How about a new objective card that extends play if the Ind is still in play?

The objectives are the BIGGEST difference between Armada and X Wing.

Never going to be played. If you're first player, your opponent won't have it - and unless it sucks he probably will have very little reason to pick it if he's first.

On that note, I do expect there to be more Objectives at one point or another...

Especially since the Rules do mention how some objectives reference the Flagship, but None of the ones we have right now do...

I like to see that as fortunate foreshadowing

Yeah, I was pondering how they will introduce them, though, as they don't appear to be included in any of the Wave 2 expansions.

Perhaps a new boxed expansion set? What else would it contain, though? More upgrade cards? Unique pilots for existing squadrons? Variant ship cards? 3D obstacles?

Yeah, I was pondering how they will introduce them, though, as they don't appear to be included in any of the Wave 2 expansions.

Perhaps a new boxed expansion set? What else would it contain, though? More upgrade cards? Unique pilots for existing squadrons? Variant ship cards? 3D obstacles?

Could make everyone's dreams come true by having a Pack that was Ace Squadron Cards, More Ship Titles, and Objectives, all in one go...

They'll pull a Force Awakens move and invalidate everything you own, forcing you to buy a new core set.

Why? Because **** you, that's why!

I think a 7th round could be useful, and I refuse to believe a mechanic like that couldn't exist in the game one way or another.

Or maybe you're so awesome you don't need more than 6 turns to finish an opponent off (or you're just good at finding people that suck to play against)? /sarcasm

I think a 7th round could be useful, and I refuse to believe a mechanic like that couldn't exist in the game one way or another.

Or maybe you're so awesome you don't need more than 6 turns to finish an opponent off (or you're just good at finding people that suck to play against)? /sarcasm

That's not the problem with it for me.

The problem I have with it is the fact that there is a mandated time limit for a six turn game at the Tournament Level. Unless you are going to arbitrarily extend tournament rounds for the possibility that someone brings one, it encourages games to not finish and instead time out given the rules idea in its infancy.

HOWEVER. If the Time rules created are intentionally generous already, for the purposes of considering this sort of thing, then my problem dissolves.

What's the 300 point tourney time limit? 2 hours? In my one tournament experience, nobody had time called even the first timers in the casual setting. Most games at this point went between 60-90 minutes.

I don't think there is an issue with an extra round. The time is what matters in the tournament format. But I can definitely agree that they don't need to be exceeding that limit just to score an extra turn.

I don't think I've ever finished a 300pt match in under 2h... though I suppose there's less chatting and distractions in a tourney environment.

Like we said before, Armada (much like X-Wing) doesn't have that type of design philosophy. Ships don't come with extra rules. Those are on upgrade cards, and upgrade cards don't resolve during setup.

Obviously, once you go into house rules, you're very much free to do what you want

Maybe no ship in Armada up through wave 1 has "come with extra rules", but ships in XWing absolutely do - in many different occasions. Wave 2 introduced large base ship rules. Wave 3 ( or 4? don't remember) introduced bombs. Boost and SLAM were new rules. The TIE Phantom introduced cloaking rules. Didn't wave VII introduce rules for Bossk's escape ship? Is wave VIII introducing them for the Ghost's Phantom?

The way ships come in Armada and X-Wing are fundamentally different, though... Its difficult to compare them as comparable that way...

Instead, we f=have ship types + titles. The titles do incorporate the special rules, rather than "pilots".

On that note, I do expect there to be more Objectives at one point or another...

Especially since the Rules do mention how some objectives reference the Flagship, but None of the ones we have right now do...

I like to see that as fortunate foreshadowing

I expect them to show up in the Armada equiv of Ace packs.

You could create a gravity well projector upgrade and have some rules applie to even having the upgrade slot (this would also allow something like the CC-7700 for the rebels). I know it's kind of clunky, but what the interdictor does in and of itself is kind of clunky to bring into the game.

Since the interdictor is (IMHO) the next most well known imperial ship not named executor, I think it's only a matter of time until it shows up. I also have faith that FFG will make it work in the most elegant way possible, probably using a method none of us even thought of.

You could create a gravity well projector upgrade and have some rules applie to even having the upgrade slot (this would also allow something like the CC-7700 for the rebels). I know it's kind of clunky, but what the interdictor does in and of itself is kind of clunky to bring into the game.

