To parallel the t-70 thread, I figured we should discuss these little oddities in more depth

Releasing imperial A-wings when the Tie Fighter already exists is a very strange move, considering the old Tie is already quite maneuverable. Still, let's try to find some unique advantages that the fo could bring over its older, far more efficient brother.

Disclaimer: never forget these guys have a tech upgrade slot and that we only have Weapons Guidance to go off on. For all we know, some future tech card could completely revolutionize these letter buggers, but of course we have no way of knowing till we get there.

anyway

Epsilon: the parallel to the old standard, the Academy Pilot. In exchange for 3 points and a chunk of jousting efficiency, the Epsilon adds a shield, a target-lock, and a swanky new dial.

the shield's nice

low PS target-locks are notoriously unreliable, but they are useful in certain situations. During turns when you won't shoot or be shot (such as when setting up for a block), preparing a TL for a future turn could end up winning you the game. Its something I've learned to appreciate when flying A-wings, so no doubt it'll come up for the Fos every now and again.

the main thing is the dial, namely the green 2-turn and the two 2 segnors. While the many implications of these new maneuvers will take table time for fully explore, I can say very quickly that they make the Fo much easier to handle in a crush of obstacles. Having a choice of Segnors (instead of a single direction K) AND a k-turn to fall back on let you act around the presence of obstacles much more easily than the standard tie.

Having another choice of green maneuvers afterwards makes things even easier.

Zeta: It's the Epsilon with +1 PS for +1 point. Unlike the 2 point PS increases (Gray, Dagger, Gamma etc.), the 1 point PS increases (obsidian and Tala) have in my experience seen a lot of play. At the very least, predator protection and the apparent popularity of low PS tlts will give the Zeta a place (provided the Epsilon takes off at all)

The advantage of having less predictable red maneuvers against PS 1-2 pilots should be considered, as well

Omega: The Green Squadron + 1, the Omega is the first pilot that can truly abuse the added TL action with the PTL ept. Clocking in at the same price as an AT Alpha squadron, the Omega could prove to be a reliable (if pillowfisted) addition to squads.

No idea where they could fit in, but I am interested in trying them out with Redline. While I enjoyed using 5 academy pilots to block and josut for him, I find that I just can't stand green dice for too long. Hopefully, the reliability of PTL evade will mitigate that issue.

Zeta Ace aka "Mr. Troll Roll:" Zeta ace trades a point for 1 more ps and an ability.

It is hard to say how significant the PS, because there aren't nearly as many popular PS 4 pilots as there are 1, 2, and 3. Maybe TLTs will make this relevant, but so far PS 5 and 4 are functionally identical against most meta lists.

So onto the reason you brought this guy: the troll roll. Zeta Ace basically de-cloaks every time he rolls, he can lead to some incredible flexibility. Against lower PS enemies, it becomes easier to arc-dodge. Against higher PS enemies, you can come twirling out of left field to set up a block.

Zeta ace strikes me as "an annoying pain in the ass" (same classification given to lone Prototype pilots or Dark Curse). If you like using those ships, you should enjoy Zeta. I could see taking him over a naked omnicron, or even an AC tempest squadron pilot for the higher PS, maneuverability, and PTL.

Epsilon Leader: easily the most popular of the lot. EP is a super-ultra-mega-special wingman that works on all friendly ships within range 1 of him, including himself. Sadly, no ept

Honestly, his application seems obvious, whether using him with a jousting swarm or with PTL pilots. Probably the most evidently viable Fo pilot of them all.

Omega Ace: I don't get this guy.

His ability is legit because guarantees are legit, but it does not up his dice output or help smacking through green dice and it seems incredibly reliable on PTL or outside synergy due to the double requirement of focus + TL

His PS is legit, but not high enough to threaten 2-ship meta staples (tend to hover at the 8-9 mark, unless you run into non-V.I aggressors)

Best I can see, he's a PS 7 omega squadron pilot that you don't want to ignore (because if you let him go in unmolested into range 1...)

whether or not that's worth 23 points with the PTL is beyond me.

any ideas on how to get these fancy black tie fighters into our games?

I don't get why people keep calling it the imperial a-wing when that's clearly the TAP.

The fo can't boost, can't use Autothrusters and can't launch missiles.

Sure it's got a better dial but it pays for it and in the end it pays too much to make it preferable over the classic tie, the named are also too expensive.

It's practically never a good idea to take a named headhunter because they are so fragile it'll be the same case with the fo.

nice analysis! ty!

I don't think they are really that bad, they don't swarm as well as the original tie, but make a less howlrunner dependent. Perfect for mini swarms or like a two of or one of in a list, and that's good because the old tie was almost never worth it as one or two in a list, these new guys are a little more survivable and that dial is a blast! Very good

I don't get why people keep calling it the imperial a-wing when that's clearly the TAP.

I don't get why people keep calling the TAP an imperial a-wing when we don't yet know its dial.

