Just out of interest regarding #2 (Which I agree with, for what it's worth), where has the math for the adjusted jousting values been done? I hadn't noticed a MajorJuggler post anywhere, but I might have simply missed it...

Some efficiency numbers.

----------------------------------------- Old vs new -----------------------------------

Cost | | PS1 Jousting Efficiency | req

Ship name actual|predict| PS1 | JV | std | range | eff

PS2 T-65 X-wing 21 | 18.6 | 20.2 | 18.1 | 89.7% | 87.6% - 91.5% | 131.2%

PS2 T-70 X-wing 24 | TBD | 23 | 19.9 | 86.2% | 84.3% - 87.8% | 140.8%

PS2 B-wing 22 | 21.1 | 21.1 | 19.6 | 92.7% | 90% - 94.9% | 123.5%

PS2 T-65 + 1 cost Shield 22 | 20.5 | 21.1 | 19.9 | 94.1% | 92% - 95.8% | 120.4%

The Biggs(est) winners are Biggs and Tarn. (I know; everybody knows )

This IA-buff may not seem 'much' but it sure helps lots to make the X-Wing competitive.

For the moment it is not enough to make the X reappear in tournament lists in strength. (expecting lots of Biggs though)

But with a title as an option still out there and the easy adding of more numerous cheap astromechs I think the X will be fine.

(eventually)

Integrated Astromech is nothing special.

Just compate it to TIE advanced fix.... we are comparing "ignore 1 hit" vs "don't pay for your System upgrade" (WOW!) and brand new upgrade that is saying you can always add additional (WOW) dice to your hit pool, what's more - it's always a critical hit. The only thing you need to do is to maintain target lock on defender. Sweet! This means possible 3 hits including auto critical... or 4 hits with auto critical at range 1, or 6 hits including auto critical with proton rockets. Insane!!! T-65s are crap compared to TIE Advanced.

And it's a title so still place for modification? WOW!

How... we can say that Integrated Astromech is good against such thing?

TIE Advanced is getting same 3/2 HP followed by 3 (!) green dice (with a droid to sacrifice X is negating 1 hit) and in the same time TIE have Evade Action as well as BARREL ROLL (and Speed 5 move) followed by 3 Green Dice and same if not better firepower. Pilot skills stays the same - PS2. There is nothing to compare and .... TIE is still one point cheaper. 21 vs 22 points for a worse ship. There is no argument that can put Xwing over TIE Advanced.

That's why we can see TIEs on tournaments - and T-65s are not present at all.... with exception of Biggs - but it's more about Biggs ability not the ship. In friendly, casual games you can play with everything you want - and T-65s fits nice there.

FFG Like money.

People like X-wings.

The T-65 has an empty Title slot.

They don't need new sculpts or molds for a repaint.

I mean c'mon, a Rebel Aces II with some more X-wing love would sell like hotcakes!

Padre

And no one is making that argument...

Fact remains that IA is a good, little buff for the Xwing that definitely helps it play a role better than before. Maybe it's not the ice cream flavor you wanted, but it's ice cream and better than nothing.

FFG Like money.

People like X-wings.

The T-65 has an empty Title slot.

They don't need new sculpts or molds for a repaint.

I mean c'mon, a Rebel Aces II with some more X-wing love would sell like hotcakes!

And this is something I'm reffering to.

T-65s needs another fix, with a Title giving them advantage to keep up with most recent releases.

I'm just a bit scared that FFG will focus on T-70s as they are also X-wings and are brand new thing - in December in cinemas. I think that updates are going to be related with T-70... I'm not expecting T-65 relase as all aces are already on board... Besides, we have 3 X-wing T-65 sets available - core, transport and stand alone T-65. I can't see room for any new release... Sad because there are tons of Rebel pilots, but I think this is the way things will go.

We will see, fingers crossed I want to see T-65s on the tables!

