Yes it makes atros more appealing

But only on xwings

Hence, xwing buff and not astro buff

Jousting ship is a jouster.

Now it is better at jousting.

Who benefits most? Biggs and any pilot who wanted to joust. X-wings have the speed and now the durability to get into range 1 and burn some #### down. Yes, you have to fly them well and no, they don't have barrel roll training wheels but here is my biggest selling point in the current meta: Have you tried to duck into range 1 of a TLT y-wing with a b-wing?

Luke + R2D2

Sacrilege that it may feel to blow up a 4pt droid that would have regenerated shields for you, if you were about to die anyway why not see R2D2 explode to let Luke live through that one more attack?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ww34I00eCfw

and, honestly, we have to dispel the myth that the T-70 starts out any better than the vanilla X. If anything, the poor generic buggers are worse off than the rookie

How is that?

How can you say Generic T-65 pilots are better than Generic t-70s....?

The gap is HUGE and favors new X ones. T-70s are getting Shield Upgrade (4 points), Engine Upgrade (4 points) and 2 new maneuvers on Dial (? points) and new tech slot (1 point) and they are getting all of those for .... 3 points more than generic T-65 pilot? 9 points difference squeazed to 3 points.... wow!

Please explain your logic because for me it's an error.

Let me elaborate on what ficklegreen said above.

Cost (in squad points) and worth (benefits) of an upgrade are not always equal.

A shield upgrade (SU) costs 4 squad points but is very rarely actually worth that investment.

someone like Soontir Fel (and a select few others) can occasionally be seen sporting the SU and putting it to good use.

To guesstimate the worth of SU on someone like Fel we can make the following very unscientific assumptions.

Fel is facing 3 x 3 attack ships (seams like pretty average).

Fel arc dodges all ships every other round.

Fel is attacked by two ships every other round.

It takes on average four attacks before Fel suffers a hit (on account of Fel having three greens, autothrusters and focus, focus, evade).

In the above case the SU would prolong Fels life-expectancy by at least 4 rounds (seeing as by then less enemy ships should still be on the table).

On another ship, like the generic T-65 x-wing, the assumptions would naturally be very different. Again, very unscientific.. :

Generic X-wing is facing 3 x 3 attack ships.

X-wing is attacked by three ships every round (its among the worst in game at arc-dodging).

It takes on average one attack before X-wing suffers 1 hit.

In this case the SU would only rarely buy the X-wing one more round of fighting.

Yes, the above assumptions are probably badly faulted. But the example should be illustrative nonetheless. I would not be surprised if a SU on a generic X-wing would be worth less than a quarter of what its worth on Soontir Fel.

So, maybe 1 pt for the SU. The same goes for the engine upgrade (low worth on low ps pilots). Nothing for the tech slot. I'm not sure about the dial, maybe 0-1 pts.

This gives us a reasonable 24 points for the T-70. I would say it's in pretty much the same spot as the T-65 before we start adding on upgrades.

and, honestly, we have to dispel the myth that the T-70 starts out any better than the vanilla X. If anything, the poor generic buggers are worse off than the rookie

How is that?

How can you say Generic T-65 pilots are better than Generic t-70s....?

The gap is HUGE and favors new X ones. T-70s are getting Shield Upgrade (4 points), Engine Upgrade (4 points) and 2 new maneuvers on Dial (? points) and new tech slot (1 point) and they are getting all of those for .... 3 points more than generic T-65 pilot? 9 points difference squeazed to 3 points.... wow!

Please explain your logic because for me it's an error.

Let me elaborate on what ficklegreen said above.

Cost (in squad points) and worth (benefits) of an upgrade are not always equal.

A shield upgrade (SU) costs 4 squad points but is very rarely actually worth that investment.

someone like Soontir Fel (and a select few others) can occasionally be seen sporting the SU and putting it to good use.

To guesstimate the worth of SU on someone like Fel we can make the following very unscientific assumptions.

Fel is facing 3 x 3 attack ships (seams like pretty average).

Fel arc dodges all ships every other round.

Fel is attacked by two ships every other round.