I'm considering using them as friends for vessery, 1 shield and a better dial for one point more than a TIE/ln with targeting computer

Mini swarm potential is intriguing. They're less efficient but they have near interceptor dials

My main interest in them is that howlie's back in my local scene and I always lose dice trades between ties

The fos won't win dice offs with ties, but they might offer alternative options

I don't get why people keep calling it the imperial a-wing when that's clearly the TAP.

The fo can't boost, can't use Autothrusters and can't launch missiles.

Sure it's got a better dial but it pays for it and in the end it pays too much to make it preferable over the classic tie, the named are also too expensive.

It's practically never a good idea to take a named headhunter because they are so fragile it'll be the same case with the fo.

I'm worried about their fragility too, but comparing them to z-95s is just excessive.

Here are some things the for has that the z95 does not

1) +1 agility (yeah not much but it's there)

2) a dial that doesn't suck. I dropped zs entirely because of how ungodly annoying they are to pilot through obstacle fields.

3) a post maneuver action (the lack thereof really kills zs for me, too)

4) ptlable evade (guaranteed damage reduction is the best damage reduction)

Also, while I worry about them lacking thrusters, they're surprisingly cheap as far as aces go.

Ptl puts zeta at 21 (tempest x1) and the omega at 23 (getting close to the doom shuttle, but below the ptl saber)

They'd compete with bsps if the empire could take those

From what I have seen is the new set took the old core set ships gave it those new reversal maneuvers, 1 shield, 1 additional action and increased the point cost by 3. I can agree with everything except for the +3 point cost on the T-70.

Now going to those modifications that raise stats like hull upgrade or add actions like Millennium Falcon title I know that the pilot card squadron points is calculated the same way as modification upgrades. However comparing them to the old ships and upgrades can make a valid point. Now for the Target Lock upgrade that is 2 points and the shield upgrade is 4 points so making it 3 points does make some what sense as it cost more than the targeting computer for the target lock but less than the shield upgrade. So in a way you spend some points to get a discount shield upgrade and the targeting computer comes in free. That I can understand as it is sort of a lesser power creep. Now will it be any good? A 4 hit ships with 2 firepower at 15 points, I know I have seen that some where prototype pilot

But as for the T-70 this is straight up power creep. Both the Engine Upgrade and the Shield Upgrade each cost 4 points, and you can get both with the T-70 for only 3 points. Now if it were 4 points more than that is understandable but this is get a discount + a free upgrade. The T-70 got way more of a deal than the TIE-FO. Sorry imps, but just like in wave 7 you got shafted.

The generic just doesn't feel like it's worth it compared to an Academy TIE.

Dunno 'bout everyone else, but I am going to BRUTALLY abuse Epsilon Leader in many, many lists.

a) For the umpteenth time, you can't use the cost of Shield Upgrade or Targetting Computer to judge what the addition of Target Lock or +1 Shield "should" be on a specific ship. It should be obvious that, say, one more shield on a Decimator is not worth the same as one more shield on an Interceptor.

b) I wish people would stop using the phrase "power creep" to describe any new ship that's more efficient than the worst existing ships. The introduction of a new ship that's as efficient as a bloody generic StarViper is the opposite of power creep.

c) For flipping flip's sake.

The generic just doesn't feel like it's worth it compared to an Academy TIE.

my fear as well. As a jouster, they are certainly, mathematically inferior.

All they have going for them is TL (eh) and their dial. Favoring a crush of obstacles is atypical for a "swarmy" ship, however. Only the B-wing and TLTs really love diving in there, usually it's the high PS dudes trying to break up enemy jousters.

Having a ship that can follow aces into the obstacle field could be something, potentially.

-snipy snip-

yeah, no

just refer to Rodafowa

I don't get why people keep calling it the imperial a-wing when that's clearly the TAP.

The fo can't boost, can't use Autothrusters and can't launch missiles.

Sure it's got a better dial but it pays for it and in the end it pays too much to make it preferable over the classic tie, the named are also too expensive.

It's practically never a good idea to take a named headhunter because they are so fragile it'll be the same case with the fo.

The dials are almost identical. The A has some extra green forwards, the TIEs get Segnors. Each has 4 health, 3 agility, 2 ATK, the focus/evade/TL actions (barrel roll instead of boost) and a PS1 version of each costs 15 points. And yes, they mostly aren't good though I think some things can be done with Epsilon Leader as they were with captain Yorr.

The TIE/FO can do some stuff that the TIE/LN can't, and it's got a shield. Target Lock is also not useless, and it can take tech.

A ship with 4 overall health and some decent upgrade slots isn't something we're unfamiliar with. It's a nice midrange imperial fighter, and it'll be used as such.

I really, really like the dial. That is likely what will keep my using the FO over the V1.

As for Omega Ace, his ability is a finisher. You wait until the target's shields are down and you are at Range 1, then you unleash. Until then, tank with Focus/Evade. You use his ability when it is best to be used.

a) For the umpteenth time, you can't use the cost of Shield Upgrade or Targetting Computer to judge what the addition of Target Lock or +1 Shield "should" be on a specific ship. It should be obvious that, say, one more shield on a Decimator is not worth the same as one more shield on an Interceptor.

b) I wish people would stop using the phrase "power creep" to describe any new ship that's more efficient than the worst existing ships. The introduction of a new ship that's as efficient as a bloody generic StarViper is the opposite of power creep.

c) For flipping flip's sake.