TIE Advanced is getting same 3/2 HP followed by 3 (!) green dice (with a droid to sacrifice X is negating 1 hit) and in the same time TIE have Evade Action as well as BARREL ROLL (and Speed 5 move) followed by 3 Green Dice and same if not better firepower. Pilot skills stays the same - PS2. There is nothing to compare and .... TIE is still one point cheaper. 21 vs 22 points for a worse ship. There is no argument that can put Xwing over TIE Advanced.

If the Tempest Squadron TIE Advanced is running Advanced Targeting Computer it's 22 points, not 21.

If you think that running ATC on a Tempest gives it a reliable 2 dice plus an extra crit, you haven't tried running it. You do NOT want to put ATC on a PS2 ship, because it's a nightmare gaining target lock then maintaining an arc on any ship that moves after you. That's why more-or-less everyone who runs generic Advanced gives them Accuracy Corrector.

You don't need to make an argument for the X-Wing over the TIE-Advanced because they don't share a faction. But if you did, the argument would go: the X-Wing has an extra hitpoint-and-a-bit, it has a better dial, it's more dangerous at Range 1, it's more of a threat to anything with 3 green dice, it can carry the Stressbot and sometimes a glass cannon just fits your squad better than a tank does.

I forsee an X-Wing Aces (Rebel Aces 2) announcing around December-Feb and releasing in summer, focusing on X-wings. I imagine a checker-nosed T-65 and a black and orange T-70, with Corran Horn and Tycho Celchu as the T-65 pilots, and Greg Grunberg's character from EP7 with either a main star (Finn, Rey, maybe a new Luke) or another Leader/Ace as the T-70 pilots, with a T-65 title, a another new droid or two, another tech upgrade, and probably a new Elite upgrade.

I also imagine a New Order Aces (Imperial Aces 2) with new pilots and upgrades for the FO Tie and Special Forces TIE (Wave 9) and a new secondary turret to go with the SFTie

Also, wave 9, most likely only 3 ships as after W8 all three factions are equal, likely to be the EP7 Y-wing, the SF Tie, and something for scum, probably from either the new movie or rebels

I like BB-8 and integrated astromech on Biggs, for positioning and to keep at range 3 as much as possible.

1. Please don't compare Integrated Astro to the Tie Advance title anymore. Tie advanced was hilariously broken and needed a huge fix. The T-65, contrary to what many seem to believe, wasn't and didn't.

2. We still don't know what the new astro in the T-70 blister does. I expect it will be a useful but not earth-shattering effect with small cost similar to R2 astro. Anything that will give an offensive bump will make the generic T-65 a very interesting list component.

3. Boost with a generic X-wing comes with a very steep hidden cost: Unmodified Dice. Unless you managed to land a target lock on a previous turn, attacking (or defending) with no modification is a big deal.

4. Predicting the future competitiveness of the T-65 is futile at this point. You can say that IA is not enough to make you want to fly them but beyond that, you're just guessing. I really expect that BBXXZ will be a thing in the future. I have only, ever, flown BBBBZ competitively. (I always forget triggers at some point for fancy-pants pilots) When I get my hands on the T-70 blisters, two B's get replaced with IA T-65's (with R2's unless the new targeting mech is 1pt). Just compare the two dials!

1. Please don't compare Integrated Astro to the Tie Advance title anymore. Tie advanced was hilariously broken and needed a huge fix. The T-65, contrary to what many seem to believe, wasn't and didn't.

2. We still don't know what the new astro in the T-70 blister does. I expect it will be a useful but not earth-shattering effect with small cost similar to R2 astro. Anything that will give an offensive bump will make the generic T-65 a very interesting list component.

3. Boost with a generic X-wing comes with a very steep hidden cost: Unmodified Dice. Unless you managed to land a target lock on a previous turn, attacking (or defending) with no modification is a big deal.

4. Predicting the future competitiveness of the T-65 is futile at this point. You can say that IA is not enough to make you want to fly them but beyond that, you're just guessing. I really expect that BBXXZ will be a thing in the future. I have only, ever, flown BBBBZ competitively. (I always forget triggers at some point for fancy-pants pilots) When I get my hands on the T-70 blisters, two B's get replaced with IA T-65's (with R2's unless the new targeting mech is 1pt). Just compare the two dials!

