Am I correct in thinking that as Defiant is a card effect the die is added during the modify step rather than the gather dice pool step prior to rolling? Therefore can be of any colour ignoring range restrictions?

My thoughts exactly! I was wondering why no one else had pointed this out. Add a black dice, two with concentrate fire, just like the Paragon, only much more reliable, and if Ackbar slashing, can let it out both broadsides! (as long as both targets have activated).

Defiance is definitely a card that would favour a 4 ship build. Could be devastating. Which is great, it was always my favourite ship in the X Wing game.

On that topic, I tried Paragon the other week end and had a question. Can you add a Black Dice that was added through a card with Concentrate Fire ? I thought it was only dice that were gathered in the attack pool (so only red and blues) ?

Am I correct in thinking that as Defiant is a card effect the die is added during the modify step rather than the gather dice pool step prior to rolling? Therefore can be of any colour ignoring range restrictions?

My thoughts exactly! I was wondering why no one else had pointed this out. Add a black dice, two with concentrate fire, just like the Paragon, only much more reliable, and if Ackbar slashing, can let it out both broadsides! (as long as both targets have activated).

Defiance is definitely a card that would favour a 4 ship build. Could be devastating. Which is great, it was always my favourite ship in the X Wing game.

On that topic, I tried Paragon the other week end and had a question. Can you add a Black Dice that was added through a card with Concentrate Fire ? I thought it was only dice that were gathered in the attack pool (so only red and blues) ?

The dreaded Paragon Double Tap.

Well, "The way its been explained to me" (the old excuse) is that the concentrate fire command is resolved in the "Resolve Attack Effects" Step (Step 3). So you gather and roll the attack pool in step 2, then in step 3, if resolving concentrate fire, you can add another dice to the attack pool of a colour that is already in the attack pool - in this case the black.

Am I correct in thinking that as Defiant is a card effect the die is added during the modify step rather than the gather dice pool step prior to rolling? Therefore can be of any colour ignoring range restrictions?

My thoughts exactly! I was wondering why no one else had pointed this out. Add a black dice, two with concentrate fire, just like the Paragon, only much more reliable, and if Ackbar slashing, can let it out both broadsides! (as long as both targets have activated).

Defiance is definitely a card that would favour a 4 ship build. Could be devastating. Which is great, it was always my favourite ship in the X Wing game.

On that topic, I tried Paragon the other week end and had a question. Can you add a Black Dice that was added through a card with Concentrate Fire ? I thought it was only dice that were gathered in the attack pool (so only red and blues) ?

The dreaded Paragon Double Tap.

Well, "The way its been explained to me" (the old excuse) is that the concentrate fire command is resolved in the "Resolve Attack Effects" Step (Step 3). So you gather and roll the attack pool in step 2, then in step 3, if resolving concentrate fire, you can add another dice to the attack pool of a colour that is already in the attack pool - in this case the black.

Yeah, but does "the attack pool" refers to the total number of dice you threw or to the dice you gathered during Step 2 ?

Then we can ask : are the effects of Paragon and Concentrate Fire simultaneous or sequential ? In the first case, technically the black die isn't yet in the attack pool. In the second case, we could argue it is. I guess I'll email FFG to have a clear answer about that.

I tend to believe this version, simply because it is implied that the effects in the Resolve Attack Effects step (3) that the effects can be resolved in any order. For example using H9s and Warlord to turn a hit to an accuracy and then to a double hit. Or in the Mon Cal article, applying "Leading Shots" and then "Home One".

Also FAQ Page 2.

Happy to be corrected, or even better, have it explicitly answered in the next iteration of the FAQ.

I tend to believe this version, simply because it is implied that the effects in the Resolve Attack Effects step (3) that the effects can be resolved in any order. For example using H9s and Warlord to turn a hit to an accuracy and then to a double hit. Or in the Mon Cal article, applying "Leading Shots" and then "Home One".

Also FAQ Page 2.

Happy to be corrected, or even better, have it explicitly answered in the next iteration of the FAQ.

I would tend to agree with you (otherwise Paragon is super expensive for a title) for sure, the implication that you can resolve them in whatever order is definitely there

I wasn't trying to argue against your point, I was just trying to see whether there was a weak spot in that ruling so that it could be corrected by a FAQ and made clear to everyone. Last time I played we had no idea with my friend so I added an extra blue die, but I'd rather have added a Black

All good!

A related case is "opening salvo". My VSD used it with concentrate fire the other night against a space whale at long range, with very satisfying results...

Yeah, but does "the attack pool" refers to the total number of dice you threw or to the dice you gathered during Step 2 ?

Then we can ask : are the effects of Paragon and Concentrate Fire simultaneous or sequential ? In the first case, technically the black die isn't yet in the attack pool. In the second case, we could argue it is. I guess I'll email FFG to have a clear answer about that.

