White K-turn!)

The problem has been that most players have eventually learned all the dials in the game. There are generally only a few places any given ship will want to end up, and the ship either can or cannot end up there, and the opponent usually knows the range of options available to a given ship.

To be honest, when I read about how a new maneuver will surprise my opponents, I tend to scoff. If I'm flying a Defender, my opponent is not going to be surprised by a K-turn! However. By the time Wave 8 drops, we will have 32 ships for Standard play, and another 4 for Epic play. That's a lot of dials.

I wonder if we're hitting the point where it will become difficult for even very competitive players to know the full dials on each ship. If that's true, then maybe we _will_ be surprised by the options that an asymmetric dial has on the battlefield. Maybe even in tournament play we will forget what range the K-turn on a B-Wing is. Or, like, everyone knows the dial on a shuttle is bad, but if you haven't played against one in a year, will you remember that it can do a full stop?

I actually rather like this. It means that weird, mathematically suboptimal builds can present options that your opponent will not expect- and thus become better than they would be if you flew against them every day.

Now... I forget. Which Squint pilot has the ability to pull a K-turn at weird speeds*? Can someone remind me?

*It's Tetran Cowall. But I had to look it up.

no need to remember everything if you bring along a reference sheet

plus, there's only so many maneuvers in the game

Much more than knowing the dial intuitively understanding the dial. Knowing the ramifications of each dial and ability well enough to incorporate it into your strategy is much tougher than just knowing the possible moves.

no need to remember everything if you bring along a reference sheet

plus, there's only so many maneuvers in the game

Yeah, I bring a sheet with me.

I haven't needed a sheet yet, but I think wave 8 is approaching my limit.

As a pretty novice player, I feel like I've had better results than I strictly deserve BECAUSE I make suboptimal choices (which I think actually serves to underscore many of the points made in the OP). In the final round of the final match in a Team Epic tournament I played recently, I made a terrible choice: I moved FOUR X-WINGS into range 1 of an enemy Raider hoping to cripple a section before points were tallied. I also put myself in perfect position for the Raider to squish all four of my ships. My opponents, however, "just knew there was no way (I'd) be that stupid!" so they turned away, leaving me with my ships intact and in perfect position to throw 16 red dice at the poor Raider. I'd like to say that I "next-leveled" the Raider driver but the truth is I was just very, very lucky because my opponent probably made what would've been the optimal move if I had also made the optimal move.

Much more than knowing the dial intuitively understanding the dial. Knowing the ramifications of each dial and ability well enough to incorporate it into your strategy is much tougher than just knowing the possible moves.

And knowing the dial intuitively enough to be able to predict the next TWO moves, especially after an initial pass leaves you both without many shots.

How will ship type Q, when stressed, be able to get me back in arc on the round after next? If it's a squint, simple: any way he wants. If it's a Y-wing, he probably won't.

Memorization of the dials isn't enough; one must comprehend the data or the data is useless.

I'm the guy who first pointed out that the B-Wing was both a long-range master and a knife-fighter, and invented the term "Hypermobile" to describe its use with Engine Upgrades and Advanced Sensors (and was the first on the forum to pair the two, back when Wave 3 was first spoiled. At the time, Hyper-mobile was hyphenated, because I over-hyphenate).

I'm the guy who named the Matador Turn, and started discussion on the marriage of Action and Dial for mobility (in the lead to Wave 3. Surely it had previously been mentioned...).

I'm the guy who points out that the Aggressor's greatest weakness is that it can only move swiftly.

I'm the guy who points out that, for all its flaws, the TIE Bomber's dial is incredibly unpredictable.

I'm the guy who points out that the maneuver mechanics of the game benefit the Firespray's Auxiliary Arc moreso than its primary.

I'm the guy who insists that Lord Vader is more mobile than Soontir Fel, and arguably so without the Engine Upgrade, due to being less blockable.

There are hidden thruths in the data. Master them, and you master the world.

But also learn how to fly a shuttle/hwk through a TIE Swarm. That helps too.

Even with the sheets, it's not enough. A lot of players are so used to "Red moves = bad" that even the option of them can catch people off guard. Everyone knows about the Defender's 4K, or the B-Wing's 2K. Setting up blocks for those moves are easy. But how many people remember remember that both of those ships are also capable of pulling a hard 1-turn, and take those maneuvers into account when planning their move?

