vandimar77 said:

Agreed, up to a point.

I appreciate that Arkham Horror is modular and you can add in and take out various components to suit you and your playing group but I don't believe you can extend such an approach to the rules of the game. Otherwise you open the door to all sorts of abuse. There has to be an official rules document that you teach to new players, that you use for any future Summer Leagues, that you use when playing with a new group of players, etc. What I am appealling against is any non-optional rule that would be included in the official rules purely to make this game harder. This game is already hard enough as it is. If people want it harder - or easier for that matter - then I am fully support Optional Rules or House Rules or new difficulty cards or new Heralds or new Guardians or whatever. But there is a difference between all of those and the Official Actual Set Rules. It is a change to the latter which I am opposed to.

jhaelen said:

And where do you stop? At what point have you changed so many rules that you're not playing Arkham Horror any more but some other game of your own devising??

Where's the cut off point where you say "OK, we won't change any more rules"?

If we introduce a rule that says that movement points are determined by the roll of a dice, is that still Arkham Horror? What if we said that there was no monster limit or gate limit? Still Arkham Horror? What if we said there was no Ancient One at all and we just played to see how many turns it took us to seal six locations. Still Arkham Horror?

We play be the rules because we want to play Arkham Horror. It's that simple. We modifiy the components used in each game because the components do not define the game, the rules do. The rules are set in place for a reason. And I am appealing against a non-optional modification to those rules to make the game harder.

Stenun said:

Yeeeeaaaah... One way or another I really don't see why anyone should get hysterical over this.

Stenun said:

Gah! It's a freaking board game. Emphasis on GAME. It's not *really* a matter of life and death. Board. Gaaaaaaame. I would go into why this discussion is utterly absurd some more, except this thread is fairly long, and I don't like getting into abstruse arguments over nonsense that everyone will end up playing however they please.

Avi_dreader said:

I know it's not a matter of life and death. I posted my original message expecting to answer maybe one or two responses. But for some reason I keep getting asked to clarify my position despite having stated it quite clearly several times. That is why I may appear to be getting a tad hysterical . Because despite ALL my messages, some people still don't seem to have grasped what I'm saying ...

Stenun said:

;') And here I thought you really thought it was.

I think people understand clearly what you're saying. I don't think you understand what they're saying.

First off, I DOUBT they're going to change the main rules of the game to include the clue token rule. I'm sure if it ever gets included, it will be optional rules of some sort. And second, even if they did change the rule, don't play it that way. Seriously. Play the game however you like. If you're concerned about when you're doing an official league, play it according to the rules, but if you're playing at home for fun, really, why does it matter if you change the rules?

I mean, Dam already does that by not counting final battle as a win, but a a draw, and he doesn't use Kingsport! ;-) No one is forcing you to do anything.

I'm really not sure why it seems like you're getting really worked up over this. It's an internet forum. It's a game. Play the game to have fun!

Gah stupid forum posting everything over and over!

johnwatersfan said:

If that was the case, why are there several messages in this thread all saying something like: "I don't understand what you're appealing for"?

johnwatersfan said:

Heh... I'll count final battles as wins, but not if the players horde up clue tokens for it. There needs to be a good faith effort to go for a sealing victory. If you reach a point in the game where that looks impossible, I think it's only fair to have players seek to stock up for combat. As for the clue rule. It's not going to be made. No one has even discussed it being made in a serious context. Personally, I would love to see the implementation of the dump green epic battle cards equal to 6 minus the number of elder signs you have on the board. It makes me sad how rarely one gets to see red in the Final Battle. And it would incentivise sealing. ::Shrug:: Whether it's made an official rule or not. I don't care in the slightest. I'm probably just going to start using it on my own one of these days. If only I weren't so scared ;')

I basically play by the rules. If I feel the game is too hard I'll use tactical exploits that are technically legitimate. If I feel it is too easy I'll toss in a complementary herald. Usually I draw investigators randomly, sometimes I select specific ones, or a best one out of two draws or two out of three, I also play solitaire games often, or if with another player, play two investigators each. All against the rules ;') No one cares. The Arkham Horror police have not yet dragged me into a death camp. I am safe... For now.

P.S. DAM RUN! THEY'RE AT THE DOOR! THEY'RE COMING FOR YOU NEXT!

Dam:

"Alternately, players may agree to choose their investigators, starting with the first player and continuing clockwise until every player has selected an investigator." Base rules, pg 5.

The limit of 16 investigator sheets only specifically applies to randomly shuffling and choosing option. We prefer the second method. ^.^

Kkat

Relocated down the thread due to time differential

OK, maybe I should have included this link in the OP but never mind ...

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=5&efcid=1&efidt=148484

I specifically draw your attention to KevinW's last sentence of "It may see life as an official rule ... later on if y'all like it."