Since the interdictor is (IMHO) the next most well known imperial ship not named executor, I think it's only a matter of time until it shows up. I also have faith that FFG will make it work in the most elegant way possible, probably using a method none of us even thought of.

That upgrade could go onto an ISD.

The way ships come in Armada and X-Wing are fundamentally different, though... Its difficult to compare them as comparable that way...

Instead, we f=have ship types + titles. The titles do incorporate the special rules, rather than "pilots".

I have no idea what that means - you realize that we already know that wave 2 expansions are adding new rules, right? Contain defense token, Intel, Grit, Rogue (and maybe more?)... FFG does change the rules of the game via expansions in both X-Wing and in Armada.

But none of those are the Core rules that involve Setup, etc. That is what DiabloAzul is getting at.

You could create a gravity well projector upgrade and have some rules applie to even having the upgrade slot (this would also allow something like the CC-7700 for the rebels). I know it's kind of clunky, but what the interdictor does in and of itself is kind of clunky to bring into the game.

Since the interdictor is (IMHO) the next most well known imperial ship not named executor, I think it's only a matter of time until it shows up. I also have faith that FFG will make it work in the most elegant way possible, probably using a method none of us even thought of.

That upgrade could go onto an ISD.

Sorry, I meant to say a gravity well upgrade slot.

But none of those are the Core rules that involve Setup, etc. That is what DiabloAzul is getting at.

Still not true - the VT-49 and YT-2400 expansions come with debris tokens which, if optionally chosen by a player, affect the set up of the game.

I'm not getting why there's this argument that FFG can't/won't release an expansion that affects the game setup rules. They can do whatever they want - there's nothing inherent about "design" that requires the setup to always be the same forever.

Now I'm not saying that they will for something like an Interdictor cruiser or Gravity Well Projector or whatever... but of course they can.

And arguably the objective cards themselves modify the setup rules and means of scoring points!

Edit: and I'm not trying to come across as being pedantic about semantics, in general I just don't get why anybody thinks that FFG won't/can't revise any ruling in the game, including setup. What am I missing?

VT-49 and YT-2400 are a different game, so of no concern here

Yeah, of course they can change the rules, I agree entirely. I'm just saying that unlike X-Wing, whose core rules were simply not equipped to deal with fundamentally different ships, Armada has a rules framework perfectly prepared to handle things like Gravity Well Projectors without the need to add a new paragraph to the Rules Reference document.

I'm positive FFG will revise the rules eventually to introduce new mechanics as needed (for example if that Super Star Destroyer ever does come along), but I'm also positive we won't see them adding a new paragraph of rules for each "peculiar" ship, WH40K-style, which is what was proposed above. It simply runs contrary to the entire design philosophy of the game, which is to handle quirks and special abilities by means of upgrade cards. I fully expect to see a new Gravity Well Projector upgrade icon on the Interdictor when/if it shows up. Either that, or handling the effects via unique titles.

As for setup, again, I'm not saying it's a sacred or immutable pillar of the game design. But the fact remains that, at present, the rules specify that only objective card effects can affect it. Because of the structure of the current (and potential future) objective cards, I'd be very surprised if this rule was ever changed and upgrade cards were made that could mess with it. It's safe to assume they'll stick to Needa's "At the start of the first round...".

EDIT: Grammar.

Sorry for the wall of text, but 1- my points keep getting ignored and 2- repeating something that isn't true or relevant doesn't make it any more true or relevant. Sorry if people think this is derailing the thread, but I think it is still on point. I'm not picking a fight here, I'm trying to understand.

Sadly Armada rules don't work like that.

First, upgrade cards (title or otherwise) do not resolve during game setup, so you cannot affect deployment in any way. You would have to word it to take effect at the start of the first round - like the XQ Platforms.

"First, upgrade cards (title or otherwise) do not resolve during game setup, so you cannot affect deployment in any way." - this is not true as far as I know and can determine. There's nothing in the Rules Reference or FAQ that state anything like this. What's the reference? I'm legitimately curious.

FFG aren't going to introduce new rules for a ship, it goes completely against the entire design philosophy of Armada.