I'll also agree that the TIE Bomber's dial is unpredictable, as it has a hidden edge: NOBODY FLIES THEM. When you don't have practice flying against a class of ship, it's really easy to forget what they're actually capable of.

I'm about to fiddle around with Juno+EU+AdvS+PTL.

Hypermobile?

I think ADDmobile.

I'm about to fiddle around with Juno+EU+AdvS+PTL.

Hypermobile?

I think ADDmobile.

ADD mobile is stay on target + b/e + intelligence agent + sensors Keyan

so many ways to change your mind

Best.

Response.

EVER

Memorization of the dials isn't enough; one must comprehend the data or the data is useless.

I'm the guy who first pointed out that the B-Wing was both a long-range master and a knife-fighter, and invented the term "Hypermobile" to describe its use with Engine Upgrades and Advanced Sensors (and was the first on the forum to pair the two, back when Wave 3 was first spoiled. At the time, Hyper-mobile was hyphenated, because I over-hyphenate).

I'm the guy who named the Matador Turn, and started discussion on the marriage of Action and Dial for mobility (in the lead to Wave 3. Surely it had previously been mentioned...).

I'm the guy who points out that the Aggressor's greatest weakness is that it can only move swiftly.

I'm the guy who points out that, for all its flaws, the TIE Bomber's dial is incredibly unpredictable.

I'm the guy who points out that the maneuver mechanics of the game benefit the Firespray's Auxiliary Arc moreso than its primary.

I'm the guy who insists that Lord Vader is more mobile than Soontir Fel, and arguably so without the Engine Upgrade, due to being less blockable.

There are hidden thruths in the data. Master them, and you master the world.

But also learn how to fly a shuttle/hwk through a TIE Swarm. That helps too.

I'm the guy that used to respect and appreciate your contributions.

Sorry, everyone deserves a "Kneel Before Zod" moment every now and then.
I guess that post was my after-work venting? I dunno. A bit out of character for me.

Still, I didn't exactly lie in my bragging; I just can't claim humility again for another few months.

A World Grand Master in chess spoke at my son's chess club a few years ago and said something that took me by surprise! The best grand masters have memorized as many as 55,000 boards! Yes, 55 THOUSAND! Hence, they pretty much know exactly what the opponent's intention is and can counter it quickly!

XWing maneuvers, different pilots and upgrades go well beyond that 55,000 quickly! So memorizing all the combinations is pretty much impossible!

Even if somebody has all the maneuvers memorized, all they need to do is run into somebody like me to get confused! I dont memorize dials and will often fly with unexpected moves which throws them for a loop! Just like a real dogfight, dont do what your opponent expects or you die!

If you're thinking too much about exactly what maneuvers your opponent has available: you're probably doing it wrong and inserting far too much brainpower.

I love seeing people with reference sheets on the other side of the table. If I'm stressed, they never expect me to do anything but a green maneuver.

Sorry, everyone deserves a "Kneel Before Zod" moment every now and then.

I guess that post was my after-work venting? I dunno. A bit out of character for me.

Still, I didn't exactly lie in my bragging; I just can't claim humility again for another few months.

Kal-El o l.

As a pretty novice player, I feel like I've had better results than I strictly deserve BECAUSE I make suboptimal choices (which I think actually serves to underscore many of the points made in the OP). In the final round of the final match in a Team Epic tournament I played recently, I made a terrible choice: I moved FOUR X-WINGS into range 1 of an enemy Raider hoping to cripple a section before points were tallied. I also put myself in perfect position for the Raider to squish all four of my ships. My opponents, however, "just knew there was no way (I'd) be that stupid!" so they turned away, leaving me with my ships intact and in perfect position to throw 16 red dice at the poor Raider. I'd like to say that I "next-leveled" the Raider driver but the truth is I was just very, very lucky because my opponent probably made what would've been the optimal move if I had also made the optimal move.

You know, I take moves like that with some frequency. The possibility of stopping a move does not equal stopping a move. I like to make them actually take the counter-move (or exploit it if they don't).

