I think that the match-up between heavy Bomber lists and All-Ship lists are being heavily overstated in regards to the advantage the Bomber list has.

The Bomber list is trading activations and staying power for possibly higher damage output and some deployment advantage. It is very much a trade off.

The "if you just played better players" fallacy is coming through at bit strong on this thread.

I can't see how a list with a good bomber complement is NOT a good strat.

You're trading what, a concentrate fire (+1 Die) for a squadron command which could activate 4 squadrons on a VSD with Hanger Bay. If that's a Rhymer ball that's 4 black dice at medium range. If it's 4 B-Wings that's 4 Black 4 blue Dice at close range.

The squadron command is worth a lot more than a concetrate fire command in the ammount of dice you can throw out at a ship. With that many dice being thrown out BEFORE your ship attacks, you can significally weaken their defenses, softening them up for a big hit with your ship and it's buffs. Also, chances are that ship will save their brace and tokens for the ship and not against the 1-2 damage rolls of each of those activated bombers.

As for the "if you just played better players" fallacy, there are a lot of examples on this forum (not this thread) of people missusing and misunderstanding how the basic rules of squadrons work. One example, people thinking squadron commands only work at distance 1, when it's actually medium range. The ammount of people who think squadrons flat out are useless also drives home the point to me. I used to think that squadrons were wasted points, then I played against people who actually used them very well and that changed my mind.

Rebels have the best/most versatile fighters. Fighters only make sense if you're using squadron commands. Up until the new MC80, a squadron command wasn't a very effective/efficient use of commands. With the ability to activate 6 squadrons with expanded hangar bays (compared to 3 or so from previous options, squadron commands are wayyy more useful.

Squadron commands scale in power with more powerful ships. Concentrate Fire commands do not ( in fact, they are arguably more powerful on smaller ships - ie an extra die when shooting 6 dice is a 17% increase. For a cr90, its a 33% to 50% increase).

Up until now, no one has been able to really utilize squadrons to their full potential. Finally we'll have the ability to make them viable without using multiple commands per turn.

True though looking at some army builders it seems like it isnt too expensive to chuck some in.

Could 2 each of a wings and y wings do decently?

Honestly, the fighter game is significantly more complex than most people give it credit for.

This is understandable, as most people aren't really digging into it to any significant degree.

Rebels have the best/most versatile fighters. Fighters only make sense if you're using squadron commands. Up until the new MC80, a squadron command wasn't a very effective/efficient use of commands. With the ability to activate 6 squadrons with expanded hangar bays (compared to 3 or so from previous options, squadron commands are wayyy more useful.

I have to disagree.

Rebel fighter squadrons are INDIVIDUALLY more powerful than Imperial, and can function in smaller groups, while also being more expensive.

That said, I've wiped a huge number of points off the board by hitting even the tankiest rebel bombers with Howlrunner+Interceptor+Flight Controllers combos before they could even get a shot off.

Imperial fighters have synergy, which is one of the reasons I cannot fathom a use for the TIE Advanced. A TIE without swarm is scarcely a TIE at all.

And really, if your opponent is running no squadrons at all and you have Rhymer, you don't really need to use squadron commands at all, just fly your speed 4 bombers anywhere near where you expect the enemy ship to go and start plinking down his shields.

I think its not stars wars without fighters. I also think they need more ways to be able to move and fire, the whole move OR fire thing is just not how fighters work when their out in combat. and reb fighters need to be even more independent from command ships.

Now, I have limited play experience so far, but it does seem to me that the squadrons are slightly underpowered. I think the best approach would have been for the bombers to have greater anti-ship damage (i.e. more dice). This in turn would increase the need for a stronger fighter presence for opposing players, which would then increase the need for better escorts on the bombers' side. Thinking back to the old TIE Fighter/X-Wing games you had an entire squadron of torpedo-equipped ships on your side you could easily take down capital ships unopposed.

Honestly, the fighter game is significantly more complex than most people give it credit for.

This is understandable, as most people aren't really digging into it to any significant degree.

Rebels have the best/most versatile fighters. Fighters only make sense if you're using squadron commands. Up until the new MC80, a squadron command wasn't a very effective/efficient use of commands. With the ability to activate 6 squadrons with expanded hangar bays (compared to 3 or so from previous options, squadron commands are wayyy more useful.