It takes on average four attacks before Fel suffers a hit (on account of Fel having three greens, autothrusters and focus, focus, evade).

In the above case the SU would prolong Fels life-expectancy by at least 4 rounds (seeing as by then less enemy ships should still be on the table).

On another ship, like the generic T-65 x-wing, the assumptions would naturally be very different. Again, very unscientific.. :

Generic X-wing is facing 3 x 3 attack ships.

X-wing is attacked by three ships every round (its among the worst in game at arc-dodging).

It takes on average one attack before X-wing suffers 1 hit.

In this case the SU would only rarely buy the X-wing one more round of fighting.

Yes, the above assumptions are probably badly faulted. But the example should be illustrative nonetheless. I would not be surprised if a SU on a generic X-wing would be worth less than a quarter of what its worth on Soontir Fel.

So, maybe 1 pt for the SU. The same goes for the engine upgrade (low worth on low ps pilots). Nothing for the tech slot. I'm not sure about the dial, maybe 0-1 pts.

This gives us a reasonable 24 points for the T-70. I would say it's in pretty much the same spot as the T-65 before we start adding on upgrades.

There's another factor I we haven't really considered. Simply giving an additional hull/shield upgrade to a 21-pt ship is more beneficial than to a 24-pt since the base cost of the ship is lower. To get a sense for it, imagine if you gave this kind of upgrade to the vanilla 12-pt Tie Fighter -- you wouldn't have to spend nearly as many points to be able to 'use' this upgrade. In practice this probably isn't that valuable given our 100 pt squad limit, but it does make it slightly more valuable for a T-65.

I think the durability of an R7 IA Tarn/correctly played R7 IA generic X-Wing has superior durability to that of a B-Wing, as long as you don't face Accuracy Correctors lol.

I'm a big fan of an XXXX list that has 4 R7's in it. The fix is just a straight buff and a significant one at that for this list. When I lose shields I'd much rather be sitting on 3-4 health than 2-3.

Padre

IA should most definitely not be a title! This is only the first foray into the long awaited "Xwing" fix. I'm sure they are saving the title space for the obligatory Rogue squadron title. Honestly, this is a great buff for the Xwing and encourages players to make more use of atromechs, which, except for a notable few, were largely underused.

I'm really pumped to try this with Wedge and BB8, Jek and D8, Janson and A2, and more!

GR-75 was the first fix for the Xwings.... and still, after this release I can't remember any notable X-wing list.

If I can be honest, I think that X-wing along with HWK290 are two Rebel ships that are not appearing on tournament lists at all. Just because they are bad.

Engine upgrade is "nothing" .... ok, I have no further questions. This is one of best upgrades available and on T-70 its STOCK, not to mention that it also allows T-70s to take Autothrusters - and for their 2 points they are brilliant. Basically those 2 things are the most important stuff with "why T-65s can't even dream about being such effective as T-70s". EU is giving the possibility to outmaneuver enemy, no matter the pilot skill - and this is priceless. You can catch large ships and block them, you can go at Range 1 of you need it, you can move faster on battlefield... wow "that's nothing" doesn't fit here. Fix for TIE Advanced was something, fix for T-65 is .... basically it doesn't change anything.

If the T-65 cost = 20 points.... this would change a lot as for 100 points there could be a possibility to field 5 of them. But if on 100 points I can bring only 4 T-65 - I always pick T-70s.

What's more, I'm sure that in 100 point game 8x Z-95 (including 4x PS4 pilot) are going to win with 4x T-65s.

T-65s are great... but only in friendly games on a large scale, in Epic games - where loss of 1-2 ships is not hurting that much.

In competitive 100 points enviroment they are close to useless - the only pilot that can see some play is Biggs, but unfortunately it's not the ship but his skill that is making those points worth fielding. Big tournament just finished today in my country - 140 players, no single T-65.

Biggest winners are people who don't fly X Wings.

Stick with your tie advanced with all its free buffs.

The End.

Biggest winners are people who don't fly X Wings.

Stick with your tie advanced with all its free buffs.

The End.

Not the end. At all. Xwing fix has yet to be revealed, hold back your tears until then.