1) Since the core the X-wing has been broken relative to the Tie fighter. Taking X-wings against Tie fighters was a very difficult task: You couldn't out-joust them, and they have a better dial and post-maneuver actions.

As soon as anything came along that filled a similar niche, the X-wing got outclassed, first by the B-wing as a jouster, then by the Z-95 as filler. It has nowhere to go, and nothing to be. It is the Nowhere Ship.

2) You know how useful the R2 Astro is on a ship with a single red maneuver on it's dial is? None. None useful. 'Ah but what about Stress-Wing lists?' You ask. I'll tell you: any stress-wing player worth their salt is going to take more than 1 stress-capable ship (or one that can deal more than one stress, such as StressHog).

Either way, you'll have more stress than poor R2 can get rid of, and then throw him away in an attempt to stay alive after losing your actions. Any more expensive Astro's and those MathWing figures start favoring the B-wing again, so you'd better hope that Targeting Astro is 1 pt, although the K4 droid is 3, and everyone thinks Targeting Astro is going to be a K4 Astro.

3) Boost gives you options to make in a tight situation. Maybe you're almost out of arc, but they'll still get a shot. With boost you can choose to Boost out of arc, possibly giving up a shot of your own, or Focus and try and dodge the damage, whilst being able to modify your dice if you have a shot of your own. This is what makes flying ships in the game interesting.

4) I might not be able to predict the future, but I can tell you about the games I've played using IA. It's made a 'make or break' difference once. All the other times, I've either won or lost regardless of the upgrade. The X-wing will still be murdered by Arc-Dodgers or Arc-Dodging turrets, it'll still be out-jousted by Tie-Fighters. It'll just take a bit longer to die.

1. Please don't compare Integrated Astro to the Tie Advance title anymore. Tie advanced was hilariously broken and needed a huge fix. The T-65, contrary to what many seem to believe, wasn't and didn't.

2. We still don't know what the new astro in the T-70 blister does. I expect it will be a useful but not earth-shattering effect with small cost similar to R2 astro. Anything that will give an offensive bump will make the generic T-65 a very interesting list component.

3. Boost with a generic X-wing comes with a very steep hidden cost: Unmodified Dice. Unless you managed to land a target lock on a previous turn, attacking (or defending) with no modification is a big deal.

4. Predicting the future competitiveness of the T-65 is futile at this point. You can say that IA is not enough to make you want to fly them but beyond that, you're just guessing. I really expect that BBXXZ will be a thing in the future. I have only, ever, flown BBBBZ competitively. (I always forget triggers at some point for fancy-pants pilots) When I get my hands on the T-70 blisters, two B's get replaced with IA T-65's (with R2's unless the new targeting mech is 1pt). Just compare the two dials!

That's actually something I've been interested about - as a BBBBZ player, what does the dial give you, tactics-wise? I mean, what options do you see it opening up, how would your 'default' flying them compare?

I hope the question makes sense. I haven't had any coffee yet.

Integrated Astromech is nothing special.

Just compate it to TIE advanced fix.... we are comparing "ignore 1 hit" vs "don't pay for your System upgrade" (WOW!) and brand new upgrade that is saying you can always add additional (WOW) dice to your hit pool, what's more - it's always a critical hit. The only thing you need to do is to maintain target lock on defender. Sweet! This means possible 3 hits including auto critical... or 4 hits with auto critical at range 1, or 6 hits including auto critical with proton rockets. Insane!!! T-65s are crap compared to TIE Advanced.

And it's a title so still place for modification? WOW!

How... we can say that Integrated Astromech is good against such thing?

TIE Advanced is getting same 3/2 HP followed by 3 (!) green dice (with a droid to sacrifice X is negating 1 hit) and in the same time TIE have Evade Action as well as BARREL ROLL (and Speed 5 move) followed by 3 Green Dice and same if not better firepower. Pilot skills stays the same - PS2. There is nothing to compare and .... TIE is still one point cheaper. 21 vs 22 points for a worse ship. There is no argument that can put Xwing over TIE Advanced.