Everyone understand now? THAT is what I am appealing against ... I wanted to make it clear that I DON'T like it, and why I don't like it too. Simple as that.

Stenun said:

If that was the case, why are there several messages in this thread all saying something like: "I don't understand what you're appealing for"?

I don't think they were asking for a clarification to your position. I think they were asking why you felt it warranted such a fervant petition here on these boards, amongst these people. "What for?" = "Why?": "I don't understand why you're appealing."

This is not to say that you don't have a valid opinion, by any means. (I happen to agree with you.) It merely asks what makes you think you could alter the opinions of the most-present members here.

Stenun said:

Good thing I sharpen my teeth and was able to gnaw my way out of that black bag. Oh yes, I nearly forgot, I wanted to respond to something

While I'd love to see the remove Epic Battle cards rule made official, I think the clue reduction rule is far more debatable. It's true, it fixes a number of problems and game abuses, but it also makes a number of other situations very difficult. Still... I would lean in favor of it. Realistically, it wouldn't affect me in most games, and if I were playing a 1-2 player game, I'd premy characters, probably (and try to get two or three seals in before the ancient one woke up). I think it would make the game strategy more interesting in those cases.

Stenun said:

Again... What new "non-optional" Rules are you talking about? Is somebodyly magically reaching out and editing your physical rulebook? The are no "new non-optional rules". At all.

If this is causing you stress, then stop visiting the FFG site and boards. Turn off your computer if you have to. To be absolutely clear: nothing on the internet has to impact your game!

You have your rules. You paid for them. You play by them. If there is a question or dispute about a rule or how to impliment it, the First Player is arbiter, as per the rules. This is not the same as the First Player just making up rules. (Although if you are actually incapable of comprehending how that is different, it may go a fair way to explaining why you are wigging out.)

If you want to make House Rules, you are free to so long as all the players agree on them. This is also not the same as the First Player just making up rules.

It is not required that the way your group plays the game and the way anybody else plays the game has to be exactly alike. So don't worry if there are people out there playing it differently than you are.

I simply don't understand what you are freaking out about. Maybe I just don't understand what situation you are in. Are you part of some sort of Arkham Horror Tournament run by people who download their rules off the internet, and are likely to impliment suggestions and online "FAQs" as hard rules? Are you part of some multi-city "player swap" group that can't handle the idea of local variation in their groups?

I'd seen the link you provided, and I still don't get it. Exactly why are you worried that any such rule is going to become "official"? Official how? Somehow, I don't think that KevinW deciding it is official will cause the rulebook that you already bought to mystically re-write itself to include that rule. And unless it does, or unless you buy a new expansion that does include that rule, it's not something you have to play with. Ever. What is the problem?

Kkat

To be honest, Kkat, I'm not entirely sure if you're being serious or not.

I've explained my position several times and have even explained that the reason I was getting a tad frayed over this topic was because I had to keep explaining my position to those who said they didn't get it despite the number of times I've explained it. And now here you are again saying you don't get it ... One could quite easily reach the opinion that you are goading me deliberately. :-)

I've outlined my position several times and have now included a link to the original thread where this rule was proposed, I even drew specific attention to the bit where KevinW said this might become an official rule. Yet still you claim not to understand my position.

So ... fine. You don't understand my position. I'm sorry I've failed to explain it adequately.

Maybe Kevin meant that he'd consider making it an official variant, not a concrete rule. In a way it wouldn't make sense as a straight-up rule unless the actual rulebooks were re-printed with it, as that would meant that the players would have to discover the rule online, and it's never implicitly or explicitly expressed that you're supposed to go online to make sure the rules in the rule book are totally correct.

Personally I want the clue limit rule/variant to come through, if only so that everyone at least knows about it, regardless of if they use it. It's a good idea. Every house rule I use currently are intended to fit the theme of the game, whether they make the game harder or easier. Note that such a rule would not make "the game" harder to win, it would make "the last-ditch, final chance, all-or-nothing way to win the game" harder. Or, you can think of it as making it harder to exploit.

Cosmic evil of every tier of horrible manifestation shouldn't always be trumped by a human who carries a shotgun and happens to have enough knowledge to know where to shoot (except Yibb and Tsathoggua. Urg).

I should mention that when I sent off my criticisms of the upcoming FAQ, I recommended that the clue-seal limit be mentioned, but I also recommended that, like with money, investigators should not be allowed to receive clues during final combat. However this was intended more to repair the Nyarlathotep/Roland situation. A blanket rule would just be simpler, and make more sense: you don't have time to learn new things while you're being suffocated by tentacles.

Stenun said:

Oh, don't worry. You've explained it adequately. Many, many times.

It just doesn't make any sense.

To me, the whole thing seems to go something like this:

Stenun: "According to this link, Maytag is considering putting live alligators in all of their new refrigerators! I own a Maytag refrigerator and I don't want my hand bitten off! This is an appeal to NOT put live alligators in Maytag refrigerators!"

