That proposed e wing fix would be about as overpowered as it gets on corran. Imagine this. R2d2 r2 astro fcs vi. Strictly superior to the standard corran build that accompanies 58 dash but sitting pretty at 40 points, 2 cheaper than before.

That proposed e wing fix would be about as overpowered as it gets on corran. Imagine this. R2d2 r2 astro fcs vi. Strictly superior to the standard corran build that accompanies 58 dash but sitting pretty at 40 points, 2 cheaper than before.

losing boost at ps10 for a green 2 turn is not "strictly better"

You are not losing the boost as the 42 point corran does not for engine upgrade. Fcs r2 vi is standard when running with 58 dash.

ok, its better than corran when corran takes off some of his bells and wistles. Im not seeing a problem.

Normal Corran is fairly limited in his movement. If he wants to use R2, he has to bank. He can then boost or barrel, that doesn't really help him arc-dodge and it's easy to maintain firing arcs on him.

The fix you suggest would give him access to both hard 2s and 1-banks while keeping the regen. It's a fairly big boost to a ship that doesn't need it.

Why are we banging on about e-wings? Did we realise that the X-wing fix was actually awesome and move in to winging about something else?

Why are we banging on about e-wings? Did we realise that the X-wing fix was actually awesome and move in to winging about something else?

Yes. Hey its what we do

To be honest, yes i think the Defender is stillworse off than the T-65 after both their fixes hit. But that doesn't excuse this half hearted attempts to bring them up to par with other ships. They BOTH deserve better

Y'know I'd actually forgotten that the Defender even received its 'fix' - that's how meh it was!

I've tried rex ptl 'fixed' a few times, and it was in no way close to competing with Whisper for that 40-42pt slot. Still a strictly epic-only ship for me - I appreciate those few brave souls who are skilled enough to have turned their dual defender lists into viable options, but that doesn't translate into the ship being viable per se. I'd be very interested to hear Biophysical's take on the ship in the new tlt meta...

I am still unsure why ptl would be good on defender. Are the kturns now green?

To be honest, yes i think the Defender is stillworse off than the T-65 after both their fixes hit. But that doesn't excuse this half hearted attempts to bring them up to par with other ships. They BOTH deserve better

Y'know I'd actually forgotten that the Defender even received its 'fix' - that's how meh it was!

I've tried rex ptl 'fixed' a few times, and it was in no way close to competing with Whisper for that 40-42pt slot. Still a strictly epic-only ship for me - I appreciate those few brave souls who are skilled enough to have turned their dual defender lists into viable options, but that doesn't translate into the ship being viable per se. I'd be very interested to hear Biophysical's take on the ship in the new tlt meta...

I am still unsure why ptl would be good on defender. Are the kturns now green?

Rexlar really wants some way to modify dice and still have a focus to activate his skill. Not too many ways for synergy challenged imps to make that happen.

That proposed e wing fix would be about as overpowered as it gets on corran. Imagine this. R2d2 r2 astro fcs vi. Strictly superior to the standard corran build that accompanies 58 dash but sitting pretty at 40 points, 2 cheaper than before.

That proposed e wing fix would be about as overpowered as it gets on corran. Imagine this. R2d2 r2 astro fcs vi. Strictly superior to the standard corran build that accompanies 58 dash but sitting pretty at 40 points, 2 cheaper than before.

losing boost at ps10 for a green 2 turn is not "strictly better"

You are not losing the boost as the 42 point corran does not for engine upgrade. Fcs r2 vi is standard when running with 58 dash.

ok, its better than corran when corran takes off some of his bells and wistles. Im not seeing a problem.

Normal Corran is fairly limited in his movement. If he wants to use R2, he has to bank. He can then boost or barrel, that doesn't really help him arc-dodge and it's easy to maintain firing arcs on him.

The fix you suggest would give him access to both hard 2s and 1-banks while keeping the regen. It's a fairly big boost to a ship that doesn't need it.