That's why we can see TIEs on tournaments - and T-65s are not present at all.... with exception of Biggs - but it's more about Biggs ability not the ship. In friendly, casual games you can play with everything you want - and T-65s fits nice there.

A Storm Squadron Pilot with an ATC is the same price as a Rookie with an R2 (or any other 1 point astromech) and Integrated Astromech.

The Storm Squadron must maintain his target lock in order to use his ATC. Getting a target lock on a viable target with PS2 is hard, and it means he forgoes the use of his other actions like Barrel Roll or Evade that round. He also has a much harder to use dial with no 1 straight and much less green (compared to an R2 supported X Wing) and less hitpoints, and less native attack dice.

He gets more green dice and has the potential to do just as much damage with an ATC and target lock.

Which, for the same points, I think is fair. I certainly feel like 4 rookies vs 4 storms is an even match.

snip

1) Since the core the X-wing has been broken relative to the Tie fighter. Taking X-wings against Tie fighters was a very difficult task: You couldn't out-joust them, and they have a better dial and post-maneuver actions.

As soon as anything came along that filled a similar niche, the X-wing got outclassed, first by the B-wing as a jouster, then by the Z-95 as filler. It has nowhere to go, and nothing to be. It is the Nowhere Ship.

2) You know how useful the R2 Astro is on a ship with a single red maneuver on it's dial is? None. None useful. 'Ah but what about Stress-Wing lists?' You ask. I'll tell you: any stress-wing player worth their salt is going to take more than 1 stress-capable ship (or one that can deal more than one stress, such as StressHog).

Either way, you'll have more stress than poor R2 can get rid of, and then throw him away in an attempt to stay alive after losing your actions. Any more expensive Astro's and those MathWing figures start favoring the B-wing again, so you'd better hope that Targeting Astro is 1 pt, although the K4 droid is 3, and everyone thinks Targeting Astro is going to be a K4 Astro.

3) Boost gives you options to make in a tight situation. Maybe you're almost out of arc, but they'll still get a shot. With boost you can choose to Boost out of arc, possibly giving up a shot of your own, or Focus and try and dodge the damage, whilst being able to modify your dice if you have a shot of your own. This is what makes flying ships in the game interesting.

4) I might not be able to predict the future, but I can tell you about the games I've played using IA. It's made a 'make or break' difference once. All the other times, I've either won or lost regardless of the upgrade. The X-wing will still be murdered by Arc-Dodgers or Arc-Dodging turrets, it'll still be out-jousted by Tie-Fighters. It'll just take a bit longer to die.

I can't find better description of current T-65s status in game.

This is EXACTLY I want to say all the time.

Well, guys, basically do what you want, but for me T-65 is the worse Rebel ship along with HWK290.

I'm taking TIE Advanced over T-65 all day long. For me T-65s are a joke with their price tag, medicore dial (quite good with R2!) but without any movement action on action bar - and that's why they are terrible.

Please - find me a tournament where X-wing list get anywhere near 3rd place (outside Biggs taken just for his ability)

Besides, the final argument for me - action list of an Xwing is so ultra short that they are one of the most boring (and ineffective) things you can field.

Please - find me a tournament where X-wing list get anywhere near 3rd place (outside Biggs taken just for his ability)

Worlds 2014, Top 8, Wedge, Biggs, Cracken

Regionals 2015, Malmö, 2nd, Biggs, Rookie, Blue, 2xTala

Regionals 2015, Bellevue, Top 8, Luke, Corran, Cracken

Regionals 2015, Martinsburg, Top 4, Biggs, 2xBlue, Gold

Regionals 2015, Martinsburg, Top 8, BXXZZZ

Regionals 2015, Cardiff, Top 8, BXXZZZ

Regionals 2015, Milton Keynes, Top 8, Garven, Dutch, Cracken, Rookie

Regionals 2015, Sherbrooke, 2nd, Dash, 2xRookie

Regionals 2015, Toronto, Top 4, Etahn, Tarn, 3xBandit

Regionals 2015, Barcelona, 2nd, Ten Numb, Biggs, Blue, Bandit

Regionals 2015, Brussels, Top 4, BXAAAZ

Regionals 2015, Málaga, Top 4, Wedge, Tarn, Biggs, Rookie

This will suffice for now.