Everyone else: "um... You do know that there are other brands of refrigerators, right? Even if they do that, and you need to buy a new refrigerator, just buy a different brand."

Me: "Even if Maytag does decide to put live alligators in their new refrigerators, they are not going to break into your home and stuff one into the refrigerator that you already have ."

Sternun: "Gah! Nobody understands what I'm saying!"

Yes. Yes we do. Furthermore, we understand how basically ridiculous the protest is. You, apparently, don't. And that is what we don't understand.

Kkat

Kkat said:

I'm not going to rise to it.

Hmmm... I think I'm just going to add a note suggesting that the epic battle card reductions, and the clue limits be added in as optional variants. That way everyone will be happy.

I think I understand his point, and see where he's coming from.

Its not about fear that someone's going to force him to play by the official internet published rules. Atleast to me, it would be more about a feeling of guilt, or perhaps inadequacy, because of knowing that you're not playing by the official rules. Its like, you know you're taking shortcuts because the game is too much for you, but you still feel guilty for it, and that tarnishes your enjoyment of the game.

But likewise, for an individual who wants it harder, there's not likely to be any guilt in cranking up the difficulty - afterall, what do you have to be ashamed of if you play the game at a higher level of difficulty?

So, if the rules are made more difficult, one type of user does in fact lose something from the game, but the other user gains something that they can gain just as well through a house rule or variant.

Nobody should ever suggest leaving the forum so you're not exposed to rules updates as a serious solution. If you're here, its likely because you draw some kind of enjoyment from the game. And in that case, you should be glad that others are enjoying the game too, because that will lead FFG to offer more support for it. If users leave the forum, that's an indicator of lack of public interest, and that's bad for everyone.

This is a weird thread, folks.

@Stenum: I think when the others (like Kkat) said they didn't understand your position, what they meant was that they didn't understand why you'd feel the need to appeal to anyone about it - because it seems like you're free to ignore whatever rules you want, even official rules.

Personally, I ignore about half the rulebook. As for the house rules which are talked about on this forums - most of those are total blither, and I should know because I have suggested many of them myself. For example, certain morally-degenerate individuals on these boards seem think that sealing is the only respectable victory, and that Final Battle wins count as draws; I happen to think that's total monkey trumpets.

If all you were trying to do is lay out the arguments for not making the game more difficult, then fair enough - they're pretty reasonable arguments. But I don't feel like they apply to my experience of playing the game, and from the looks of it, many other players feel the same. Tibs' statistics don't really reflect my experiences much either. When it comes down to it, AH is a highly modular game, everyone has different strategies, and you can mix and match whatever elements you want in order to adjust the difficulty of each individual game. There's a pretty big stock of difficulty-adjusting resources at this point, since you can pretty much add any combination of components and the game rules will (mostly) cope with it.

I guess the only productive discussion to be had here is about the relative merits of the various ways of making the game harder or easier. I'm generally against complex house rules and rules variants anyway, but only because I'd usually rather see those rules turned into custom Heralds, so that they fit within the ordinary rules structures of the game. Plus then I can have fun nitpicking them on the custom content threads.

(I agree with you completely about the "thematic" arguments, by the way: not only is theme a secondary consideration, but also the theme of the Mythos is not quite as consistent as many people seem to think anyway, and having humans triumphing over cosmic horrors face to face isnot a serious violation of the spirit of the Mythos. Like you say, it happens in The Call of Cthulhu - and also in The Dunwich Horror and in plenty of other core HPL stories, not mention many times in the work of later Mythos writers.)

Stenun said:

I'm with you in theory. I would word it as "the official rules should cater to the median player level". Players then add rules to increase/decrease difficulty from there. I doubt the median Joe Arkham player found the black goat herald to be reasonable or the likes of Yog or Atlach too easy (much less Zhar), yet the ancient ones keep getting more and more ridiculous until even the most hardcore of teams are dying 99% of the time. There really aren't any rules out there to make final combat easier for players who think it's too tough, yet there are a ton of optional rules in place to make it harder (Kevin's seal rule and Richard's house rule) for players who feel it's too easy. Would it not make more sense to design ancient ones for a median diffulty then?

It's just starting to feel like the baseline difficulty is being pushed farther and farther to the extreme hard end and average players have to employ more and more rules to bring it back down to their level. This is especially hard since casual players are the least equipped to come up with balanced house rules. Ignoring new internet published rules is one thing, but you can't really ignore new ancient ones.

Stenun said:

If you should happen to feel the desire to ever create an appeal-thread anywhere again, I'd recommend to put the information what the appeal is about right into your opening post.

Now, to my opinion about your appeal: You don't need to worry. Really. Relax and read some of the replies in this thread, e.g. thecorinthian's last post. How about playing a game of Arkham Horror instead of hanging around here and arguing a futile point?