... I reiterate that this thread was for looking at the places the card would be excellent, not debating its value. Ah, well.

With that said: Modifications have a very different worth depending on the ship. That 4pt Shield upgrade is worth more on Soontir Fel than it is on a Decimator, right? So too Engine - Corran Horn or a large-based turret adore it, but you probably wouldn't spend it on a TIE Fighter. Indeed, on the TIE fighter, it's only 2pts more than Acadamey+Engine to get a PS1 Interceptor with a whole extra attack die and green hard turns - and you can be sure as heck those two features themselves are worth more than two points total. Heck, the Interceptor gets boost, green hard turns, and +1 attack for a mere +6 points!

... And yet, it's actually worse than the TIE Fighter you just 'buffed'.

While not as extreme as the above examples, the Xwing still definitely suffered on both these scales - not evasive enough to make the Shield Upgrade worth its full value, not expensive/elite enough to make Engine worth its price tag on much more than the occasional ace pilot. So no, the T-70 isn't automatically stronger for the better action bar and statline at +3pts; it'll have advantages elsewhere, but it's not 100% stronger by a long stretch.

Anyway!

To use the example above: Yes, Tarn dies quickly once you lose the R7 astromech, that key source of durability. But you wait to discard the R7 until he would have died anyway, that much-vaunted durability having finally run dry. And now he's around even longer than ever before. That is a straight boost to his power, ladies and gentlemen; he's now alive when he shouldn't be. Fel's Wrath remains jealous.

First list I've come up with is a varient of Biggs Walks tnt Dogs with a pair of B-Wings (plus Advanced Sensors), and a pair of Bandits alongside Biggs with Integrated Astromech and an R2.

I have a real feeling the biggest winners will be the X-Wings that need to be tanky more than anything else, so Tarn and Biggs with maybe Porkins just for fun. I think pilots like Wes and Wedge need a bit more looseness in their dials to get full advantage of their abilities, and so won't benefit to quite the same extent.

Don't get me wrong: the high PS guys can take this and become better! But they won't quite get up to top tier status.

Biggest winners are people who don't fly X Wings.

Stick with your tie advanced with all its free buffs.

The End.

Not the end. At all. Xwing fix has yet to be revealed, hold back your tears until then.

There was huge discussion on BOLS - and from what I know, there won't be any more fixes...

For the moment there are 2 core sets, both containing X-wings, there are two sets of X-wing ships and Rebel Transport - that was meant to 'fix' X-wings... and failed a bit in this.

I'm a huge fan of X-wing ship... but unfortunately they are 'competitive' only in movie.

Biggest winners are people who don't fly X Wings.

Stick with your tie advanced with all its free buffs.

The End.

Not the end. At all. Xwing fix has yet to be revealed, hold back your tears until then.

There was huge discussion on BOLS - and from what I know, there won't be any more fixes...

For the moment there are 2 core sets, both containing X-wings, there are two sets of X-wing ships and Rebel Transport - that was meant to 'fix' X-wings... and failed a bit in this.

I'm a huge fan of X-wing ship... but unfortunately they are 'competitive' only in movie.

What? Is there a source for this?

Biggest winners are people who don't fly X Wings.

Stick with your tie advanced with all its free buffs.

The End.

Not the end. At all. Xwing fix has yet to be revealed, hold back your tears until then.

There was huge discussion on BOLS - and from what I know, there won't be any more fixes...

For the moment there are 2 core sets, both containing X-wings, there are two sets of X-wing ships and Rebel Transport - that was meant to 'fix' X-wings... and failed a bit in this.

I'm a huge fan of X-wing ship... but unfortunately they are 'competitive' only in movie.

What? Is there a source for this?

Chris himself said an X-wing fix is coming, not referring to the Ep7 core. I'll take that as a source over BOLS any day.

Biggest winners are people who don't fly X Wings.

Stick with your tie advanced with all its free buffs.

The End.

Not the end. At all. Xwing fix has yet to be revealed, hold back your tears until then.

There was huge discussion on BOLS - and from what I know, there won't be any more fixes...

For the moment there are 2 core sets, both containing X-wings, there are two sets of X-wing ships and Rebel Transport - that was meant to 'fix' X-wings... and failed a bit in this.