As a pretty novice player, I feel like I've had better results than I strictly deserve BECAUSE I make suboptimal choices (which I think actually serves to underscore many of the points made in the OP). In the final round of the final match in a Team Epic tournament I played recently, I made a terrible choice: I moved FOUR X-WINGS into range 1 of an enemy Raider hoping to cripple a section before points were tallied. I also put myself in perfect position for the Raider to squish all four of my ships. My opponents, however, "just knew there was no way (I'd) be that stupid!" so they turned away, leaving me with my ships intact and in perfect position to throw 16 red dice at the poor Raider. I'd like to say that I "next-leveled" the Raider driver but the truth is I was just very, very lucky because my opponent probably made what would've been the optimal move if I had also made the optimal move.

You know, I take moves like that with some frequency. The possibility of stopping a move does not equal stopping a move. I like to make them actually take the counter-move (or exploit it if they don't).

Reminds me of the old joke of how America won WW1 in Europe:

"How can they know what we're going to do if even WE don't know?"

As a pretty novice player, I feel like I've had better results than I strictly deserve BECAUSE I make suboptimal choices (which I think actually serves to underscore many of the points made in the OP). In the final round of the final match in a Team Epic tournament I played recently, I made a terrible choice: I moved FOUR X-WINGS into range 1 of an enemy Raider hoping to cripple a section before points were tallied. I also put myself in perfect position for the Raider to squish all four of my ships. My opponents, however, "just knew there was no way (I'd) be that stupid!" so they turned away, leaving me with my ships intact and in perfect position to throw 16 red dice at the poor Raider. I'd like to say that I "next-leveled" the Raider driver but the truth is I was just very, very lucky because my opponent probably made what would've been the optimal move if I had also made the optimal move.

You know, I take moves like that with some frequency. The possibility of stopping a move does not equal stopping a move. I like to make them actually take the counter-move (or exploit it if they don't).

Reminds me of the old joke of how America won WW1 in Europe:

"How can they know what we're going to do if even WE don't know?"

Wow you HAVE been around a while.

Kneel before Zod's great-grandfather maybe.

Reminds me of the old joke of how America won WW1 in Europe:

"How can they know what we're going to do if even WE don't know?"

Whenever I read the Thrawn books I think that the best way for the NR to counter Thrawn's ability to read and predict his opponents is for them to devise 3-4 viable plans for a situation, and then at the last minute randomly determine which to actually execute.

Memorization of the dial isn't so important. It's usually pretty easy to see where the best position for a ship will be.

What IS important is out-guessing your opponent. If he knows roughly where you want to go, then he can plan his maneuver to take advantage of that. But if you can guess where he is going to guess that you are going to guess, then you can plan for that and catch him with his pants down. This skill is what is truly important, regardless of dial. It's important to be aware of the funky stuff like Talon Rolls and the advanced sensors pre-movement movement abilities that are out there so you don't get caught by surprise, but memorising all the dials is less important than being able to predict where your opponent is going to go.

Reminds me of the old joke of how America won WW1 in Europe:

"How can they know what we're going to do if even WE don't know?"

Whenever I read the Thrawn books I think that the best way for the NR to counter Thrawn's ability to read and predict his opponents is for them to devise 3-4 viable plans for a situation, and then at the last minute randomly determine which to actually execute.

Which is why Thrawn's tactical superpower was kind of BS. First it treated art as some window into the mind of a species, putting everyember of that species into the same tiny box. Second, it made no allowance for being mistaken. What if the commander was laid low with really bad runs that day, and his or her second-in-command took over? Thrawn's hyper specific plan to defeat his enemy is suddenly sub-optimal.

One of the most common reasons I have been able to win games for is that I intentionally use tactics and plans that are not what people expect for my ships to do, because I have watched what other people in my area commonly do in many situations. So I am using the same dial still of course, but making use out of parts of it that people don't expect.

Just got a stress on Corran from PtL? I do a 4 straight or 3 bank and don't bother trying to clear it, and watch the enemy ships all move into position right where a green maneuver would have taken him, trying to block. I love Unhinged Astromech on my Y-Wings because lots of people I know are used to seeing them move slowly and do 2-speed turns, and making ships move in a way people don't expect is awesome. I also like to seemingly randomly stall ships with 1 forwards instead of trying to turn fight, and choose 4/5-speed straights when people expect me to turn fight instead ("boom and zoom" instead of "turn and burn").