TECHNICALLY the Nothing isn't defunct. its just locked in a closet, of sorts, out in a jungle.

And... well. Has a personality. I don't think being the Shadow Dragon has done the nothing any favours.

it made it snarkier... for whatever thats worth

Those reasons are why I said "mostly" defunct. Because whatever the Shadow Dragon really is, it certainly isn't the Lying Darkness, it has some of the same traits and abilities the Nothing had because it was tainted by the Nothing, but it is something new (cosmically) and different. And well if it was the Lying Darkness, we'd be calling it the Akodo Dragon

It sure has a lot of keywords: Dragon, ninja, cavalry Shugenja...

They turned the Shadowlands Taint from something terrifying into a source of superpowers. The pre-Spider lore on the nature of Jigoku and the by extension the Taint was way more interesting.

I think it is a matter of taste. In my opinion the change was great. I like the evil that comes with a choice, and not the mindless evil Jigoku has been. Now, you cannot be tainted just for having bad luck, but you only get tainted when you decide to give in to the dark side. I think both are equally good ways to tell horror stories, but I think the stories that are about the decisions we huamns make are a little more powerful then those that basically just are about senseless cruelty. And in a samurai game that delve so much into samurai drama and thus the situation of making decisions for the lesser of two evils all to often, the taint not as cosmic evil but as personal dilemma is much more fitting.

The idea of evil as a contagion instead of a choice was always an issue for me.

"How did you end up in hell? Did you slaughter the children of a rival clan? Murder your lord and take his wife as a concubine? Starve the peasants you were responsible for?"

"No."

"Then what did you do?"

"I stood on a wall for 20 years. I did my duty to my lord, my emperor, my clan, and my people. Sometime in those years, I missed a drop of demon blood when cleaning my armor, probably just once."

"I stood on a wall for 20 years. I did my duty to my lord, my emperor, my clan, and my people. Sometime in those years, I missed a drop of demon blood when cleaning my armor, probably just once."

Shadowlands taint.

Not even once.

They turned the Shadowlands Taint from something terrifying into a source of superpowers. The pre-Spider lore on the nature of Jigoku and the by extension the Taint was way more interesting.

I think it is a matter of taste. In my opinion the change was great. I like the evil that comes with a choice, and not the mindless evil Jigoku has been. Now, you cannot be tainted just for having bad luck, but you only get tainted when you decide to give in to the dark side. I think both are equally good ways to tell horror stories, but I think the stories that are about the decisions we huamns make are a little more powerful then those that basically just are about senseless cruelty. And in a samurai game that delve so much into samurai drama and thus the situation of making decisions for the lesser of two evils all to often, the taint not as cosmic evil but as personal dilemma is much more fitting.

The idea of evil as a contagion instead of a choice was always an issue for me.

"How did you end up in hell? Did you slaughter the children of a rival clan? Murder your lord and take his wife as a concubine? Starve the peasants you were responsible for?"

"No."

"Then what did you do?"

"I stood on a wall for 20 years. I did my duty to my lord, my emperor, my clan, and my people. Sometime in those years, I missed a drop of demon blood when cleaning my armor, probably just once."

He who fights monsters... needs to take care lest he himself become a monster.

Or accept it and join the Spider

They turned the Shadowlands Taint from something terrifying into a source of superpowers. The pre-Spider lore on the nature of Jigoku and the by extension the Taint was way more interesting.

I think it is a matter of taste. In my opinion the change was great. I like the evil that comes with a choice, and not the mindless evil Jigoku has been. Now, you cannot be tainted just for having bad luck, but you only get tainted when you decide to give in to the dark side. I think both are equally good ways to tell horror stories, but I think the stories that are about the decisions we huamns make are a little more powerful then those that basically just are about senseless cruelty. And in a samurai game that delve so much into samurai drama and thus the situation of making decisions for the lesser of two evils all to often, the taint not as cosmic evil but as personal dilemma is much more fitting.

The idea of evil as a contagion instead of a choice was always an issue for me.

"How did you end up in hell? Did you slaughter the children of a rival clan? Murder your lord and take his wife as a concubine? Starve the peasants you were responsible for?"

"No."

"Then what did you do?"

"I stood on a wall for 20 years. I did my duty to my lord, my emperor, my clan, and my people. Sometime in those years, I missed a drop of demon blood when cleaning my armor, probably just once."

That is because Jigoku is not Hell in the Judeo-Christian sense that it is a place of punishment, it is a source of wickedness and Evil. A person goes to Toshigoku (that was where Hantei XVI and Hida Tsuneo were before they came back through Oblivion's Gate) or Gaki-do (where Bayushi Shoju's soul ended up) if their actions in life merit punishment.

They turned the Shadowlands Taint from something terrifying into a source of superpowers. The pre-Spider lore on the nature of Jigoku and the by extension the Taint was way more interesting.

