Good point. For some reason I had it in my head the Storm was 21 points. That even further reinforces the point.

EDIT: Because I was thinking of the Tempest

Wait, why are we all arguing over the tournament-competitiveness of the pre-buffed X-wing? We knew it needed help. It just got some help. Maybe not the help, but it sure as heck helps!

It will be interesting to see what happens going forward from here, is what I'm saying.

And that Porkins+R3A2 build is interesting. Never occurred to me to just use Integrated Astromech to blunt the self-harm of... integrated astromech.

Now we just need some minor repositioning ability that isn't Boost, and arc-dodgers will be sweating heavily. Thing is, that could just as easily be another astromech itself, say:

R3 Astromech (1pt):

Astromech

When you reveal a (bank) manoeuvre, you may instead perform a (straight) manoeuvre of the same speed.

At this point, the X-wing isn't bad at all. It's that its most defining upgrade slot, full of upgrades that it is, is still short on things that are actually good for it.

And please, just because a ship is not featured in a tournament winning list does not negate its properties, good or bad. Give the players SOME credit for creating lists, adapting to them, and outflying their opponent. This is a tired and terrible premise because it's subjective (ie: player choice) in nature.

Back to the discussion at hand: I'm not sure the Xwing will receive an extracurricular movement because of the options available from some astromechs. It might happen, but I imagine FFG making the Xwing into one of two things: either, A, an offensive workhorse or, B, a synergistic team player through the use of the still open title slot.

I'd actually be happy with 'offensive workhorse'.

Rebels have no shortage of synergistic effects going on without deliberately making the X-wings-as-a-class into a jousting HWK.

4 straight and 3 turns should help an Xwing chase down a wounded fattie and make reaching a TLT blind spot much easier. Beings are great if you can just inch along the board but sometimes a burst of speed is needed.

It'd need to be the right ship in the right place to have that burst of speed count though, right?

Would you generally field them as two pairs, or with the X-wings bracketing the Bs, or...?

I know, I know, deployment varies hugely. But a couple examples might help me get my head around it. I could never afford 4x B-wings, so I never tried BBBBZ to know... but BBXXZ is certainly on my to-do list.

X-wing looks good on paper, it hot hulls, shields, 3 firepower... but it's lack of maneuvers is making it close to useless vs agile high PS pilots, that smply outfly X-wing leaving it with no options. For me, Y-wing with TLT is dozen times better. If it's Scummy Y-wing, it's even more efficient thanks to Range 3 green maneuvers.

On last tournament that went in my country, there was one good list with X-wing - it was of course Biggs (no surprises) along with BBB. It was really nice and tough - but as you can see, X-wings did not went too well, they were not present in top lits - just one mentioned list at 16th place.

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=668

If anything scored anything at Rebel side, it's a big ship (Outrider or Falcon) with some fillers/Ace. In such 'squize your list to the max' enviroment, there is no place for crap ships like X-wing... and this is sad, but true.

I know it's boring, but efficient - when you aim for tournaments, you need efficient list, not "fun to play". Fun will come with results

Looking forward for T-65s fix, but ... I'm almost sure it simply won't come.

First of all, there's been plenty of evidence that people have been taking X Wings to tournaments and getting top ten placings with them. And this is the pre-IA X Wing.

Second of all, Tournaments aren't the only way to measure efficacy. They have strict rules and limitations that don't mirror 'blank slate' gaming. The cash limitations, the time limits, MOV, ease of play, etc. These conditions provide boosts to some lists and ships that is entirely artificial.

Third of all, it's not the lack of repositioning ability that has hurt the X Wing, it's the lack of durability. They have to work harder to get elusive targets in their sights and it takes longer. A lot of the time, they take too many hits along the way. The jousting values recommended almost exactly this fix. Extra hull. Instead we got an extra shield (but better) and get the benefit of an astromech until we are on our last hit point.

They balance out now against the B Wing, and compare equitably with the Tempest. With that extra hit point and the ability to choose when to use it, they are worth their points.