This is also not true - as I've pointed out there is a new contain token, with new rules, in wave 2 that only apply to 2 ships. There are also new rules that (as far as we know) only apply to certain squadrons in the wave 2 Rogues expansion. You also refer to something called the design philosophy of Armada - this is something you keep saying, but it's a phrase you made up. There's no Armada design bible that any of us has. There are rules, and there are designers that create/modify rules, and give players clarification when necessary.

I'd say it's like making a Star Destroyer that can only use its tractor beams if you get an upgrade card for it

And, really, I agree with your general feeling. But don't expect FFG to scrap their entire design philosophy because of one cool ship from the EU.

Anyway, it's as easy as making the base Interdictor fairly expensive, but then making the title upgrades (or exclusive upgrades, if that ever becomes a thing - rules don't currently support this) cheap, free or even worth negative points so there'd be no reason not to take them.

Again, you keep using "entire design philosophy" to support your predictions - it's hard to read intent over the internet but my perception is that you wield that statement like an authoritative club, when in fact it isn't really a thing.

Like we said before, Armada (much like X-Wing) doesn't have that type of design philosophy. Ships don't come with extra rules. Those are on upgrade cards, and upgrade cards don't resolve during setup.

Here you bring X-Wing design philosophy into the picture. Yet you don't respond to my examples of X-Wing doing exactly what you claim neither X-Wing nor Armada do or "will" do. You also mention upgrade cards don't resolve during setup - again, what's the reference for that? I'm not aware of any current upgrades that resolve during setup, but that's a stretch to say the rules preclude it. Expansions in both X-Wing and Armada come with new game rules that affect the contents of that expansion. Maybe the rules will only be used by the stuff in that expansion, and maybe not.

The way ships come in Armada and X-Wing are fundamentally different, though... Its difficult to compare them as comparable that way...

Instead, we f=have ship types + titles. The titles do incorporate the special rules, rather than "pilots".

This still doesn't make sense to me - what do you mean by "the way ships come in Armada and X-Wing" as being fundamentally different and therefore not comparable?

VT-49 and YT-2400 are a different game, so of no concern here

Yeah, of course they can change the rules, I agree entirely. I'm just saying that unlike X-Wing, whose core rules were simply not equipped to deal with fundamentally different ships, Armada has a rules framework perfectly prepared to handle things like Gravity Well Projectors without the need to add a new paragraph to the Rules Reference document.

I'm positive FFG will revise the rules eventually to introduce new mechanics as needed (for example if that Super Star Destroyer ever does come along), but I'm also positive we won't see them adding a new paragraph of rules for each "peculiar" ship, WH40K-style, which is what was proposed above. It simply runs contrary to the entire design philosophy of the game, which is to handle quirks and special abilities by means of upgrade cards. I fully expect to see a new Gravity Well Projector upgrade icon on the Interdictor when/if it shows up. Either that, or handling the effects via unique titles.

As for setup, again, I'm not saying it's a sacred or immutable pillar of the game design. But the fact remains that, at present, the rules specify that only objective card effects can affect it. Because of the structure of the current (and potential future) objective cards, I'd be very surprised if this rule was ever changed and upgrade cards were made that could mess with it. It's safe to assume they'll stick to Needa's "At the start of the first round...".

EDIT: Grammar.

"VT-49 and YT-2400 are a different game, so of no concern here" - you brought up X-Wing as a design comparison point in the first place, so I think it is relevant.

"Yeah, of course they can change the rules, I agree entirely. I'm just saying that unlike X-Wing, whose core rules were simply not equipped to deal with fundamentally different ships" - what's a fundamentally different ship? One that requires a block of rules text large enough that it's difficult to fit on an upgrade card?

"Armada has a rules framework perfectly prepared to handle things like Gravity Well Projectors without the need to add a new paragraph to the Rules Reference document." I agree the framework is set up for adding new effects to the game via upgrade cards, but they also have a precedent of adding new game effect rules to the rulebook (and/or printing a rules reference card) - the first precedent is new stuff in X-Wing (again, you brought X-Wing into the discussion), and they're going to have to print the new rules for Contain, Intel, Grit, Rogue, etc. somewhere - all of those are in wave 2 and none of them are upgrades!

"I'm positive FFG will revise the rules eventually to introduce new mechanics as needed (for example if that Super Star Destroyer ever does come along), but I'm also positive we won't see them adding a new paragraph of rules for each "peculiar" ship, WH40K-style, which is what was proposed above" - not a WH40K player, so I don't know exactly what this means, but I guess this hinges on what "peculiar ship" means. I will point out that as of now only 1 ship in X-Wing can cloak and the TFA core set rules reference includes a paragraph explaining cloaking.