I'm a huge fan of X-wing ship... but unfortunately they are 'competitive' only in movie.

What? Is there a source for this?

Chris himself said an X-wing fix is coming, not referring to the Ep7 core. I'll take that as a source over BOLS any day.

But might he've been referring to the Integrated Astromech?

Sure. It's certainly a fix. You've made a ship objectively better than it was with a 0pt upgrade. Is it the only fix? Who knows.

But I can't help but notice that at the moment someone who starts collecting X-wing with the new waves (nevermind the T-65 at all!) will never have enough Integrated Astromechs. One per blister is really stingy... unless an Aces pack is coming. And they've mentioned generic E-wings could do with a little love, too. X-wing/E-wing aces pack, anyone? With 2-3 Integrated Astromechs and as many new Titles for good measure? I'll take it.

And in the meantime, I'll try to see if the released buff helps anyone out enough to make 'em worthwhile. Hence this thread.

I think that this card is terrible for T-65s... Droids are advantage of Xwing, losing them is a disadvantage.... and the worse thing is --> It's a MODIFICATION not a TITLE... this is also ultra terrible. Just look how powerful fix was released for TIE Advanced - when you compare those 2 cards, Integrated Astromech is useless. Most of T-65 pilots are relying on droids. This card is taking away posibility to mount Modification and you are trading one hit for ... very good Droid.

And on T-70s Autothrusters are far better choice.

So.... so sad, but this card is terrible for T-65s and they are still close to unplayable in terms of 'competitive' lists.

I'm sure this has already been explained to you, but you don't burn your droid on the first hit. You save it either for your LAST hit (in which case your droid was going to be dead anyway. And incidentally, so was the rest of the ship) or you use it to cancel a crucial critical hit at an opportune moment.

The only time you are trading a hit for a droid is when you find yourself in a situation where you would otherwise be destroyed. Living without a droid beats getting killed every day of the week.

Engine upgrade is "nothing" .... ok, I have no further questions. This is one of best upgrades available and on T-70 its STOCK, not to mention that it also allows T-70s to take Autothrusters - and for their 2 points they are brilliant. Basically those 2 things are the most important stuff with "why T-65s can't even dream about being such effective as T-70s". EU is giving the possibility to outmaneuver enemy, no matter the pilot skill - and this is priceless. You can catch large ships and block them, you can go at Range 1 of you need it, you can move faster on battlefield... wow "that's nothing" doesn't fit here. Fix for TIE Advanced was something, fix for T-65 is .... basically it doesn't change anything.

If the T-65 cost = 20 points.... this would change a lot as for 100 points there could be a possibility to field 5 of them. But if on 100 points I can bring only 4 T-65 - I always pick T-70s.

What's more, I'm sure that in 100 point game 8x Z-95 (including 4x PS4 pilot) are going to win with 4x T-65s.

2) Boost becomes less valuable as your PS gets lower. Yeah, ok, it'll get you the odd block you might otherwise have missed, but generally Barrel Roll is better for that because it gives you finer control about where you end up. I'd always rather have Boost than not but, you know. Most of the time you're better off just using Focus or Target Lock. You'd better make that Boost (and swanky new dial) work for you on the T-70s because in terms of raw stats they're less efficient than their older brother.

3) The reason the TIE-Advanced got a bigger, more dramatic buff was that the TIE-Advanced was more broken than the X-Wing. For all that it apparently "doesn't change anything", the maths say that Integrated Astromech makes the T-65 more efficient in a joust than the equivalent generic B-Wing. It's now a matter of debate and personal taste whether you use the B, the T-65 or the T-70 as your 3-red-dice filler ship. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses. If the T-65 had gotten an ATC-style "whoops our bad" fix, you'd basically kill the B-Wing and generic T-70 stone dead.

4) Just comparing spam lists and declaring one ship better because it'd win that matchup tells you nothing. Yes, Zs are one of the most efficient ships in the game and are strong en masse against ships with relatively low agility. You pay a premium to get that third red dice, because the X-Wing and the Z-95 aren't the only two ships in the game and there's a whole bunch of stuff that'll laugh off the Z's popgun offence. There's a reason BBBBZ is A Thing while ZZZZZZZZ generally isn't.