They weren't lagging so far behind the 8 ball that they needed a massive boost like the Advanced. So they didn't get one.

I think there's more love for the X Wing coming. I don't see how they can drag out ridiculous EU ships like the Kirhaxz or the K Wing and NOT consider dipping their toes into the rich vein of lore that is Rogue Squadron. And no orange and black T70? They wrung four or five ships out of a five second scene with some bounty hunters in the Empire Strikes Back, but an actual new, differently coloured ship on screen and they haven't released it for X Wing yet? Come on, it's in the works for sure.

let's hope so, it would be great to field T-65s outside casual level Epic games.

I'd just like to add, that thematically, maybe X-Wings are supposed to suck without an Astromech. They're never flown without them in the films. For that reason I quite like this upgrade.

It'd need to be the right ship in the right place to have that burst of speed count though, right?

Would you generally field them as two pairs, or with the X-wings bracketing the Bs, or...?

I know, I know, deployment varies hugely. But a couple examples might help me get my head around it. I could never afford 4x B-wings, so I never tried BBBBZ to know... but BBXXZ is certainly on my to-do list.

In general, I would hold the X's behind the B's and let the opponent choose to hammer shields or go against extra green dice. Try to keep X's alive if possible so that boosting fatties can't just run away until time. When facing TLT's, get X's closer to front so they can try to jump into range 1. As for deployment, I don't have a solid plan yet. With BBBBZ,I generally spread my B-wings into a loose line with the Z on a flank but that really depends on what I am facing and where the lanes are in the asteroid fields. Against a two ship list, I would probably pair the B's and X's and separate them a little. With swarms, you just need to create a flexible arrangement because your opponent will almost always set up after all your ships.

X-wing looks good on paper, it hot hulls, shields, 3 firepower... but it's lack of maneuvers is making it close to useless vs agile high PS pilots, that smply outfly X-wing leaving it with no options. For me, Y-wing with TLT is dozen times better. If it's Scummy Y-wing, it's even more efficient thanks to Range 3 green maneuvers.

On last tournament that went in my country, there was one good list with X-wing - it was of course Biggs (no surprises) along with BBB. It was really nice and tough - but as you can see, X-wings did not went too well, they were not present in top lits - just one mentioned list at 16th place.

http://lists.starwarsclubhouse.com/get_tourney_details?tourney_id=668

If anything scored anything at Rebel side, it's a big ship (Outrider or Falcon) with some fillers/Ace. In such 'squize your list to the max' enviroment, there is no place for crap ships like X-wing... and this is sad, but true.

I know it's boring, but efficient - when you aim for tournaments, you need efficient list, not "fun to play". Fun will come with results

Looking forward for T-65s fix, but ... I'm almost sure it simply won't come.

X-wings have almost all maneuvers except the hard 1 and very little red. What they lack is post-maneuver adjustments. These don't matter too much to the rookie anyway because you're moving first. Of course TLT Y is easier to fly! Flying X-wings will still require you to beat your opponent in the planning phase. The only difference with IA is that you are getting your points worth when you put X-wings in your squad.

Tourney results from before IA simply indicate the X-wing could use a bump. Let's see what regionals look like next year and then discuss tournament viability.

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

X-wings have almost all maneuvers except the hard 1 and very little red. What they lack is post-maneuver adjustments. These don't matter too much to the rookie anyway because you're moving first. Of course TLT Y is easier to fly! Flying X-wings will still require you to beat your opponent in the planning phase. The only difference with IA is that you are getting your points worth when you put X-wings in your squad.

Tourney results from before IA simply indicate the X-wing could use a bump. Let's see what regionals look like next year and then discuss tournament viability.

Well.... with PS9 pilots on board, T-65s still have no way to outmaneuver things like Vader or Fel.

I like your optimism, but without any further fixes - T-65s won't appear on tournament scene with Biggs ability as exception.

As for me, Proton A-wing is much better choise with ~ points tag.... basically everything is better with X-wing points range.

Well.... with PS9 pilots on board, T-65s still have no way to outmaneuver things like Vader or Fel.