I have to disagree.

Rebel fighter squadrons are INDIVIDUALLY more powerful than Imperial, and can function in smaller groups, while also being more expensive.

That said, I've wiped a huge number of points off the board by hitting even the tankiest rebel bombers with Howlrunner+Interceptor+Flight Controllers combos before they could even get a shot off.

Imperial fighters have synergy, which is one of the reasons I cannot fathom a use for the TIE Advanced. A TIE without swarm is scarcely a TIE at all.

And really, if your opponent is running no squadrons at all and you have Rhymer, you don't really need to use squadron commands at all, just fly your speed 4 bombers anywhere near where you expect the enemy ship to go and start plinking down his shields.

The issue with all those TiE Fighter, Interceptors, and the various named Squadrons of each is that they are not a terribly threatening use of points when it comes to killing enemy Ships, which is the way in which you most commonly score points and win the game overall. At least the generic TiE Advanced is rolling a black die, Vader also having a pseudo-Bomber ability.

Sinking too many points into Anti-Squadron options will leave you at a non-marginal disadvantage when not confronted with your preferred match-up. I feel more so then any such disadvantage a Bomber-Heavy or No Squadron list would enjoy in any of thier match-ups.

The name of the game is destroying Ships, spending too many points not towards that goal, is in my view not advisable. Which is why Rhymer is so mandatory even if he is the only Bomber, as at least he ups the usage of the TIEs or Interceptors. Fel, Mauler, and Howlrunner all suffer in that they are even more inefficient for thier points in regards to dealing Damage with Ships. Only Dutch on the Rebels side doesn't gain some sort of advantage in that arena, and he's already a black dice Bomber anyway.

Honestly, the fighter game is significantly more complex than most people give it credit for.

This is understandable, as most people aren't really digging into it to any significant degree.

Rebels have the best/most versatile fighters. Fighters only make sense if you're using squadron commands. Up until the new MC80, a squadron command wasn't a very effective/efficient use of commands. With the ability to activate 6 squadrons with expanded hangar bays (compared to 3 or so from previous options, squadron commands are wayyy more useful.

I have to disagree.

Rebel fighter squadrons are INDIVIDUALLY more powerful than Imperial, and can function in smaller groups, while also being more expensive.

That said, I've wiped a huge number of points off the board by hitting even the tankiest rebel bombers with Howlrunner+Interceptor+Flight Controllers combos before they could even get a shot off.

Imperial fighters have synergy, which is one of the reasons I cannot fathom a use for the TIE Advanced. A TIE without swarm is scarcely a TIE at all.

And really, if your opponent is running no squadrons at all and you have Rhymer, you don't really need to use squadron commands at all, just fly your speed 4 bombers anywhere near where you expect the enemy ship to go and start plinking down his shields.

I have a hard time usuing anything but tie advanced save the named pilots because they are so useful. Resonible anti-ship and and anti-squad they won't get 1 shot and are not susceptible to aa from ships unlike regular ties and also I would say they have more synergy since they pair well with rhymer and...

Fel+advanced=dead things

Honestly, the fighter game is significantly more complex than most people give it credit for.

This is understandable, as most people aren't really digging into it to any significant degree.

Rebels have the best/most versatile fighters. Fighters only make sense if you're using squadron commands. Up until the new MC80, a squadron command wasn't a very effective/efficient use of commands. With the ability to activate 6 squadrons with expanded hangar bays (compared to 3 or so from previous options, squadron commands are wayyy more useful.

I have to disagree.

Rebel fighter squadrons are INDIVIDUALLY more powerful than Imperial, and can function in smaller groups, while also being more expensive.

That said, I've wiped a huge number of points off the board by hitting even the tankiest rebel bombers with Howlrunner+Interceptor+Flight Controllers combos before they could even get a shot off.

Imperial fighters have synergy, which is one of the reasons I cannot fathom a use for the TIE Advanced. A TIE without swarm is scarcely a TIE at all.

And really, if your opponent is running no squadrons at all and you have Rhymer, you don't really need to use squadron commands at all, just fly your speed 4 bombers anywhere near where you expect the enemy ship to go and start plinking down his shields.

I have a hard time usuing anything but tie advanced save the named pilots because they are so useful. Resonible anti-ship and and anti-squad they won't get 1 shot and are not susceptible to aa from ships unlike regular ties and also I would say they have more synergy since they pair well with rhymer and...