Engine upgrade is "nothing" .... ok, I have no further questions. This is one of best upgrades available and on T-70 its STOCK, not to mention that it also allows T-70s to take Autothrusters - and for their 2 points they are brilliant. Basically those 2 things are the most important stuff with "why T-65s can't even dream about being such effective as T-70s". EU is giving the possibility to outmaneuver enemy, no matter the pilot skill - and this is priceless. You can catch large ships and block them, you can go at Range 1 of you need it, you can move faster on battlefield... wow "that's nothing" doesn't fit here. Fix for TIE Advanced was something, fix for T-65 is .... basically it doesn't change anything.

If the T-65 cost = 20 points.... this would change a lot as for 100 points there could be a possibility to field 5 of them. But if on 100 points I can bring only 4 T-65 - I always pick T-70s.

What's more, I'm sure that in 100 point game 8x Z-95 (including 4x PS4 pilot) are going to win with 4x T-65s.

1) Autothrusters become less valuable as the number of green dice you roll goes down. Not saying they're not worth 2 points, just pointing out they're less likely to proc on a T-70 than on a Stealth Device Soonts. And that's the point - they're not free. Put 'em on a Blue Rookie and suddenly you can't run four T-70s. Or Integrated Astromech.

2) Boost becomes less valuable as your PS gets lower. Yeah, ok, it'll get you the odd block you might otherwise have missed, but generally Barrel Roll is better for that because it gives you finer control about where you end up. I'd always rather have Boost than not but, you know. Most of the time you're better off just using Focus or Target Lock. You'd better make that Boost (and swanky new dial) work for you on the T-70s because in terms of raw stats they're less efficient than their older brother.

3) The reason the TIE-Advanced got a bigger, more dramatic buff was that the TIE-Advanced was more broken than the X-Wing. For all that it apparently "doesn't change anything", the maths say that Integrated Astromech makes the T-65 more efficient in a joust than the equivalent generic B-Wing. It's now a matter of debate and personal taste whether you use the B, the T-65 or the T-70 as your 3-red-dice filler ship. Each has its own strengths and weaknesses. If the T-65 had gotten an ATC-style "whoops our bad" fix, you'd basically kill the B-Wing and generic T-70 stone dead.

4) Just comparing spam lists and declaring one ship better because it'd win that matchup tells you nothing. Yes, Zs are one of the most efficient ships in the game and are strong en masse against ships with relatively low agility. You pay a premium to get that third red dice, because the X-Wing and the Z-95 aren't the only two ships in the game and there's a whole bunch of stuff that'll laugh off the Z's popgun offence. There's a reason BBBBZ is A Thing while ZZZZZZZZ generally isn't.

Just out of interest regarding #2 (Which I agree with, for what it's worth), where has the math for the adjusted jousting values been done? I hadn't noticed a MajorJuggler post anywhere, but I might have simply missed it...

There's a reason BBBBZ is A Thing while ZZZZZZZZ generally isn't.

You ok? Looks like you fell asleep there

8x Z don't synergise very well, and the lack of repositioning ability means that it's easier to get snarled up.

This is the main difference between it and 8x TIEs, really. 7x TIEs, of course, have Howlrunner. If Ethan A'baht flew a Z95, you can be sure that 7Z would be a thing.

There is just one bad thing with Zs - their poor firepower 2. The only Z I'm fielding is the Blount with ION rocket and Deadeye - solid 20 ponits (hull upgrade on him is not bad either). If I can be honest, A-wings are working much better for me, for 20 points you can field agile and fast (fastest in Rebels) ships, with 3 green dice, boost, one of best dials in game and armed with proton rockets - that are deadly. Those are best fillers in Rebels. I rate them much higher than any T-65 for similar cost.

And unfortunately I can't agree that Autothrusters are bad on low PS guys - they are are brilliant. 2 green dice is enough to make them work. You are getting ~1 evade each 2 dice (including Focus) so the one extra evade vs turrets/Range 3 is great - and it's only 2 points. Sharp maneuver + boost is also great and T-70s are coming with this one, same as A-Wings, both, are great thanks to this action on their bar.