Okay, I'm struggling to say this without being snide, but why is the entire crowd clamoring for another X-wing fix forgetting BB-8? You want a maneuver option? You got it. You need durability? Hello there, integrated astromech.

Who needs engine upgrade when you've got that lovable little beach ball? Sure, he's unique (Because he'd be utterly bonkers if he wasn't), but how many high PS X-wings were you running? Two of the three members of the classic Trench run trio already has their eyes on other options (Biggs wants R4-D6 to absorb HLC shots, Luke wants R2-D2 to regenerate shields), so Wedge is the only one who needs him, anyway.

Trench Run Trio 2.0

Wedge Antilles (29)

Push the Limit (3)

BB-8 (2)

Integrated Astromech (0)

Biggs Darklighter (25)

R4-D6 (1)

Integrated Astromech (0)

Luke Skywalker (28)

Draw Their Fire (1)

R2-D2 (4)

Engine Upgrade (4)

Total: 97

View in Yet Another Squad Builder

Would switch the EU over to Wedge. BB-8 and PTL scream engine upgrade to me. Wedge can barrel roll, boost, move or barrel roll, move, boost and still have TL or Focus every round and never carry stress. You want an arc-dodgy X-wing? Whoomp there it is.

edit- extraneous comma

Well.... with PS9 pilots on board, T-65s still have no way to outmaneuver things like Vader or Fel.

Okay, I'm struggling to say this without being snide, but why is the entire crowd clamoring for another X-wing fix forgetting BB-8? You want a maneuver option? You got it. You need durability? Hello there, integrated astromech.

Nobodies forgotten BB-8. Stop pretending we have. A pre-maneuver Barrel roll is nice. It's not game-changing, especially when it takes up your Astromech slot, and is unique.

Well.... with PS9 pilots on board, T-65s still have no way to outmaneuver things like Vader or Fel.

Okay, I'm struggling to say this without being snide, but why is the entire crowd clamoring for another X-wing fix forgetting BB-8? You want a maneuver option? You got it. You need durability? Hello there, integrated astromech.

Nobodies forgotten BB-8. Stop pretending we have. A pre-maneuver Barrel roll is nice. It's not game-changing, especially when it takes up your Astromech slot, and is unique.

It's confusing to me, though. You want maneuvering options and you want durability. BB-8+integrated astromech is both those things in an inexpensive package. It's not a huge boost, but the X-wing didn't need a huge, Tie Advanced-esque boost. Yes, BB-8 is unique, but how many High PS X-wings do you see in a list? I've never seen more than two, and one of them is pretty much always running R2-D2, so BB-8 seems to be exactly what the doctor ordered.

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

X-wings have almost all maneuvers except the hard 1 and very little red. What they lack is post-maneuver adjustments. These don't matter too much to the rookie anyway because you're moving first. Of course TLT Y is easier to fly! Flying X-wings will still require you to beat your opponent in the planning phase. The only difference with IA is that you are getting your points worth when you put X-wings in your squad.

Tourney results from before IA simply indicate the X-wing could use a bump. Let's see what regionals look like next year and then discuss tournament viability.

Well.... with PS9 pilots on board, T-65s still have no way to outmaneuver things like Vader or Fel.

I like your optimism, but without any further fixes - T-65s won't appear on tournament scene with Biggs ability as exception.

As for me, Proton A-wing is much better choise with ~ points tag.... basically everything is better with X-wing points range.

I disagree entirely with the idea that you can't outmaneuver PS9 ships like Fel or Vader. Porkins, Luke, Wes and Wedge are all either PS9+, or can boost themselves to that level through use of VI. That significantly hinders the ability of PS9 ships to actually arc-dodge, because they don't necessarily know where your pilot is going to move before they activate.

There are plenty of PS8 and lower ships who still can't reliably outmaneuver Fel or Vader because they can't anticipate where those pilots are actually going to move. The ability to reposition does not help them avoid this.

Well.... with PS9 pilots on board, T-65s still have no way to outmaneuver things like Vader or Fel.