Fel+advanced=dead things

This is funny, because I can never justify the expense of Advanced vs the loss of swarm the squadron takes.

I run TIE fighters and TIE interceptors almost exclusively with Howlrunner and I absolutely obliterate rebel squadrons.

I find I can avoid anti-squadron fire from ships on TIEs by giving my opponent more important targets.

Keep your squadrons in the same arc as your ships and they will never, ever be fired upon over a threatening star destroyer.

This is funny, because I can never justify the expense of Advanced vs the loss of swarm the squadron takes.

I run TIE fighters and TIE interceptors almost exclusively with Howlrunner and I absolutely obliterate rebel squadrons.

That's amazing for you. I find though that things are a two-tiered approach, and a backup of an Advanced + Fel is great for tying down and killing those bomber squadrons that didn't commit to the fighter furball... Until I can bring the Fighters to finish it all off.

This is funny, because I can never justify the expense of Advanced vs the loss of swarm the squadron takes.

I run TIE fighters and TIE interceptors almost exclusively with Howlrunner and I absolutely obliterate rebel squadrons.

That's amazing for you. I find though that things are a two-tiered approach, and a backup of an Advanced + Fel is great for tying down and killing those bomber squadrons that didn't commit to the fighter furball... Until I can bring the Fighters to finish it all off.

I'm not saying Fel + Adv isn't a great combo, it is.

It's also a very expensive combo for not THAT much damage, spread across only two squadrons.

30 pts in two squadrons that will get off maybe 3 free 1 damage plinks vs 24 pts in 3 TIE fighter squadrons putting out three standard dice each attack? Take those six points and buy Flight Controllers, now your TIEs are tackling with a four die attack off a squadron command. (Five with Howlrunner backing them up. She doesn't even need to engage to give them this benefit.)

I'd rather take the TIEs, back them up with Howlrunner for an extra die, and time their tackle to maximize the damage they put out. Yeah, you lose Soontir's defense tokens, but I prefer to bank on a strategy of limiting their chances to strike back anyway.

TIEs getting mobbed the turn after they attack? Stop running them right into the middle. Only engage the squadrons you intend to utterly destroy this turn, make the enemy engage YOU with their movement or use a squadron command to respond.

TIE fighters are fast. Once you're within range 2 of a rebel squadron, they aren't going to escape from you.

Now having said all that, once we hit the 400 pt limit, I'll probably find more room for Fel and maybe an Advanced or two as well, but in my experience at low points, fighters and interceptors are giving me more bang for my buck.

Other side to the coin is that the Adv+Fel combo is passive. It doesn't need a Squadron Command to work, for what its worth. Yes, Flight Controllers would be a nice addition, but perhaps I want to take a few fighters to pin downt he worst of the enemy, and then not worry about squadron commands...

They're all legitimate strategies.

Other side to the coin is that the Adv+Fel combo is passive. It doesn't need a Squadron Command to work, for what its worth. Yes, Flight Controllers would be a nice addition, but perhaps I want to take a few fighters to pin downt he worst of the enemy, and then not worry about squadron commands...

They're all legitimate strategies.

Unquestionably.

This is why I say the fighter game is more nuanced than most people realize. There are as many ways to play it as there are players.

Me? I favor an aggressive, high risk/high reward strategy that leaves me with large numbers of squadrons and still enough pts for decent ship upgrades.

Others like more guaranteed effects.

Both work.

The issue with all those TiE Fighter, Interceptors, and the various named Squadrons of each is that they are not a terribly threatening use of points when it comes to killing enemy Ships, which is the way in which you most commonly score points and win the game overall. At least the generic TiE Advanced is rolling a black die, Vader also having a pseudo-Bomber ability.

Sinking too many points into Anti-Squadron options will leave you at a non-marginal disadvantage when not confronted with your preferred match-up. I feel more so then any such disadvantage a Bomber-Heavy or No Squadron list would enjoy in any of thier match-ups.

The name of the game is destroying Ships, spending too many points not towards that goal, is in my view not advisable. Which is why Rhymer is so mandatory even if he is the only Bomber, as at least he ups the usage of the TIEs or Interceptors. Fel, Mauler, and Howlrunner all suffer in that they are even more inefficient for thier points in regards to dealing Damage with Ships. Only Dutch on the Rebels side doesn't gain some sort of advantage in that arena, and he's already a black dice Bomber anyway.