According to List Juggler, there are only 4 ships more used than X-Wings, which make up 5.1% of the lists.

If you think the Storm Squadron pilot is a good buy, then you should think the Rookie is a good buy. If you think the Blue Squadron pilot is a good buy, then you should think the Rookie is a good buy. Their abilities marry up to their costs just fine. Yes, they lack a repositioning ability (although you can get droids to help with that) but IMO that's not as necessary as people think. Not for a cheaper ship with low pilot skill. The value of a barrel roll or boost increases with the pilot skill of the ship.

Please - find me a tournament where X-wing list get anywhere near 3rd place (outside Biggs taken just for his ability)

According to List Juggler, there are only 4 ships more used than X-Wings, which make up 5.1% of the lists.

Until you press the 'regional championship lists' IE. the ones people are using properly competitively. Because at that point the X-wing drops to 3.5%, narrowly beating out the A-wing and pre-TLT Y-wing and HWK.

As far as pilots go, not a single X-wing pilot makes it above 1% in the total lists, the highest being Rookie, the one everyone thinks needs a fix the most, while Porkins sits at the abysmal 0.02%. That's beneath FEL'S WRATH. Let that sink in.

Until you press the 'regional championship lists' IE. the ones people are using properly competitively.

Until you look at the results and see X-Wings end up near the top on a regular basis.

What do I care for people netdecking a list?

Until you press the 'regional championship lists' IE. the ones people are using properly competitively.

Until you look at the results and see X-Wings end up near the top on a regular basis.

What do I care for people netdecking a list?

How many different regional championships were there?

EDIT: Oh, incidentally, No X-wings even made top 16 in the UK Nationals.

And let's take out the Top 8s from that list.

Regionals 2015, Malmö, 2nd, Biggs, Rookie, Blue, 2xTala

Regionals 2015, Martinsburg, Top 4, Biggs, 2xBlue, Gold

Regionals 2015, Sherbrooke, 2nd, Dash, 2xRookie

Regionals 2015, Toronto, Top 4, Etahn, Tarn, 3xBandit

Regionals 2015, Barcelona, 2nd, Ten Numb, Biggs, Blue, Bandit

Regionals 2015, Brussels, Top 4, BXAAAZ

Regionals 2015, Málaga, Top 4, Wedge, Tarn, Biggs, Rookie

Now let's remove Biggs.

Regionals 2015, Sherbrooke, 2nd, Dash, 2xRookie

Regionals 2015, Toronto, Top 4, Etahn, Tarn, 3xBandit

Regionals 2015, Brussels, Top 4, BXAAAZ

Three lists, none of them won, and only one made it into the final.

Can't say I'm bedazzled by your statistics yet.

Until you press the 'regional championship lists' IE. the ones people are using properly competitively.

Until you look at the results and see X-Wings end up near the top on a regular basis.

What do I care for people netdecking a list?

How many different regional championships were there?

EDIT: Oh, incidentally, No X-wings even made top 16 in the UK Nationals.

And let's take out the Top 8s from that list.

Regionals 2015, Malmö, 2nd, Biggs, Rookie, Blue, 2xTala

Regionals 2015, Martinsburg, Top 4, Biggs, 2xBlue, Gold

Regionals 2015, Sherbrooke, 2nd, Dash, 2xRookie

Regionals 2015, Toronto, Top 4, Etahn, Tarn, 3xBandit

Regionals 2015, Barcelona, 2nd, Ten Numb, Biggs, Blue, Bandit

Regionals 2015, Brussels, Top 4, BXAAAZ

Regionals 2015, Málaga, Top 4, Wedge, Tarn, Biggs, Rookie

Now let's remove Biggs.