And somehow bank+boostbank is worse than hardturn and no boost?

That proposed e wing fix would be about as overpowered as it gets on corran. Imagine this. R2d2 r2 astro fcs vi. Strictly superior to the standard corran build that accompanies 58 dash but sitting pretty at 40 points, 2 cheaper than before.

That proposed e wing fix would be about as overpowered as it gets on corran. Imagine this. R2d2 r2 astro fcs vi. Strictly superior to the standard corran build that accompanies 58 dash but sitting pretty at 40 points, 2 cheaper than before.

losing boost at ps10 for a green 2 turn is not "strictly better"

You are not losing the boost as the 42 point corran does not for engine upgrade. Fcs r2 vi is standard when running with 58 dash.

ok, its better than corran when corran takes off some of his bells and wistles. Im not seeing a problem.

Normal Corran is fairly limited in his movement. If he wants to use R2, he has to bank. He can then boost or barrel, that doesn't really help him arc-dodge and it's easy to maintain firing arcs on him.

The fix you suggest would give him access to both hard 2s and 1-banks while keeping the regen. It's a fairly big boost to a ship that doesn't need it.

And somehow bank+boostbank is worse than hardturn and no boost?

Bank + Boostbank: You've spent your action and have no focus token. You also are still basically doing the same amount of movement as a hard 3. If someone moves into the space you just left, they can still keep you in arc.

Hard turn, no boost: You still have your action to take a focus or barrel roll out of arc.

Compare Defenders to both T-70 X-wings and old. Not getting stressed on the one or two times you perform a K-turn during a match doesn't make up for being 6 points overcosted. and having a lower pilot skill than most generics at those points.

If the X-wings are rocking Integrated Astromechs, they are suddenly more durable than Defenders.

You mean you'd put the basic PS2 defender at 24 points? The same as Red Squadron Pilot? For a strictly better ship? Now I can see why the designers don't use the forums for game design ideas.

Delta Squadron Pilot is piloting skill 1 for 30 points. Yes, I'd say he's over-costed by about 6.

T-70 Blue Squadron Novice is piloting skill 2 for 24 points, has the same shield and hull as the defender, trades the barrel roll for boost, one fewer agility, but can equip autothrusters and has a great upgrade bar. Compared to the Defender, is a bargain. The dial superior as well.

T-65 X-wings, you have a pilot skill 2 Rookie for 21 points, or a pilot skill 4 Red Squadron for 23. Either one can be given a 1 point astromech and 0 point modification to make them as durable as a defender.

I don't think the Defender dial is much better than the average X-wing's dial. Those red 1 and 2 turns really drag it down. It may have barrel roll but the low pilot skill limits the ability to arc dodge. Any X-wing with BB-8 can Arc dodge as well if not better.

If Delta Squadron was brought down by 6 points, the Ion Engine mk2 would make it 25. Suddenly you can run 4 in a list and it would probably be extremely popular and vaunted as the Imperial X-wing/B-wing.

For the love of Norway, you can run PS9 Darth Vader with Advanced Targeting Computer for the same points as a PS1 Defender.

Fixing the Defender is harder for FFG than fixing the Advanced. The Advanced wasn't good enough for its cost. But the Defender costs too much for what it does. It may sound like the same thing, but because of the common 100 point game cap, it is not.

If FFG is not going to lower the Defender's cost, either by reprinting new Pilot cards, or a Chardaan Refit-esque title, then raising the tournament cap by 20 points and creating some more points efficient Defender-only upgrades and pilots is the only way to save it. In my smelly opinion, at least.

My simple "model" still has the blue bwing as better than the xwing. The gap has closed significantly. I think if you like the dial or pilot abilities better than you should be good to fly the t65 instead of the bwing. Actually, if you disgard a double damage crit the T65 is more efficient than a bwing.

I wonder where the Defender would be if that K-Turn had actually been green. It might not be broken at that price and really unique, with all straight template manouvers green. Of course once TIE mk.2 gets into the picture thats a bit more dangerous. Might still not be broken.