See, I don't think you're looking at this the right way. You are looking the cost of fighters and saying to yourself, "They can't punch through to the hull with only a black die. If you're only thinking of doing hull damage with every attack then yea, it looks like a waste of points.

Thing is, that's not the right way to look at it. Simple build that requires no skill to use: Rhymer, Tie Bomber, Tie Advanced x2

All of those shoot black dice (Crits don't count on the Advanced, but it's still a 75% of 1 damage) at medium range with Rhymer. That's 4 damage from a squadron activation.

You could hav used a concentrate fire command to give you what, 1 blue die?

So your VSD activates your Rhymer ball does 1 damage per roll for a total of 4 damage against an Assault Frigate. Is it going to spend a redirect against 1 damage? No. Can't evade (unless MM - then they burn it on 1 damage instead of your actual Capital Ship's attack) Basically you blow down a whole section of the ships shields with no resistance, and if they use their defense tokens, even better. Both senarios set up your Capital Ships attack to do more damage either via having to eat through less sheilds or not dealing with tokens or forcing them to burn tokens meaning it will be even easier next round.

Also, the concentrate fire command could essential be eaten up by a defense token, wherease the squadron command cannot and if even one of the attacks is blocked using the token, it just means your fist full of dice from your Capital Ship(s) won't have to worry about it. Win/Win.

Synergy. Don't look at each step as a stand alone section that has no impact on the rest of your turn and future turns.

The issue with all those TiE Fighter, Interceptors, and the various named Squadrons of each is that they are not a terribly threatening use of points when it comes to killing enemy Ships, which is the way in which you most commonly score points and win the game overall. At least the generic TiE Advanced is rolling a black die, Vader also having a pseudo-Bomber ability.

Sinking too many points into Anti-Squadron options will leave you at a non-marginal disadvantage when not confronted with your preferred match-up. I feel more so then any such disadvantage a Bomber-Heavy or No Squadron list would enjoy in any of thier match-ups.The name of the game is destroying Ships, spending too many points not towards that goal, is in my view not advisable. Which is why Rhymer is so mandatory even if he is the only Bomber, as at least he ups the usage of the TIEs or Interceptors. Fel, Mauler, and Howlrunner all suffer in that they are even more inefficient for thier points in regards to dealing Damage with Ships. Only Dutch on the Rebels side doesn't gain some sort of advantage in that arena, and he's already a black dice Bomber anyway.

See, I don't think you're looking at this the right way. You are looking the cost of fighters and saying to yourself, "They can't punch through to the hull with only a black die. If you're only thinking of doing hull damage with every attack then yea, it looks like a waste of points.

Thing is, that's not the right way to look at it. Simple build that requires no skill to use: Rhymer, Tie Bomber, Tie Advanced x2

All of those shoot black dice (Crits don't count on the Advanced, but it's still a 75% of 1 damage) at medium range with Rhymer. That's 4 damage from a squadron activation.

You could hav used a concentrate fire command to give you what, 1 blue die?

So your VSD activates your Rhymer ball does 1 damage per roll for a total of 4 damage against an Assault Frigate. Is it going to spend a redirect against 1 damage? No. Can't evade (unless MM - then they burn it on 1 damage instead of your actual Capital Ship's attack) Basically you blow down a whole section of the ships shields with no resistance, and if they use their defense tokens, even better. Both senarios set up your Capital Ships attack to do more damage either via having to eat through less sheilds or not dealing with tokens or forcing them to burn tokens meaning it will be even easier next round.

Also, the concentrate fire command could essential be eaten up by a defense token, wherease the squadron command cannot and if even one of the attacks is blocked using the token, it just means your fist full of dice from your Capital Ship(s) won't have to worry about it. Win/Win.

Synergy. Don't look at each step as a stand alone section that has no impact on the rest of your turn and future turns.

So if you spend 50ish points on interceptors howl and flight controller but you opponent doesn't bring squads they are kinda wasted points

For anti-fighter work I prefer plain TIEs + Howlrunner. 5 TIEs + Howlrunner = 40 + 16 = 56 pts.

This is funny, because I can never justify the expense of Advanced vs the loss of swarm the squadron takes.