I think it is a matter of taste. In my opinion the change was great. I like the evil that comes with a choice, and not the mindless evil Jigoku has been. Now, you cannot be tainted just for having bad luck, but you only get tainted when you decide to give in to the dark side. I think both are equally good ways to tell horror stories, but I think the stories that are about the decisions we huamns make are a little more powerful then those that basically just are about senseless cruelty. And in a samurai game that delve so much into samurai drama and thus the situation of making decisions for the lesser of two evils all to often, the taint not as cosmic evil but as personal dilemma is much more fitting.

The idea of evil as a contagion instead of a choice was always an issue for me.

"How did you end up in hell? Did you slaughter the children of a rival clan? Murder your lord and take his wife as a concubine? Starve the peasants you were responsible for?"

"No."

"Then what did you do?"

"I stood on a wall for 20 years. I did my duty to my lord, my emperor, my clan, and my people. Sometime in those years, I missed a drop of demon blood when cleaning my armor, probably just once."

That is because Jigoku is not Hell in the Judeo-Christian sense that it is a place of punishment, it is a source of wickedness and Evil. A person goes to Toshigoku (that was where Hantei XVI and Hida Tsuneo were before they came back through Oblivion's Gate) or Gaki-do (where Bayushi Shoju's soul ended up) if their actions in life merit punishment.

It's still a place of immense and endless suffering for anyone who ends up there, and "contagion taint" ends up with people succumbing to it through no fault of their own actions.

As for the part about Abrahamic "hell", I'll largely avoid that in the spirit of avoiding contentious real-world religious discussion -- let's just say I've heard more than one person of various Abrahamic faiths speak of Hell as if it were the "source of wickedness and evil", but it varies A LOT.

Remember the "Old Taint" was Jigoku trying to expand itself by turning Ningen-do into more Jigoku, catching the Taint has less to do with the virtue or vice of the person catching it and everything to do with exposure to Jigoku. That is why using maho is pretty much guaranteed taint, you are exposing your soul directly to the forces of Jigoku. Getting Oni guts all over you has less chance as it is just the body that is getting exposed. Once you have the taint being a virtuous person can slow its spread because you are acting in a way that is antithetical to the realm.

And you are correct I should not have made that comparison, that is a slippery slope I jumped on. But like I said Jigoku is not a realm of punishment for your crimes in life, it is "just" the source of evil. The fact that mortal souls get tormented there is more a function of the fact that most mortal souls are the small fish in the big ocean of evil that is Jigoku, though there are exceptions really powerful evil mortals souls have made a place for themselves there like Yogo Junzo.

The introduction of the Spider at least brought about a solid face of the way of man, the Shouridouristic values. (or however it should be spelled)

Bushido and Shourido were suddenly now 2 major sets of ideals of which they can either go in tandem with each other or oppose each other.

To be honest I loved the writeup of Shawn and his team of Shourido. It is a good read.

Can't seem to find that one, quite don't remember where I read it. I remember reading a post with clearly defined distinctions of each quality and their contrasts against Bushido

But here is one from another author at least.

Its one of the interesting aspects of L5R

http://l5rrpg.blogspot.com/2011/06/philosophies-of-bushido-and-shourido.html

The introduction of the Spider at least brought about a solid face of the way of man, the Shouridouristic values. (or however it should be spelled)

Bushido and Shourido were suddenly now 2 major sets of ideals of which they can either go in tandem with each other or oppose each other.

To be honest I loved the writeup of Shawn and his team of Shourido. It is a good read.

Can't seem to find that one, quite don't remember where I read it. I remember reading a post with clearly defined distinctions of each quality and their contrasts against Bushido

But here is one from another author at least.

Its one of the interesting aspects of L5R

http://l5rrpg.blogspot.com/2011/06/philosophies-of-bushido-and-shourido.html

I like Shourido.

And I love that has found a home with more than just the Spider. Several Dragons are using it alongside bushido, and the Mantis seemed to be happy to take it in.

I'm not surprised. In a way Shourido is about being the best possible version of yourself that you can be.

The reason People didn't like the Old Taint was because it was fundamentally unfair. We have a desire for fairness in our metaphysical affairs, that's why we have the concept of judgment. Fairness is important to us.

It seems like a wholly alien concept that you can end up royally screwed for eternity through no fault of our own. And it's a terrifying thought.

It is also a very ancient thought that is part of our own (by which I mean abrahamitic) spiritual tradition (which is why it's such a radical departure that a certain rabbi associated with whores and other sinners, the prevalent idea was that sin was unclean and its effects contagious) - and it has cropped up in Puritan thought in the concept of predestination (with the distinction that you only REVEALED yourself to be royally screwed and indeed had been royally screwed from the get go.)

However: Even if you don't like that thought, it is a very interesting and unique part of the setting. And I liked the fact that this setting had something that takes me away so far from my comfort zone. Isn't that what Horror should do? In fact, WotC appropriated that concept for their Book of Vile Darkness (or was it Unearthed Arcana?) because it was so good. But hey, somebody at AEG knew better. That is why I have always argued that tampering with the way the Shadowlands Taint works is a bad idea. There is enough varieties of the Faustian pact around; pick a setting - any setting - with demons and devils in it. Don't abolish what makes your IP special.