Any thoughts from someone with a better understanding of the game?

I don't think it would make much difference. It might help Arc dodging in a turn after you took a red turn. But if you include Wingman, Epsilon Leader, or Captain Yorr in your lists, all your regular ships can find ways to shed stress.

I imagine it would be similar to including Advanced Sensors on those few fighters that can take system upgrades. The named StarViper pilots and Deathrain get a lot of mileage out of it before performing a K-turn or Segnor's loop.

I wonder where the Defender would be if that K-Turn had actually been green. It might not be broken at that price and really unique, with all straight template manouvers green. Of course once TIE mk.2 gets into the picture thats a bit more dangerous. Might still not be broken.

Any thoughts from someone with a better understanding of the game?

According to MajorJuggler's math, if I recall correctly, even if the Defender's entire dial were green it would still be over-costed purely on its stat line. It's part of why the TIE MkII doesn't really do anything to fix the real problem, it just makes the ship even more expensive. The previously mentioned Blue Squadron Novice costing what it does for a nearly identical stat line and an arguably better dial(the over costing is likely a byproduct of overestimating the value of the white K-turn) just drives that point home.

I like all this E-wing and defender talk, it's interesting. But can we get back on topic, on how we're all fuming that by the time we have enough IA for our x-wings (presuming min buy of 1 from core, 1 expansion and 1 from transport) and once we have the new damage deck, we will have brought 4 of the T-70! Sure it's a nice ship but I don't really want 4 of them. So far I haven't HAD to buy two of any set. Sure I could do with another one of This and a few more of That, but I haven't been forced to buy multiple of them to make my old ships effective again.

Why are we not really [swearing] mad about that we need n+1 t-70s where n is how many t-65s we have.

(and before anyone suggests that I just proxy, I would in fact like to play tornies with x-wings without paying for a load of stuff I don't want)

I hate Aggressors, but have to buy 4 of them to play a Z-95 feedback array swarm. That's twice as expensive as what you're complaining about.

(and before anyone suggests that I just proxy, I would in fact like to play tornies with x-wings without paying for a load of stuff I don't want)

Not going to happen, sorry. FFG deliberately distribute their upgrades to maximise ship sales. It's a bit of a **** move on their part.

No one is telling you to field 4 identical T-65s with IA.

Spam lists are a thing because of a lack of imagination! They work because it is easier to fly 4 ships that all share the same maneuver dial, and the ships that are spammable happen to be very points efficient.

You could field just one T-65 with Integrated Astromech, and add in some A-wings, A Y-wing with TLT, B-wings or a T-70.

Fly 2 iterations of X-wings side by side, it makes sense that the older ships would still be in service 30 years later with a few refurbishments.

Also I disagree with the train of thought that FFG uses upgrade cards to force you to buy stuff. They routinely throw in extra copies of cards in packs that you might find useful on other ships. 2 Autothrusters in the StarViper, 2 copies of Twin Ion Engine mk2 and Twin Laser Turret in the wave 7 packs. 2 copies of Engine Upgrade with the Millenium Falcon. 4 copies of the Title and ATC that came with the Raider, plus an extra ship to put one on.

putting the TIE X/1 title in the Raider pack is probably the most egregious example of their marketing strategy. You want your Advanced to be good? Buy this $100+ model!

I like all this E-wing and defender talk, it's interesting. But can we get back on topic, on how we're all fuming that by the time we have enough IA for our x-wings (presuming min buy of 1 from core, 1 expansion and 1 from transport) and once we have the new damage deck, we will have brought 4 of the T-70! Sure it's a nice ship but I don't really want 4 of them. So far I haven't HAD to buy two of any set. Sure I could do with another one of This and a few more of That, but I haven't been forced to buy multiple of them to make my old ships effective again.

Why are we not really [swearing] mad about that we need n+1 t-70s where n is how many t-65s we have.