I run TIE fighters and TIE interceptors almost exclusively with Howlrunner and I absolutely obliterate rebel squadrons.

That's amazing for you. I find though that things are a two-tiered approach, and a backup of an Advanced + Fel is great for tying down and killing those bomber squadrons that didn't commit to the fighter furball... Until I can bring the Fighters to finish it all off.

I'm not saying Fel + Adv isn't a great combo, it is.

It's also a very expensive combo for not THAT much damage, spread across only two squadrons.

30 pts in two squadrons that will get off maybe 3 free 1 damage plinks vs 24 pts in 3 TIE fighter squadrons putting out three standard dice each attack? Take those six points and buy Flight Controllers, now your TIEs are tackling with a four die attack off a squadron command. (Five with Howlrunner backing them up. She doesn't even need to engage to give them this benefit.)

.....

I use my squadrons in a different way. I have been running with Rhymer, 2x bombers, vader, reg advance, fel, with some decent success.

Vader, reg advance, and fel have 1 purpose, and 1 purpose only. To tie up enemy fighters to allow my bombers to do their work. If they kill the enemy, even better, that means more damage I can pump out on ships. If they don't kill them, I will at least have tied up the enemy fighters for at least 2-3 turns (excluding chirpy and tycho shenanagins)

For anti-fighter work I prefer plain TIEs + Howlrunner. 5 TIEs + Howlrunner = 40 + 16 = 56 pts.

I always run fel+advanced(x2)+mithel

18+24+15=57

So similar point sink

So as silly as this sounds I am not as interested in the fighters as I am the rebel cruisers and frigates.

If I want fighters I would just play xwing lol.

Dont get me wrong I love the Ywing (though not xwings sadly)

So anyways how important are the smallers ships or can i buy just the medium and larger ships and be just fine.

Think of fighter squadrons as just weapon upgrades you equip to a ship.

When you rig a ship up with titles that support squadrons, such as Gallant Haven, and crewed with Flight Controllers, you are basically replacing one big shot with the ability to do many small shots.

If you ever played Starcraft, the Protoss could build these carrier ships that shot out many little fighters that did the attacks, while the carriers just moved them into range.

man, how I loved my protoss carriers..

I'd just like to point out that a tie fighter and a tie advanced actually have the same average damage against ships per point spent, and both do more than an X-wing, although without the ability to crit when shooting hull. A-wings do slightly more (~9%) than the ties.

Basically all of the named pilots have poor damage per cost, fitting in a little higher than a tie interceptor. They are mostly about having that firepower in a single squadron to maximize squadron command usage and squadron command buffs. The exception being Keyan Farlander. He sits between the Y-Wing and Tie bomber in terms of damage per point, but has very low durability, anti-squadron firepower (worse than a tie bomber ), and mobility by comparison. Obviously, he is also the king of using the aforementioned squadron command buffs.

Also the idea that using a squadron command is better than a concentrate fire command is a bit of a fallacy, as you also have to pay points for the bombers. It would be better to compare a ship using squadron commands on 4 Y-wings (40 points, 4 black dice) vs that ship using concentrate fire plus a CR-90b (39 points) using concentrate fire for a total of 7 extra blue dice, if the cr-90b gets both arcs firing. The CR-90b would also add an activation and 11 extra hull and shield to the list.

All that may be true, but when you have 4 attacks of 1, you have to either piss away defense tokens or just sit and take it. Whereas an arc from a CR90 can be braced in half or even negated via evade. You can't straight up evade a squad attack (from range 1/close range) without MM.

Also the idea that using a squadron command is better than a concentrate fire command is a bit of a fallacy, as you also have to pay points for the bombers. It would be better to compare a ship using squadron commands on 4 Y-wings (40 points, 4 black dice) vs that ship using concentrate fire plus a CR-90b (39 points) using concentrate fire for a total of 7 extra blue dice, if the cr-90b gets both arcs firing. The CR-90b would also add an activation and 11 extra hull and shield to the list.

