Let's be clear, since it seems to be lost on some of the mechanics-first crowd:

The mechanics were not what made people stick with L5R over the span of two decades. The mechanics were often awful, arbitrary, unbalanced, and absurd.

The value of the intellectual property, therefore, is not in the gameplay in and of itself, but in the deep investment in the setting.

FFG will almost certainly do a better job on the mechanical end. That's not something I've seriously seen questioned.

But if they neglect the immersive end, then why buy the IP in the firstplace, since that's literally the most valuable part of it?

This is exactly my stance. It seems to so obvious to me that I am not worried. I LOVE sacrificing sacred cows and would happily give up things like a dishonor victory to make the game smoother. and I am a Scorpion!

I have zero doubt that the game will be better mechanically. And the only reason to buy this game was for the setting.

The only thing people have to do now is stay hype, stay active, and see if the game is something they want to play when it is re-released.

Another thing I would like is for less massive realm shaking conflicts. It makes the setting seem smaller than it is.

Yes, I have to say that every conflict has to be a world war like event is quite dump, but on the other hand you want to get all Clans involved.

If you look at the time line of the Toturi Dynasty, you really get under the impression that the most incompetent people of Rokugan climbed on the throne.

I have to say the only arc which solved that problem in any way or form was Emperor Edition, which gave Rokugan a common goal.

Not that I think that the storytelling was stellar during this time, far from it I mean the story team was basically gone during that era... Hmmm...

While writing this down I just wondered why is the only arc where I did not think the overarching narrative was not stupid was the arc were the story team was disbanded.

I hear stories about this crazy old dude who writes stories and designs games down in southern Arizona somewhere ... ;-)

Admit it, people. John Wick's Rokugan made this brand. It'd give 20 goblin skulls to get him to write another arc of L5R.

Marty Lund

Monkey Clan

Ew, no. The success of L5R is despite John Wick, not because of it -- I hope that if they do re-tool the setting, they take out some of the absurdities John Wick baked into it as unquestionable dogma (like "everything about social caste" and "everything about how honor works"). A lot of the problems with L5R as a coherent setting trace back to things that John Wick just did not understand and did not want to put in the effort to think about. This is why every argument about the setting involves someone rapidly hopping back and forth from "You can't judge this by your Western standard! It's an East Asian fantasy setting!" to "You can't judge this by the standards of East Asian fantasy! It's always been heavily Western game!".

And I hope there isn't direct continuity of story because, at the very least, everything I heard about Onyx Edition sounded like a terrible, terrible idea. And it would be even worse if Onyx was the state of the game when it relaunched as a new product -- "Here is our rich, storied setting, which we introduce to you by having a bad guy ruin it!"

I'm excited for FFG taking control of L5R because my relationship to L5R was like my relationship with the series Inuyasha: that of yelling at the canon "You have so much potential, why are you screwing up everything about it?"

Another thing I would like is for less massive realm shaking conflicts. It makes the setting seem smaller than it is.

The perfect example of what good stories are, are the one between Kakita Noritoshi and Shosuro Jimen. That's what I want to see ! Not big demon gods coming to destroy the empire (again, for the what ? 5th ? 6th ? 10th ? 20th time ?), clans being wiped out just to be reinstated 2 years after, just to see another clan wiped out again to be reinstated again 2 years later etc.

Stop this bullsh**, we want samurai family stories, we want shadows of grey everywhere, we want an intense look at samurai's dilemnas and histories.

Yes.... and no.

I agree 100% that the "Monster of the Year" paradigm is terribly annoying, doubly so when said Monster is the same from the last expansion/arc and the arc before that (I'm looking at you, Daigotsu!! ). However, at its core, L5R is a game with an intense supernatural element, representing a classical struggle between Good and Evil (or as I saw someone put it once, Order VS Chaos).

IMHO, it is most certainly not about family stories - those can certainly appear and be part of it, but they serve as a background, a anchor to show you all that can be lost and destroyed should the forces of Evil/Chaos become victorious. Ideally, an arc should have an initial element with those kinds of stories, to catch the audience and make them love a group of characters, then have a certain threat (traditionally, from the Shadowlands, but there are plenty other supernatural elements in the setting - even human-originated ones!) surface in a way that the audience knows will destroy their beloved characters, a struggle with a climax, and finally a conclusion/epilogue.

There were people in this very thread (and others) asking for a return to the past, to Clan Wars. If you look at the stories from back then, this was roughly how they were organized. While going back to the past and wiping out 20 years of history is silly (to say the least), learning the lessons from the past and using them for the future is rather wise.