"As for setup, again, I'm not saying it's a sacred or immutable pillar of the game design. But the fact remains that, at present, the rules specify that only objective card effects can affect it." As I brought up earlier, there is nothing I can find that says this. And I'm the one that mentioned one could argue that objective cards modify the setup rules (in the post above your last one) - that specification isn't in the FAQ or Rules Reference that I can find.

​Again not trying to pick a fight, but I think you're trying to constrain the discussion of game effects without solid reasoning. I do agree the simplest case for adding new game effects is to simply include the effect on the card itself, whenever possible (upgrade card, or otherwise).

This still doesn't make sense to me - what do you mean by "the way ships come in Armada and X-Wing" as being fundamentally different and therefore not comparable?

Ships in X-Wing come, rules wise, as a Certain Particular "Base" - ie, the actual ship token represents the Generic, The Slightly Better or Different Generic, or the Aces...

In Armada, the Ship comes as the Ship1 or Ship2, and it is the title that you attach to it that makes it an "Ace" of its kind.

So producing an "Aces" set for Armada, involves only making more Title cards, and not making more Ship Tokens AND Ship Cards.

That's why they're fundamentally different.

I'm not saying the Armada way is better, but it does seem a little more refined.

Sorry for the wall of text, but 1- my points keep getting ignored and 2- repeating something that isn't true or relevant doesn't make it any more true or relevant. Sorry if people think this is derailing the thread, but I think it is still on point. I'm not picking a fight here, I'm trying to understand.

"First, upgrade cards (title or otherwise) do not resolve during game setup, so you cannot affect deployment in any way." - this is not true as far as I know and can determine. There's nothing in the Rules Reference or FAQ that state anything like this. What's the reference? I'm legitimately curious.

I don't meant to be rude or overly defensive, but you may want to read the rules carefully before you take on such an accusatory tone:

Rules Reference, p.5, EFFECT USE AND TIMING:

"During setup, no card effects can be resolved except objective card effects."

FFG aren't going to introduce new rules for a ship, it goes completely against the entire design philosophy of Armada.

This is also not true - as I've pointed out there is a new contain token, with new rules, in wave 2 that only apply to 2 ships. There are also new rules that (as far as we know) only apply to certain squadrons in the wave 2 Rogues expansion. You also refer to something called the design philosophy of Armada - this is something you keep saying, but it's a phrase you made up. There's no Armada design bible that any of us has. There are rules, and there are designers that create/modify rules, and give players clarification when necessary.

[...]

Again, you keep using "entire design philosophy" to support your predictions - it's hard to read intent over the internet but my perception is that you wield that statement like an authoritative club, when in fact it isn't really a thing.

Condescension wasn't my intent, if that's what you mean. But you can't pretend there is no design philosophy at play, or that its general principles aren't plain and obvious, at least once you give some attention to the matter. Compare Armada with virtually any other miniatures game and you'll immediately see what they've tried to do. I suppose you could consider it a form of Exception Based Design (as used in e.g. D&D 4th Edition).

You're right about the Contain token and the Intel/Rogue/Grit keywords of course - but I don't consider them new "rules" as much as new building blocks that fit perfectly well within the existing rules structure, with little or no additional explanation required: we already know when and how defense tokens are resolved, and how to read squadron keywords. Two lists just got longer, yes, but that's not the same as adding a paragraph of new setup-modifying rules based on the presence of a specific ship.

Like we said before, Armada (much like X-Wing) doesn't have that type of design philosophy. Ships don't come with extra rules. Those are on upgrade cards, and upgrade cards don't resolve during setup.

Here you bring X-Wing design philosophy into the picture. Yet you don't respond to my examples of X-Wing doing exactly what you claim neither X-Wing nor Armada do or "will" do.

X-Wing was the earlier game, pioneering this "building blocks" philosophy. Adjustments were required because the original rules simply didn't give them much room to maneuver. For the most part (the main exception being Bombs, I suppose) the new rules were all needed to deal with ships that behave differently in the two core aspects of the game, i.e. moving and shooting. Armada will also need them if they ever introduce something like an SSD or an immobile platform.