I'm not quite sure where the 7 extra blue dice is coming from in this comparison. Optimal maneuvering of a CR-90b will net, at most, 5 extra blue dice from CF commands, once per round in rounds 2-6 (unless you don't have initiative in a fleet ambush game and your opponent rockets into medium range in the first activation of turn 1). If on the other hand the comparison is between the total dice from a CR-90 double-arc shot + CF vs. the black dice from 4 Y-wings, the difference would be 4 total dice (8 blue vs. 4 black), although the damage comparison is actually not quite so disparate (average of 6 damage from the CR-90b vs. 3 damage from the Y-wings, but both with a maximum damage output of 8). I'm sure that I'm probably missing the thrust of the example, so please correct me if I'm wrong. The CR-90 does add the extra activation and hull/shields, of course.

My confusion aside, the point raised here is definitely a valid one, as a squadron command in and of itself is worthless without squadrons to command. I would echo the point raised earlier here and elsewhere, about treating squadrons as upgrades/extensions of your ship, as I think that's a helpful way to think about the cost effectiveness of squadrons and squadron-focused upgrades (for those of us who value efficiency in our builds).

All that may be true, but when you have 4 attacks of 1, you have to either piss away defense tokens or just sit and take it. Whereas an arc from a CR90 can be braced in half or even negated via evade. You can't straight up evade a squad attack (from range 1/close range) without MM.

I'd agree with this as far as we're comparing the offensive value of a CF vs. Squadron command. I generally value CF commands the lowest out of the four (heresy, I know), because the raw dice and number of attacks from a squadron command usually translates into higher damage output overall (assuming, obviously, that the ship in question has available squadrons within command range).

On the flip-side, there is also an opportunity cost associated with spamming squadron commands. The top list at GenCon was built for maximum damage output, but stayed afloat by using almost exclusively defensive commands, repair and navigate. Spamming squadron commands with a dedicated carrier severely limits the options available for repairing (one token, topping out at 3 repair points for MC-80/AF-II + Redemption boost) or navigating (one token + Nav Team, for changing 1 speed or 1 yaw, or one token + Engine Techs, for changing speed once plus adding one speed 1 maneuver). The trade-off is (hopefully) more offensive firepower through the squadron attacks to destroy attacking enemy ships before the lack of repairs/maneuverability catches up to the carrier.

My Yavaris never leaves dock without her pair of B-wings, X-wing escort, and pair of A-wing interceptors. And my fleet never sails without Yavaris.

Squadrons may not get a consensus on being great, but I love them.

Honestly, the fighter game is significantly more complex than most people give it credit for.

This is understandable, as most people aren't really digging into it to any significant degree.

Rebels have the best/most versatile fighters. Fighters only make sense if you're using squadron commands. Up until the new MC80, a squadron command wasn't a very effective/efficient use of commands. With the ability to activate 6 squadrons with expanded hangar bays (compared to 3 or so from previous options, squadron commands are wayyy more useful.

I have to disagree.

Rebel fighter squadrons are INDIVIDUALLY more powerful than Imperial, and can function in smaller groups, while also being more expensive.

That said, I've wiped a huge number of points off the board by hitting even the tankiest rebel bombers with Howlrunner+Interceptor+Flight Controllers combos before they could even get a shot off.

Imperial fighters have synergy, which is one of the reasons I cannot fathom a use for the TIE Advanced. A TIE without swarm is scarcely a TIE at all.

And really, if your opponent is running no squadrons at all and you have Rhymer, you don't really need to use squadron commands at all, just fly your speed 4 bombers anywhere near where you expect the enemy ship to go and start plinking down his shields.

Interesting. My doctrine for imperial fighters is just the opposite. The only Tie fighter I ever run is Mauler Mithel. He is far too squishy without escorts. Bringing Tie fighters is a gamble. If the rebels bring squadrons, they are fine. If not, they are wasted points. Tie Advanced protect you bombers, protect Mauler Mithel and Soontir Fel, and are better against capital ships than Tie Fighters. Tie Fighters also use up valuable squadron command points.

I used a lot of fighters (and ship upgrades) when I first started playing and they were great. Then I stopped using them and maximised the number of ships I was taking. That was great. I've used b-wing bomber screens, multiple small groups of xwings, all acting individually to mitigate imperial fighter synergy, a-wings suicide teams to neuter Rhymer balls and elite pilot swarms. Everything I've talked about above has worked.

I'm not sure there is a particular 'best way' to build a list- this is one of the reasons the game is so compelling. I currently favour no upgrade ship heavy lists because I like using all the ships I've bought. Plus it looks cool!