The super-threat doesn't have to be supernatural, mind. Sure, the Day of Thunder and the Fall of Otosan Uchi were epic cataclysms brought about by the Shadowlands. But Chagatai's march was on a comparable level, and that was pure-human. The Scorpion Coup would probably have been, too, if it hadn't been a backstory that was already resolved.

But story arcs need to start slow, and build up to something. Unfortunately, the need for constant massive events to feed the big tournaments made that nigh-impossible in the land of L5R lately.

However, at its core, L5R is a game with an intense supernatural element, representing a classical struggle between Good and Evil (or as I saw someone put it once, Order VS Chaos).

See, the problem is, those are not the same conflict . If your story is written by people who think they are interchangeable, you are going to run into Problems.

I'm personally very tired of the "race for the throne" plotline. Day of Thunder was fine: the Emperor was murdered and his heir corrupted. He was killed and a Lion took the throne. Then he was murdered, and there were four heirs fighting for the throne. Then there was a ghost Emperor that tried to retake the throne. Then the new Emperor died without an heir. Then a random Dragon was Empress. Then there were two heirs fighting for the throne. Then the daimyo of the evil faction was about to seize the throne.

However, at its core, L5R is a game with an intense supernatural element, representing a classical struggle between Good and Evil (or as I saw someone put it once, Order VS Chaos).

See, the problem is, those are not the same conflict . If your story is written by people who think they are interchangeable, you are going to run into Problems.

Just to make sure, you're referring to good vs evil not being the same as order vs chaos, yes?

You would think that with a tagline like "honor is stronger than steel" the conflict driving the story would be neiher good vs. Evil nor chaos vs. Order, but Strength of character vs. Brute Force and opression.

You would think that with a tagline like "honor is stronger than steel" the conflict driving the story would be neiher good vs. Evil nor chaos vs. Order, but Strength of character vs. Brute Force and opression.

Well, at the moment it is a buzzline. I would not read to much into it.

You would think that with a tagline like "honor is stronger than steel" the conflict driving the story would be neiher good vs. Evil nor chaos vs. Order, but Strength of character vs. Brute Force and opression.

And it is

Think of it like this: When a character is honorable, when they follow the game's Code of Bushido, then that character is ultimately following the rules set by society and by the Celestial Heavens. In-game, they are most definitely a Good Guy, and they are firmly defending the Celestial Order, and they are also seen as someone with great inner strength. So you see, Honor is closely tied with the game's notion of Good and Order.

On the other hand, a character that is dishonorable and renounces the teachings of Bushido, then they are refusing to abide by society's laws and expectations, refusing to abide by the teachings of the Heavens. Due to that, some of them even stand against the Celestial Order, and are often seen (in-game) as untrustworthy individuals. They are also prone to falling to vice and unchecked violence as well, branding them often as Bad Guys.

Most people would indicate the Lion and the Crane as falling (mainly) on the first group, with the Scorpion, the Mantis and (definitely!) the Spider on the second one. The other Clans are a mix of shades of grey in this.

EDIT: Forgot to add - in this scheme of things, the Shadowlands fall squarely on the second group, as they renounce all things orderly and honorable in favor of brute force and oppression. They are also often described as a chaotic and jealous realm.

There are other supernatural elements in the game, but like most clans, they are colored in various shades of grey as well.

I feel it should be noted that it's often the very best of guys (within the setting) who do some of the worst oppressing (looking at you, Lion Clan)... I guess it is at least an orderly oppression?

As far as the setting's central conflict goes? I'm all in for Samurai Drama . I love the Shadowlands, and I love the nonhuman gribblies, but they should not be the primary antagonist week in week out, except for the Crab. Give me conflicts with human causes, on a human scale, even if those humans are Clan Champions, and therefore capable of mobilising massive resources. The conflict between the Heirs had great potential. The Lion/Scorpion war seemed to have engaged people on both sides, and even the Unicorn/Phoenix war - for all that it was mishandled, and arouses mostly antipathy on both sides, and partly because of those characteristics - demonstrated that people want conflicts they can feel committed to. "Ho hum, here comes Cosmic Evil #27, I guess we'd better unite the Clans and fight it off again" is not a conflict anyone particularly cares about at this point. Yes, the setting is deeply spiritual, but it should be spiritual in a way that requires the samurai to be aware and respectful of the many spirits that populate their world, not in a way that requires them to fight off ten demons before breakfast each morning.