They turned the Shadowlands Taint from something terrifying into a source of superpowers. The pre-Spider lore on the nature of Jigoku and the by extension the Taint was way more interesting.

I think it is a matter of taste. In my opinion the change was great. I like the evil that comes with a choice, and not the mindless evil Jigoku has been. Now, you cannot be tainted just for having bad luck, but you only get tainted when you decide to give in to the dark side. I think both are equally good ways to tell horror stories, but I think the stories that are about the decisions we huamns make are a little more powerful then those that basically just are about senseless cruelty. And in a samurai game that delve so much into samurai drama and thus the situation of making decisions for the lesser of two evils all to often, the taint not as cosmic evil but as personal dilemma is much more fitting.

But the will of Jigoku wasn't mindless, it always gave you enough rope to hang yourself. Also it the "old" Taint meant the Crab took a real spiritual risk every time they fulfilled their duty. That made their sacrifices all the more important. It made things like retaking the Kuni and Hiruma lands poignant as they had to literally destroy the spirit of the land to save it from Jigoku. I liked the fact that those that fought the monsters risked becoming monsters themselves.

The same applies to the now mostly defunct Nothing. Merely knowing the threat made you more vulnerable to that threat. When you thought about it that stuff was scary as hell.

I guess we have to agree to disagree on the matter of Jigoku. While I agree, with you on how important the sacrifice is the crab bring for Rokugan, it is basically the same decision as going into a radioactive location to prevent the radiation from conterminating more (thanks Sashmiel for bringing up radiation). That can be a powerful (and frightening) story, but it doesn't work well when you plan to do a game at the imperial winter court. So, I see Jigoku and the shadowlands as two different things, one is the realm of mindless evil and the other is a setting for survival horror. If you read some japanese fairy tales, you would see that oni are rarely about combat, but often about decide and temptation, they offer you things for a price, and that is the whole point that makes maho interesting in L5R, you gain some powerful spells, but risk your own sanity or are risking to become a monster yourself.

The thing about the Taint, however, is that it didn't become "different" so much as it lost 50% of it's potential.

The way the Taint works(ed) now was always possible, even with the "old taint." It was still a tool that could be used to bribe and it was still a temptation of power (or you'd never see maho-tsukai pop up, ever).

Unfortunately, when they stripped it of it's "radioactive" aspects, they didn't gain any new story-telling potential, they only lost that.

The other thing to remember is thatvtaint was two things: the physical and the mental/spiritual variety.

If you were physically tainted, it was your job as a samurai to end it before your soul became tainted and you were a danger to yourself and others. That is where seppeku and The Damned came into play.

If you were spiritually/mentally tainted, that was more your fault as you started to succumb to the whispers of madness. In that case, was more Lovecraftian. Again, your job was to end it before you got out of hand.

And then Dorito came up and said "nah, man super powers" and it was ok to be a little rotten.

The other thing to remember is thatvtaint was two things: the physical and the mental/spiritual variety.

If you were physically tainted, it was your job as a samurai to end it before your soul became tainted and you were a danger to yourself and others. That is where seppeku and The Damned came into play.

If you were spiritually/mentally tainted, that was more your fault as you started to succumb to the whispers of madness. In that case, was more Lovecraftian. Again, your job was to end it before you got out of hand.

And then Dorito came up and said "nah, man super powers" and it was ok to be a little rotten.

I guess I'm failing to see how "the Taint is no longer contagious to the unwilling" is the same as "it's OK to be Tainted, enjoy your freaky powers".

Look at it this way- the Faustian Pact taint has to be net beneficial. Why enter it willingly if it doesn't give you Superpowers?

Free will + taint superpowers > free will

Old taint was pretty much negative. The greedy realm only took from you, and any perceived superpowers were just Jigoku using a victim's body to spread. Like the Thing.

,..the Faustian Pact taint has to be net beneficial...

Ummm?

People enter Faustian bargains because they value what they gain more than what they're losing, to their later regret. It's not a "net benefit." It's almost always a net loss, and arguably the most famous version of the story only avoids that via a near-literal Deus ex Machina. Marlowe's earlier version results in damnation for Faust.

So no, there really should be extreme consequences to a Faustian bargain.

Honestly, the taint should be horrific, and pretty much entirely negative. You might *believe* you're getting superpowers, and that you can control it, but it consumes you in the end.

I'm largely agnostic on the contagious or not question. I see benefits to both, and it's far too late to ask for consistency from AEG's version. I think there are ways to have the best of both worlds by arguing that it's only a contagion where the land itself is so tainted that it thrives. Elsewhere, it's personal taint. Best of both worlds, I think. It allows for both the existential horror of service on the wall, and the personal corruption that can lurk under the surface closer to the heart of the empire.