(and before anyone suggests that I just proxy, I would in fact like to play tornies with x-wings without paying for a load of stuff I don't want)

Do you know anyone else who plays in your area that would let you borrow the needed cards for a tourney?

I like all this E-wing and defender talk, it's interesting. But can we get back on topic, on how we're all fuming that by the time we have enough IA for our x-wings (presuming min buy of 1 from core, 1 expansion and 1 from transport) and once we have the new damage deck, we will have brought 4 of the T-70! Sure it's a nice ship but I don't really want 4 of them. So far I haven't HAD to buy two of any set. Sure I could do with another one of This and a few more of That, but I haven't been forced to buy multiple of them to make my old ships effective again.

Why are we not really [swearing] mad about that we need n+1 t-70s where n is how many t-65s we have.

(and before anyone suggests that I just proxy, I would in fact like to play tornies with x-wings without paying for a load of stuff I don't want)

Do you know anyone else who plays in your area that would let you borrow the needed cards for a tourney?

Odds of a Wave 8.5 Aces pack comprising an X-wing (Either version, who knows) and an E-wing are pretty good. If it happens, I guarantee it'll have spare IAs in it, along with (hopefully) a range of interesting 'modern' design astromechs (which is to say, more R3-A2, less R5-K6).

So I'm willing to wait before I get furious; FFG doesn't generally leave people stuck forever - even if the early adopters end up shelling out. PTL Interceptors buying 1:1 A-wings, AdvS B-wings buying 1:1 shuttles... we've seen this before, and there's usually been a better card distribution in the long run.

Really, with the release of the Kithraxz, the most obnoxious old-wave must-have spammable card to still get our hands on is Tacticians. Because everyone needed quadruple Phantoms, right? Grr.

I hate Aggressors, but have to buy 4 of them to play a Z-95 feedback array swarm. That's twice as expensive as what you're complaining about.

But feedback array isn't a requirement to make the Z-95 effective. Granted there are ways to make a X-wing effective without IA, but for most of the pilots... not so much.

No one is telling you to field 4 identical T-65s with IA.

Spam lists are a thing because of a lack of imagination! They work because it is easier to fly 4 ships that all share the same maneuver dial, and the ships that are spammable happen to be very points efficient.

You could field just one T-65 with Integrated Astromech, and add in some A-wings, A Y-wing with TLT, B-wings or a T-70.

Fly 2 iterations of X-wings side by side, it makes sense that the older ships would still be in service 30 years later with a few refurbishments.

Also I disagree with the train of thought that FFG uses upgrade cards to force you to buy stuff. They routinely throw in extra copies of cards in packs that you might find useful on other ships. 2 Autothrusters in the StarViper, 2 copies of Twin Ion Engine mk2 and Twin Laser Turret in the wave 7 packs. 2 copies of Engine Upgrade with the Millenium Falcon. 4 copies of the Title and ATC that came with the Raider, plus an extra ship to put one on.

Point is I have 3 x-wings, it's kinda pointless me having 3 x-wings if I can't effectively feild them all at the same time. So far every other fix to specific ships only required you to buy one set unless you had already brought a LOT of that ship. Rebal Aces had 3 Refits for example, as most people only brought one or two A-Wings. Granted that's a box set but it's still only two ships worth cost wise. The T-70 having two IA would at least bring it in line with that price to fix ratio.

I like all this E-wing and defender talk, it's interesting. But can we get back on topic, on how we're all fuming that by the time we have enough IA for our x-wings (presuming min buy of 1 from core, 1 expansion and 1 from transport) and once we have the new damage deck, we will have brought 4 of the T-70! Sure it's a nice ship but I don't really want 4 of them. So far I haven't HAD to buy two of any set. Sure I could do with another one of This and a few more of That, but I haven't been forced to buy multiple of them to make my old ships effective again.

Why are we not really [swearing] mad about that we need n+1 t-70s where n is how many t-65s we have.