Well, yeah... but just because an element is supernatural it doesn't need to be the primary antagonist. Or the "evil guy", so to speak. An example of such were the Kitsu (the race, not the family... and yeah yeah I know it happened just in the background I'm just giving an example here). The Nezumi/Naga were other such elements

I'm personally very tired of the "race for the throne" plotline. Day of Thunder was fine: the Emperor was murdered and his heir corrupted. He was killed and a Lion took the throne. Then he was murdered, and there were four heirs fighting for the throne. Then there was a ghost Emperor that tried to retake the throne. Then the new Emperor died without an heir. Then a random Dragon was Empress. Then there were two heirs fighting for the throne. Then the daimyo of the evil faction was about to seize the throne.

Such stories were necessary because they were about the only way to have large story events where Clans opposed each other in any meaningful way. Everyone was united and everyone Wants A Strong Empire and Wants To Serve The Emperor. The only way to get the Clans into conflict with each other that the player base won't cry foul about, is make the conflict about who gets to be the Emperor.

This is a perfect example of a thing that is screwing up the setting baked into it, that FFG could remove with a relaunch.

I'm personally very tired of the "race for the throne" plotline. Day of Thunder was fine: the Emperor was murdered and his heir corrupted. He was killed and a Lion took the throne. Then he was murdered, and there were four heirs fighting for the throne. Then there was a ghost Emperor that tried to retake the throne. Then the new Emperor died without an heir. Then a random Dragon was Empress. Then there were two heirs fighting for the throne. Then the daimyo of the evil faction was about to seize the throne.

Such stories were necessary because they were about the only way to have large story events where Clans opposed each other in any meaningful way. Everyone was united and everyone Wants A Strong Empire and Wants To Serve The Emperor. The only way to get the Clans into conflict with each other that the player base won't cry foul about, is make the conflict about who gets to be the Emperor.

This is a perfect example of a thing that is screwing up the setting baked into it, that FFG could remove with a relaunch.

I think that is the reason why I actually like the idea of Onyx.

Because you have a strong emperor, but nobody wants to serve him. You have conflict within the clans and between clans how to deal with the situation. Everything without having a race for the throne.

Also you have an emperor with a clear agenda. He knows he is hated so his main goal is to let the clans fight each other. Peace and unity would be counterproductive for his reign.

In the end it is a fairly stable setting, with lots of opportunity for war and conflict, without the need to kill off the emperor every arc.

Well, ultimately everyone would unite to kick Kanpeki's butt. It was already gearing towards that anyway.

Well, ultimately everyone would unite to kick Kanpeki's butt. It was already gearing towards that anyway.

I think that was pretty much a given and then the Spider become the Horde once again.

"In this week of Samurai Drama: The emperor dies.. again! Somebody punches a Crane in the nose! Tune in next week to find out who!"

Inter-clan conflicts are fun, but in and of themselves, "the clans fight each other" is not a story arc, nor a plot. It's just a series of unconnected plots and stories where the things that affect clan A and B's war have no relevance to the seven other clans (or however many are left).

The inter-clan conflicts need to fit within a bigger plot arc. Something bigger is happening (the exploration and creation of colonies in a far off land (Emperor) ; the disease of an emperor and the death of his entire family (Clan War) ; the throne stands empty (Gold, Samurai). A clan champion throws caution to the wind and demand the throne (Khan's March). The Imperial Families are plotting to break the clans apart in order to weaken them (the recent events). A prophecy says the Emperor will doom the empire (SCC). These are all divisive plotlines that can trigger plenty of individual conflicts between clans, and that open the door for a lot of them.

But that's the core part of it all. There has to be an arc that has a clear beginning (the prophecy is made, the imperial families start plotting), rising action, and, ultimately, a resolution that end that plot arc and pave the way for a new one.

"Inter-clan conflicts", in and of itself, can never be that.

I'm personally very tired of the "race for the throne" plotline. Day of Thunder was fine: the Emperor was murdered and his heir corrupted. He was killed and a Lion took the throne. Then he was murdered, and there were four heirs fighting for the throne. Then there was a ghost Emperor that tried to retake the throne. Then the new Emperor died without an heir. Then a random Dragon was Empress. Then there were two heirs fighting for the throne. Then the daimyo of the evil faction was about to seize the throne.

Such stories were necessary because they were about the only way to have large story events where Clans opposed each other in any meaningful way. Everyone was united and everyone Wants A Strong Empire and Wants To Serve The Emperor. The only way to get the Clans into conflict with each other that the player base won't cry foul about, is make the conflict about who gets to be the Emperor.