Still about point efficiency and the T-70 has more of it in all comparisons to the T-65.

Back on topic does the TIE FO have more efficiency than the classic TIE-Fighter (aka the TIE/LN) Well yes and no. For example as the topic mentioned above if it were possible to use the royal guard TIE on all TIES (a suggestion made in another thread that I may or may not concur with) then yes the TIE-FO is more efficient in that regards. Since that is not possible you would actually need a different method of determining efficiency. However how is the naked TIE-FO compared to the TIE-Fighter (classic) in point efficiency. Well we can already find a very similar ship having 2 firepower 3 agility 4 hit points and a maneuverable dial all for 15 squadron points (Prototype pilot w/Chardaan refit). In compassion of which is more efficient then the winner goes to the classic TIE Fighter.

So sums up T-65 < T-70 in efficiency where as the (classic) TIE-Fighter > TIE-Fighter FO in point efficiency. The Rebels got the better ship out of this. The best ship, no but definitely the better ship.

Yes but you can't fly A-Wings in The Imperial side.

Yes but you can't fly A-Wings in The Imperial side.

Do Evade, Segnor's Loop, and Barrel Roll make the 6 TIE/FO squadron better at arc-dodging than the 6 A-wing Chardaan Refit squadron, I'm wondering?

You really need to stop trying to compare T-70 to T-65. The T-65 is waiting on a balance patch; why not compare these TIE/FO's to pre-chardaan A-wings and declare the sky is falling for the rebels? Seriously, we need to wait for the patch to be able to say either way how the two ships stack up.

Back on topic: Really, I plan to fly these things like Prototypes - 2-3 as a sturdier filler for more powerful ships elsewhere, where straight up TIE swarmlet doesn't make as much sense. For instance, when you have 30pts spare, and not 36 - Vader, Soontir, & 2 FOs, anyone?

One thing of note is that they'll be able to help Vessery out a whole pile more - especially that ace of theirs. TL early on, let Vessery burn down their shields, and then slam home with extra crits on a later turn.

Fly alongside Vader, and there'll be painted targets galore.

2) a dial that doesn't suck. I dropped zs entirely because of how ungodly annoying they are to pilot through obstacle fields.

There's your first mistake; caring about obstacles.

With those shields, I don't care to fly through them. Having debris with them is even better. Only thing I wished they had a 1 green banks so I could slow roll out of a k-turn. Other than that, I love the little buggers.

The generic just doesn't feel like it's worth it compared to an Academy TIE.

V-V-V-VESSERYYYYY would like to have a word.

What filler for double phantom list?

100 points Pilots ------

“Whisper” [Navigator, Fire-Control System, Veteran Instincts, Advanced Cloaking Device] (42)

“Echo” [Agent Callus, Fire-Control System, Veteran Instincts, Advanced Cloaking Device] (39)

“Zeta Ace” [Veteran Instincts] (19)

The generic just doesn't feel like it's worth it compared to an Academy TIE.

V-V-V-VESSERYYYYY would like to have a word.

Actually as his closest friend I can assure you he's perfectly happy hanging around with Lord Vader and maarek.

Seriously using that TL is committing suicide your fo will pop vessery won't get the benefit and your down a ship.

I'm having a little trouble with the fo because TIEs have such questionable offense in the first place. I have a hard time paying for more defense and keeping the offense low.

Still about point efficiency and the T-70 has more of it in all comparisons to the T-65.

And again, as multiple people have multiply told you - you're comparing a new ship with a ship that's basically invisible in the competitive meta and is waiting for a fix that FFG have more-or-less directly stated is coming. Of COURSE the T-70 has some stuff going for it compared to the T-65. If it didn't the game would have TWO X-Wings nobody's flying rather than one. But AGAIN, that's not. Freaking. "Power creep". Because by that definition every time FFG release a Scum ship that's more viable than a Scyk ZOMG POWER CREEP!

Urgh. OK. Not another word on this subject from me.

Back on topic:

Epsilon Leader is great, and he's got the dial to keep up with the sort of ship that'll really appreciate having its stress alleviated. And he takes stress off in the Combat phase, so Soontir would still get his bonus Focus. Plus his ability's good enough that he might get targeted first, making him the same sort of shield-upgrade-that-shoots-back that Xizor's escort is. Oh, and as the icing on the cake he's fast with a repositioning action and shoots before TLT carriers. He might actually be the thing I need to make a Fel-Whisper-Scrub list work, because previously Rebel Captive shut that down HARD. So something like:

Whisper + VI, ACD, Sensor Jammer, Intel (42)

Soonts + Soontir stuff (35)

Epsilon Leader + Hull (22)

Hmmmm. Maybe not enough gun.