"VT-49 and YT-2400 are a different game, so of no concern here" - you brought up X-Wing as a design comparison point in the first place, so I think it is relevant.

I agree the framework is set up for adding new effects to the game via upgrade cards, but they also have a precedent of adding new game effect rules to the rulebook (and/or printing a rules reference card) - the first precedent is new stuff in X-Wing (again, you brought X-Wing into the discussion)

It was a tongue-in-cheek statement (surely you didn't miss the ). X-Wing and Armada share a similar design philosophy, which I made a passing reference to, but they're not the same game. You used those two as evidence against my arguments regarding Armada, which I don't think is fair. In any case, I don't see the new X-Wing Rules Reference mention either of those by name, so my original point (we won't see anything remotely like "If a player's fleet has an Interdictor, then..." in the rules) still applies here.

[Ran out of quote blocks, continued below.]

"Yeah, of course they can change the rules, I agree entirely. I'm just saying that unlike X-Wing, whose core rules were simply not equipped to deal with fundamentally different ships" - what's a fundamentally different ship? One that requires a block of rules text large enough that it's difficult to fit on an upgrade card?

That's one way to look at it. Different base size, different shooting constraints, different moving constraints. I think differences between fighter-scale craft in Star Wars are much greater than differences between capital-scale craft. Maybe my use of the word "fundamentally" was a bit of an exaggeration, but X-Wing was (understandably) only originally prepared to deal with snubfighters, whereas Armada was built from the ground up with enough foresight to deal with a much broader spectrum of unit, so we'll be seeing fewer new core mechanics.

...and they're going to have to print the new rules for Contain, Intel, Grit, Rogue, etc. somewhere - all of those are in wave 2 and none of them are upgrades!

This is entirely true. Just like, if they add a Gravity Well Projector (or any other) upgrade icon, they will have to include it in the Rules Reference. But none of these things qualifies as, or is comparable to, a ship-specific change to the core mechanics.

"I'm positive FFG will revise the rules eventually to introduce new mechanics as needed (for example if that Super Star Destroyer ever does come along), but I'm also positive we won't see them adding a new paragraph of rules for each "peculiar" ship, WH40K-style, which is what was proposed above" - not a WH40K player, so I don't know exactly what this means, but I guess this hinges on what "peculiar ship" means.

Flames of War? AT-43/Confrontation maybe? In the majority of "old-school" miniature wargames, each faction has a book (or "codex") with a list of their units and stats. Each unit will often have a paragraph (or several pages) of special rules specific to that unit. And even the core rulebook will often say something like "unit X has a +1 bonus when performing action Y". Makes for a lot of page-flipping.

I will point out that as of now only 1 ship in X-Wing can cloak and the TFA core set rules reference includes a paragraph explaining cloaking.

X-Wing <---> Armada, but yes, point taken.

​Again not trying to pick a fight, but I think you're trying to constrain the discussion of game effects without solid reasoning. I do agree the simplest case for adding new game effects is to simply include the effect on the card itself, whenever possible (upgrade card, or otherwise).

I might have been overly dismissive, and if so I apologize.

EDIT: Quote blocks fix0red.

Sorry for the wall of text, but 1- my points keep getting ignored and 2- repeating something that isn't true or relevant doesn't make it any more true or relevant. Sorry if people think this is derailing the thread, but I think it is still on point. I'm not picking a fight here, I'm trying to understand.

"First, upgrade cards (title or otherwise) do not resolve during game setup, so you cannot affect deployment in any way." - this is not true as far as I know and can determine. There's nothing in the Rules Reference or FAQ that state anything like this. What's the reference? I'm legitimately curious.

I don't meant to be rude or overly defensive, but you may want to read the rules carefully before you take on such an accusatory tone:

Rules Reference, p.5, EFFECT USE AND TIMING:

"During setup, no card effects can be resolved except objective card effects."

Thanks for responding, as I said I did try to find that specific rule, but I did indeed miss it. As for the rest of it, I've already said what I wanted to say and I'll just agree to disagree at this point. I've tried to keep my own tone limited to a manner of discussion and I apologize if I've miscommunicated - it is pretty tough to convey intended tone in writing over the internet. I hope I haven't offended.

In any case, I look forward to everyone's ideas on what an Interdictor cruiser might be in Armada as I think I think it's an interesting concept.