This is a perfect example of a thing that is screwing up the setting baked into it, that FFG could remove with a relaunch.

There were lots of stories that were engaging that had nothing to do with choosing [another] new emperor or defeating an all consuming big bad. The Scorpion had a blast doing everything in their power to punish Bayushi/Yoritomo Aramasu for his perceived betrayal. The Phoenix and Dragon coming into conflict when the Dragon lands erupted was interesting. I even liked a lot of the conflict that occurred during the Four Winds era where

They can invent all sorts of reasons for X clan to oppose Y clan, and then for them to pull one or two other clans into the conflict along with them. Peace in Rokugan is boring, but story decisions shouldn't always be "put your clan on the throne" or "unite to defeat the big bad". You could have tournaments that boiled down to "the Lion and Scorpion are at war over a tiny, but tactically significant village. Win this tournament to put your clan behind one or the other." The clans that throw in with one or the other but lose risk losing a personality in the fighting. The winners could gain Something Cool, but risk the losing clan holding resentment in the future. Those are real rewards and real story risks, but they are much smaller in scale than crowning a member of your clan the new Emperor.

If you wind up gears on the setting and just let the clans live up to their character, you're going to have plenty of conflict and reasons for them to fight. The Crane will try to gain Imperial Favor because that's in their blood. The Scorpion will try to undermine them because that's in their blood. The Crab will guard the wall, and will come to blows with anyone who tries to stand between them and that duty because that's in their blood. The Lion will respond swiftly and mercilessly to any real or perceived slight to their honor. And so on and so forth. All without another empty throne or rampaging evil god involved.

And all of these, taken alone, make for a bunch of unconnected stories that give the feeling that there is nothing happening.

It doesn't need to be the empty throne, it doesn't need to be an Evil Invasion . But there has got to be a bigger plot going on than "Clans go at each other just because it's in their blood". Otherwise you have no story to speak of.

And all of these, taken alone, make for a bunch of unconnected stories that give the feeling that there is nothing happening.

It doesn't need to be the empty throne, it doesn't need to be an Evil Invasion . But there has got to be a bigger plot going on than "Clans go at each other just because it's in their blood". Otherwise you have no story to speak of.

Hmm... how about:

Spider alchemists make a super weapon that is fueled by tainted jade. Spider intends to use this massive weapon on any who dare oppose them and their tyrannical reign of terror. Yet to fight and stop the Spider means that one would betray the Emperor they sworn to protect and ones very own homeland for a Spider sits on the throne. Yet to follow the orders and protect the Spider Emperor is to betray any sense of honor one might have if innocents are harmed by this weapon.

And all of these, taken alone, make for a bunch of unconnected stories that give the feeling that there is nothing happening.

It doesn't need to be the empty throne, it doesn't need to be an Evil Invasion . But there has got to be a bigger plot going on than "Clans go at each other just because it's in their blood". Otherwise you have no story to speak of.

I agree with that too, actually.

Not everything needs to be (or should attempt to be) an earth-shaking, end of the world decision, but there should be an overarching plot that ties it all together. I'm just so tired of the Big Bad being introduced right off the bat, and the story being completely on rails until it is defeated. The stuff that I was talking about could be stuff that exists to make sure that the clans aren't prepared for the overall threat and aren't united when it presents itself. Stuff that seems important to the clans involved, and provides a short term advantage (in story). Even if you look at the Day of Thunder, the ultimate "unite against a Big Bad" in L5R, one of the iconic moments was Yoritomo landing his armies and then blackmailing the other clans to elevate the Mantis.

The question is if it needs a big bad at all, if you have something world destroying you need to unite against minimizes the conflict.

I mean Rokugan has the most conflict, if the clans are on a constant civil war.

If you have blood feuds and contested territories, but enough dependence that shutting yourself of from the other clans is also not a solution.

Its the fault of many franchises with multiple factions.

"Together we must fight the evil big bad! .... and then we return to squabbling among ourselves until some other big bad comes knocking at our door."

Yet as a Catch-22, one needs a big bad to put a face and a name to. Even AGoT has a big bad in the form of the White Walkers and that franchise tries to make all conflict appear as gray as possible. As without a big bad, what real reason do we have to care about a fictional world's plight from one year to the next if it is same-stuff-different-day? Why one think MTG has to keep raising the stakes with each new block? And as part of this Catch-22, one can't rely on "gaijin" or outsider influence all the time as a source of Big Bad all the time. Which means one have to maintain the internal drama and keep "gaijin" influences to a bare minimum.