It is sequence based. You have to resolve 1 effect before using another. The timing is simultaneously done but you have to resolve 1 effect at a time.

So for example an Assault Cruiser with leading shots shoots rolls blank, blank, blank, crit, hit, and a lose of a blue die from obstruction. You can then use leading shots to remove the blue die left and then you. Can use your concentrate fire dial to give you a red but you no longer have blue to add

Just an update to close once and for all the rules debate, I've had this answer from FFG today :

Hello, Robin,

James Kniffen

Game Designer

Fantasy Flight Games

[email protected]

____

So, I'm guessing it works with Defiance too

Great work!

... but it has always been this way?

Have people been saying you cannot add that second black dice?

Man, I gotta keep up to date with my threads!

Just a bit confused by the OP.

Are you suggesting you can shoot a ship with Defiant that has activated for an extra dice, and then shoot it again with Paragon next activation for the extra black dice? As I dont think you can because "You" on paragon means just that ship, not you as the player.

... but it has always been this way?

Have people been saying you cannot add that second black dice?

Man, I gotta keep up to date with my threads!

No, no, it was more a practical question on my part. I wasn't sure you could do that because the question came up in a game and we were at a loss with my opponent

What James Kniffen said settles once and for all (unless FAQed) the fact that dice modifications are sequential. It was hinted at, but the occurences where you add dice that aren't normally gathered in the attack pool aren't plentiful within the ruleset.

Called it.

Great work, MoffZen.

It does make Paragon and Defiance quite more powerful for their cost, which is great. Still not Demolisher level, but for half the points.

As an Assault Cruiser in a 2nd player bid with more activations, the Defiance is going to be fun to play. "Oh, you didn't like 6 dice broadside ? Now eat one to two more additional dice !" With Enhanced Armaments, that makes it Imperial Star Destroyer front arc material, with Ackbar it blows it out of the window.

Why/How was this ever in dispute?

Why/How was this ever in dispute?

Because I don't think it was ever clearly mentionned in the rules (and perhaps my opponent and I missed it), that we could resolve dice modification in any order possible. So we didn't know whether CF could add a Black Dice after Paragon added one to the attack pool, because we simply didn't know whether effects were simultaneous or sequential

It is mentioned in the rules they just use "/" to show that.

Agreed with Scottie... this is always how this has worked. Not sure why the uncertainty came up again...

It's just game terms and timing mechanics; takes a little bit to get one's head around is all

It is mentioned in the rules they just use "/" to show that.

Agreed with Scottie... this is always how this has worked. Not sure why the uncertainty came up again...

Can you quote it please ? Or point me to the area, so that I don't have to show the e-mail next time

Why/How was this ever in dispute?

Because I don't think it was ever clearly mentionned in the rules (and perhaps my opponent and I missed it), that we could resolve dice modification in any order possible. So we didn't know whether CF could add a Black Dice after Paragon added one to the attack pool, because we simply didn't know whether effects were simultaneous or sequential

Here's your quote. It was simply overlooked:

When you have multiple effects that trigger at the same time, you choose what order:

Rules Reference (Pg 5)

Effect Use and Timing

Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can resolve. This timing is usually specified within the effect, though some effects use the more specific timing described in this section.

...

• If two or more of a player’s effects have the same timing, that player can resolve those effects in any order.

...

"Add to your Attack Pool"

and

"Add to your Attack Pool"

is the same timing - its after you gather your attack pool...

Ergo, you could add 1 die due to Paragon / Defiant if appropriate. Then, choosing your timing, add one die of any existing colour, which you already just added...

It is mentioned in the rules they just use "/" to show that.

Agreed with Scottie... this is always how this has worked. Not sure why the uncertainty came up again...

Can you quote it please ? Or point me to the area, so that I don't have to show the e-mail next time

Darn. . . I have the thread for Attacks in the Rules section imprinted on my mind. . .

Oh well, the easiest way to show this is to use the reference guide. Use Page 2 on Attacks under Modify dice which is on the left bottom of the page. Combine that with page 7 Modify Dice on the bottom right of the page.

This was my reference as well My point was that under these rules it wasn't clearly explicited the order in which multiple effects were resolved (and neither does the FAQ). It says "any" of the effect can be resolved, but the question of whether there was a precise timing or whether the timing was up to the player whose activation is was wasn't resolved. It was what led to the confusion for this specific scenario.

However good is the Attacks thread in the Rules Section, some part are player conventions rather where the rules are unclear rather than true rulings. It's still an awesome thread and I'm probably going to post the reply from FFG there.

I was just trying to legimitze why it was a proper interrogation, rather than a "you guys completely misunderstood the rules, what a bunch of morons" moment

Now that we've got a truly official response from FFG, we now all know for an unarguable fact that resolving attack effects steps that involve multiple effects allow the player to choose in which order these effects take place.