Regionals 2015, Sherbrooke, 2nd, Dash, 2xRookie

Regionals 2015, Toronto, Top 4, Etahn, Tarn, 3xBandit

Regionals 2015, Brussels, Top 4, BXAAAZ

Three lists, none of them won, and only one made it into the final.

Can't say I'm bedazzled by your statistics yet.

You are aware that half the list you removed because of Biggs had other X-Wings?

You are aware that half the list you removed because of Biggs had other X-Wings?

I'm ever so sorry, would this list be more to your liking?

Regionals 2015, Malmö, 2nd, Biggs, Rookie, Blue, 2xTala

Regionals 2015, Sherbrooke, 2nd, Dash, 2xRookie

Regionals 2015, Toronto, Top 4, Etahn, Tarn, 3xBandit

Regionals 2015, Brussels, Top 4, BXAAAZ

Regionals 2015, Málaga, Top 4, Wedge, Tarn, Biggs, Rookie

Oh Boy! 5 lists, still no winners. You sure caught me out there! I guess the X-wing is a tournament viable ship after all!

Nice of you to keep moving the goalposts. First it was near the top 3, now that you've been provided with those lists you invalidate them because there were no winners.

Nice of you to keep moving the goalposts. First it was near the top 3, now that you've been provided with those lists you invalidate them because there were no winners.

They were never my goalposts mate, but you still can't hit the open goal regardless. Maybe bringing up these statistics was a bad idea on your behalf.

Sorry, all these tournaments have been run since the release of the Integrated Astromech?

Tournaments have a lot of artificial restrictions that make them a poor metric with which to measure balance anyway. Strict adherence to the 100/6 format, MOV, timed rounds, no proxying, etc. A rookie with Integrated Astromech is a good buy, same as a Blue Squadron or fixed Storm Squadron.

Integrated Astromech is nothing special.

Just compate it to TIE advanced fix.... we are comparing "ignore 1 hit" vs "don't pay for your System upgrade" (WOW!) and brand new upgrade that is saying you can always add additional (WOW) dice to your hit pool, what's more - it's always a critical hit. The only thing you need to do is to maintain target lock on defender. Sweet! This means possible 3 hits including auto critical... or 4 hits with auto critical at range 1, or 6 hits including auto critical with proton rockets. Insane!!! T-65s are crap compared to TIE Advanced.

And it's a title so still place for modification? WOW!

How... we can say that Integrated Astromech is good against such thing?

TIE Advanced is getting same 3/2 HP followed by 3 (!) green dice (with a droid to sacrifice X is negating 1 hit) and in the same time TIE have Evade Action as well as BARREL ROLL (and Speed 5 move) followed by 3 Green Dice and same if not better firepower. Pilot skills stays the same - PS2. There is nothing to compare and .... TIE is still one point cheaper. 21 vs 22 points for a worse ship. There is no argument that can put Xwing over TIE Advanced.

That's why we can see TIEs on tournaments - and T-65s are not present at all.... with exception of Biggs - but it's more about Biggs ability not the ship. In friendly, casual games you can play with everything you want - and T-65s fits nice there.

A Storm Squadron Pilot with an ATC is the same price as a Rookie with an R2 (or any other 1 point astromech) and Integrated Astromech.

The Storm Squadron must maintain his target lock in order to use his ATC. Getting a target lock on a viable target with PS2 is hard, and it means he forgoes the use of his other actions like Barrel Roll or Evade that round. He also has a much harder to use dial with no 1 straight and much less green (compared to an R2 supported X Wing) and less hitpoints, and less native attack dice.

He gets more green dice and has the potential to do just as much damage with an ATC and target lock.

Which, for the same points, I think is fair. I certainly feel like 4 rookies vs 4 storms is an even match.

Storm + ATC costs 2 more than a Rookie + 1pt Astromech.