I still can't understand the logical process leading to claim that T-70 with Autothrusters, R2, Integrated Astromech is ... worse than T-65 with R2 and Integrated Astromech. T-70 fly in different league - even in pure statline/maneuver/action bar comparison.

Guys, let's compare some points - those ships are considered as fillers, some extra ships that are making use of remaining points. As for now we can field:

• Blue Squadron Novice, R2, Int. Astro. for 25 pts
• Rookie with R2, Int. Astro. for 22 points
• Gold Squadron TLT, R2 for 25 points (or 24 without mech)
• Lieutenant Blount, Deadeye, Ion rockets, Hull Upgrade for 24 (or 21 without Hull) - it's a PS6 pilot
• A-wing with Protons for 20/22 if Autothrustering
• Green Squadron with Thrusters, Protons, Crack Shoot and Lightning Reflexes (or Veteran) for just 26 points! Maybe not so cheap but wow, it's really good pilot!
• Blue Squadron classics for 22 or 25 with Advanced Sensors.

I think that T-65 looks not as attractive as other possibilities.

It's no more unplayable option, but other ships simply get access to such cool stuff, I can't get over T-65 price tag.

I'm a huge fan of T-65, I love how they look - I remember how stunning they were in cinema when I had a pleasure to see first release of Return of the Jedi in cinema - back in old days when I was a kid, so if you hear anything about any further fixes - please share it guys. From what I know - everything that was meant to be released - is already available.

Bravo, FFG! You found a way to buff the generic T-65 without overpowering the T-70. They have some extremely smart minds over there.

There are three options:

1. You have a T-70. You can boost, so you take Autothrusters, bypassing this upgrade. You already have an extra shield, so you're good.

2. You have a High PS T-65. You now have to choose between this turning your high cost droid (R2D2, R5-P9, R3-A2) into an extra shield, OR choosing Engine Upgrade. Those are two distinct choices that have no obvious winner.

3. You have a Low PS T-65. You choose this and a low cost droid (R2, R5) and gain an extra shield for 1 point. Autoinclude.

Ingenious, I tell you, ingenious.

It is a clever buff, and it's relatively effective...

...but it wasn't the buff I was hoping for. If this is the only T65 fix (I'm not saying it is) then I feel a little disappointed. Rebel X-wing pilots should be working with their astromechs, going down in flames together, not blowing them out of the ship when they're in trouble.

Bravo, FFG! You found a way to buff the generic T-65 without overpowering the T-70. They have some extremely smart minds over there.

There are three options:

1. You have a T-70. You can boost, so you take Autothrusters, bypassing this upgrade. You already have an extra shield, so you're good.

2. You have a High PS T-65. You now have to choose between this turning your high cost droid (R2D2, R5-P9, R3-A2) into an extra shield, OR choosing Engine Upgrade. Those are two distinct choices that have no obvious winner.

3. You have a Low PS T-65. You choose this and a low cost droid (R2, R5) and gain an extra shield for 1 point. Autoinclude.

Ingenious, I tell you, ingenious.

It is a clever buff, and it's relatively effective...

...but it wasn't the buff I was hoping for. If this is the only T65 fix (I'm not saying it is) then I feel a little disappointed. Rebel X-wing pilots should be working with their astromechs, going down in flames together, not blowing them out of the ship when they're in trouble.

There's nothing to suggest they're ejected from the ship or otherwise destroyed, just like using Cool Hand doesn't cause a brain aneurysm. If you want, the Astromech climbs out of its slot and is too busy holding onto that broken off S-Foil than to fine tune the inertial dampeners or whatever else it is they do. Shields regenerate in the games, novels and movies but it's not seen in the timeframe of the game.

For what it's worth, in the films, when someone says, "_____ shields are down!" it's... Pretty final. Shields do not come back easily.

I actually really like that X-Wing reflects this. Hell even a majority of the games reflect this- oddly enough, few better than Rogue Squadron, in which your shields really just do not come back.