(and before anyone suggests that I just proxy, I would in fact like to play tornies with x-wings without paying for a load of stuff I don't want)

Do you know anyone else who plays in your area that would let you borrow the needed cards for a tourney?

Yeah I probably could if I wanted to, but I've been stung plenty of time in the past with borrowing, from both directions. + It would be nice to have all the cards I need when I don't have time to set up a borrow.

I like all this E-wing and defender talk, it's interesting. But can we get back on topic, on how we're all fuming that by the time we have enough IA for our x-wings (presuming min buy of 1 from core, 1 expansion and 1 from transport) and once we have the new damage deck, we will have brought 4 of the T-70! Sure it's a nice ship but I don't really want 4 of them. So far I haven't HAD to buy two of any set. Sure I could do with another one of This and a few more of That, but I haven't been forced to buy multiple of them to make my old ships effective again.

Why are we not really [swearing] mad about that we need n+1 t-70s where n is how many t-65s we have.

(and before anyone suggests that I just proxy, I would in fact like to play tornies with x-wings without paying for a load of stuff I don't want)

Do you know anyone else who plays in your area that would let you borrow the needed cards for a tourney?

Odds of a Wave 8.5 Aces pack comprising an X-wing (Either version, who knows) and an E-wing are pretty good. If it happens, I guarantee it'll have spare IAs in it, along with (hopefully) a range of interesting 'modern' design astromechs (which is to say, more R3-A2, less R5-K6).

So I'm willing to wait before I get furious; FFG doesn't generally leave people stuck forever - even if the early adopters end up shelling out. PTL Interceptors buying 1:1 A-wings, AdvS B-wings buying 1:1 shuttles... we've seen this before, and there's usually been a better card distribution in the long run.

Really, with the release of the Kithraxz, the most obnoxious old-wave must-have spammable card to still get our hands on is Tacticians. Because everyone needed quadruple Phantoms, right? Grr.

HAHAHA That's a fair point. I yeild.

I have some awesome lists that would benafit from tacticians, but i'm not even sure I want one Phantom.

I wonder where the Defender would be if that K-Turn had actually been green. It might not be broken at that price and really unique, with all straight template manouvers green. Of course once TIE mk.2 gets into the picture thats a bit more dangerous. Might still not be broken.

Any thoughts from someone with a better understanding of the game?

According to MajorJuggler's math, if I recall correctly, even if the Defender's entire dial were green it would still be over-costed purely on its stat line. It's part of why the TIE MkII doesn't really do anything to fix the real problem, it just makes the ship even more expensive. The previously mentioned Blue Squadron Novice costing what it does for a nearly identical stat line and an arguably better dial(the over costing is likely a byproduct of overestimating the value of the white K-turn) just drives that point home.

No offense to the people that have done the work. Surely they've but more effort into that I have but...

This is one of the reason's I feel the key to enjoying Star Wars: X-Wing is to ignore Math-Wing.

No offense to the people that have done the work. Surely they've but more effort into that I have but...

This is one of the reason's I feel the key to enjoying Star Wars: X-Wing is to ignore Math-Wing.

Depends on your definition of "enjoy". A lot of us find analyzing the game in that kind of depth quite enjoyable.

Besides, knowing a ship is overcosted doesn't mean you never fly it. I fly Defenders quite frequently in casual games. It just means I know what I'm getting into when I do fly it.

Fly 2 iterations of X-wings side by side, it makes sense that the older ships would still be in service 30 years later with a few refurbishments.

I really like this idea both thematically and in tactically. You have a couple rookies with cheaper astromechs as cheap, solid firepower, leaving some points for a pair of better equipped T70s. You present interesting decisions like "shoot at the cheaper T65 or shoot at the T70 with autothrusters". AND it's still packing 4 ships with 3 red dice and reasonably similar dials.

putting the TIE X/1 title in the Raider pack is probably the most egregious example of their marketing strategy. You want your Advanced to be good? Buy this $100+ model!

Which is why I haven't bought it yet. I like my Advanced, but I don't like it enough to spend $150 to make it better.