I like your optimism, but without any further fixes - T-65s won't appear on tournament scene with Biggs ability as exception.

You should be aware that a list with Biggs and Wedge won a Regional tournament. Not played competitively, or almost beat some good lists, but won the whole **** thing against excellent players playing powerful lists. They're a little inefficient, but not crippled. Now they're not even inefficient.

Well.... with PS9 pilots on board, T-65s still have no way to outmaneuver things like Vader or Fel.

Okay, I'm struggling to say this without being snide, but why is the entire crowd clamoring for another X-wing fix forgetting BB-8? You want a maneuver option? You got it. You need durability? Hello there, integrated astromech.

Nobodies forgotten BB-8. Stop pretending we have. A pre-maneuver Barrel roll is nice. It's not game-changing, especially when it takes up your Astromech slot, and is unique.

not game changing ?

I'm assuming everyone knows about the bb-8 + PTL combo, but let's just recap what you're getting here

1.) pre-manuever roll + PTL action

*cannot be denied on block

*cannot be denied by obstacles

*lets you do silly things such as intentionally smacking into enemy ships (to deny their shots on you) with ease

2.) total of 3 actions (roll + focus + TL), rivaling the typical action efficiency of Jake (action, ptl action, free boost/roll) or Soontir (action, ptl action, stress)

less flexible ito distance gained (roll/boost) versus infinitely more flexible going around (or into) obstacles/opposing ships

3.) PTLing the X-wing's only other actions gives access to fully modified attacks from Wedge. That **** hurts

whether or not that's the silver bullet remains to be seen, but given where Wedge was previously BB-8 is game changing

dude's a monster now, so long as you don't run into a stupid PWT

low speed on green maneuvers may also make TLT a hassel, something the boost T-70 (esp poe) won't have to worry about as much

everyone else, though? Wedge's got game

BB8 is going to be straight up nuts on Wedge. Completely hellacious knife fighter. 2 points for the roller, 0 points for IA, and 1-3 points for one of a huge number of pretty great EPTs, and he's not even that expensive.

Well.... with PS9 pilots on board, T-65s still have no way to outmaneuver things like Vader or Fel.

I like your optimism, but without any further fixes - T-65s won't appear on tournament scene with Biggs ability as exception.

You should be aware that a list with Biggs and Wedge won a Regional tournament. Not played competitively, or almost beat some good lists, but won the whole **** thing against excellent players playing powerful lists. They're a little inefficient, but not crippled. Now they're not even inefficient.

And now that same list can swap out Wedge's Shield Upgrade for an Integrated Astromech. That buys 4 points, which can then be spent to on an extra hit point for Biggs, plus the astromech that limits you from taking more than 2 hits, along with another 3 points to add an Ion Pulse missile to the Bandit, to upgrade it to a Chardaan Prototype, or switch it to a Tala while giving your Stressbot an R2 Astromech.

As an added perk, both X-Wings gain protection against Proton Bombs and Advanced Homing Missiles.

but why is the entire crowd clamoring for another X-wing fix forgetting BB-8?

I can't speak for everyone, but for my group at least BB-8 is new trilogy, and will not be mixed with old trilogy.

Having said that, BB-8 is awesome, especially when combined with PTL and Engine Upgrade. Barrel roll, boost, then execute a green maneuver to clear the stress. Yikes.

but why is the entire crowd clamoring for another X-wing fix forgetting BB-8?

I can't speak for everyone, but for my group at least BB-8 is new trilogy, and will not be mixed with old trilogy.

Having said that, BB-8 is awesome, especially when combined with PTL and Engine Upgrade. Barrel roll, boost, then execute a green maneuver to clear the stress. Yikes.

And then get your normal action step for a focus!

Learning to fly the thing is going to take Echo-levels of don't-fly-into-rocks, but that's no bad thing, either.

I think it's not going to be that hard to fly BB8. You don't have to take the barrel roll, and it's easy to visualize because it happens before you move.

I hate all this move-before-you-move stuff, but it's so powerful it's really hard not to take advantage of it.