2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

You don't know just how wrong you are in that statement. Under the old canon rules , as explicitly stated by then LFL head Sue Rostoni, as well as Leeland Chee, everything not labeled as Infinities was Canon . The different levels of canon were only there to establish a hierarchy where any potential conflicts might occur. This had been repeatedly established numerous times.

Eh, sure... but they're using the word Canon wrong.
If everything that is "canon" can be changed willy-nilly at the whims of one person, then it's not canon.

3 hours ago, GroggyGolem said:

To boil it down simpler, the canon has not changed.

The movies always have been canon, the Clone Wars series was canon. From 2014 forwards, all material created by the storygroup is canon. The material that was never considered canon by "The Maker" himself is still non-canon. All they did was re-brand the EU as Legends and use Legends the same way George Lucas did. They are not bound by it but they are fully capable of taking pieces of it (Thrawn for instance) and canonizing them in a way that suits the story they wish to tell.

Sure, but my point was that while those "old" instances of laser/energy strings weapons might have existed in EU, they were not Canon.
The one used by Ezra is Canon, because everything in Rebels is considered Canon.

28 minutes ago, OddballE8 said:

Sure, but my point was that while those "old" instances of laser/energy strings weapons might have existed in EU, they were not Canon.
The one used by Ezra is Canon, because everything in Rebels is considered Canon.

TCW has been mentioned. You just oddly choose to ignore it too ;-)

31 minutes ago, OddballE8 said:

Eh, sure... but they're using the word Canon wrong.
If everything that is "canon" can be changed willy-nilly at the whims of one person, then it's not canon.

So no bible canon for you, because the establishment of that canon took lifespans and a few high ranking clericals to establish what stories to take and what stories stuck into secondary cannon aka apocrypha ;-)

Star Wars canon prior to the April 2014 reset was an odd thing.

Namely, while pretty much everything was canon, there were different tiers of canon. The movies sat at the top of the mountain (labeled as G-canon), followed by their novel and radio adaptations, then trickling on down. The only way something was not part of the old canon structure was if it was labeled as "Infinities" from the outset, or if it was directly contradicted by a higher source of canon. For instance, Boba Fett's origins prior to Attack of the Clones, which frankly was a convoluted mess due to stories told by different authors; I feel sorry for whoever got saddled with sorting that mess out to make it something reasonably coherent.

So under the old canon structure, the space whales from the 1983 Lando books were canon, but they simply fell into one of the lower tiers (C-canon I think it was called for books), and since not from one of the movies it's part of the Expanded Universe; a part that seemed to be largely forgotten, but still a part of the EU. Of course, with the April 2014 reset, pretty much everything that wasn't in the movies or the CGI Clone Wars series got dropped into the "Legends" bucket with the caveat that authors could cherry-pick from the old material to incorporate into the new canon. Case in point, Thrawn and now space whales.

It could be quite a headache at times, especially when dealing with earlier material from the time before Lucasfilm started taking a more active role in trying to keep things straight. So when in the wake of the Disney purchase and their interest in doing new films set after RotJ, the easiest solution was to do a reset and proceed with a more unified canon from that point on.

The simplest way I heard it phrased back then was, "It's all canon until and unless contradicted on screen."

I'm not a fan in all honesty that the war ended so quickly after Palpatine. I liked the idea of the Imperial Warlords and the war continuing, long and brutal. The Empire collapsing just a year after Endor doesn't sit well with me. I'm not sure how it would even be feasible.

2 hours ago, Galakk Fyyar said:

I'm not a fan in all honesty that the war ended so quickly after Palpatine. I liked the idea of the Imperial Warlords and the war continuing, long and brutal. The Empire collapsing just a year after Endor doesn't sit well with me. I'm not sure how it would even be feasible.

Sabotage. A high-ranking Imperial was charged, trained, and equipped by Palpatine with tearing down any remnants of the Empire should Palpatine be killed. Say what you will about ol' Sheev, but the spite was strong with that one.

8 hours ago, coyote6 said:

Sabotage. A high-ranking Imperial was charged, trained, and equipped by Palpatine with tearing down any remnants of the Empire should Palpatine be killed. Say what you will about ol' Sheev, but the spite was strong with that one.

Pretty much this. If you've got someone that's devoted to ripping out the wires of a major government and has the training to know where the wires are and how to most efficiently go about it, then a bureaucracy as vast as the Empire is going to crumble.

That said, I'll be surprised if it turns out that there weren't a few independent Imperial warlords that managed to hang around after Jakku, but without the vast supply networks of the Galactic Empire, they're going to be strapped for resources pretty quickly, especially if they stick with the general Imperial strategy of overwhelming your foes with superior numbers no matter what the cost in resources (ships or soldiers) might be.

9 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Pretty much this. If you've got someone that's devoted to ripping out the wires of a major government and has the training to know where the wires are and how to most efficiently go about it, then a bureaucracy as vast as the Empire is going to crumble.

That said, I'll be surprised if it turns out that there weren't a few independent Imperial warlords that managed to hang around after Jakku, but without the vast supply networks of the Galactic Empire, they're going to be strapped for resources pretty quickly, especially if they stick with the general Imperial strategy of overwhelming your foes with superior numbers no matter what the cost in resources (ships or soldiers) might be.

Is this not a little preposterous to assume that some random bloke with some training can destroy the whole empire basically on his own? I mean, when his name is not Thrawn naturally. ;-)

It like saying that the Trump team can destroy the united states for real and make our little friends to the west all speak rusky within the next 4 years. It is a little bit of a stretch, especially in that short amount of time and so many opposing forces.

17 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

Is this not a little preposterous to assume that some random bloke with some training can destroy the whole empire basically on his own?

Empires fell apart after a strong leader died or due to random happenstance all the time in reality. And they didn't span an entire galaxy.

Also remember that the Empire was set up to be a fascist government headed up by a dictator who held absolute power, and likely including various command authorizations that somebody with the proper codes and clearance could be used to seriously wrench up the works. Contradicting orders, sudden supply shortages as critical resources are diverted away from the front lines to "elsewhere" (aka Unknown Regions), playing up paranoia and distrust amidst the upper brass. If Palps wanted to ensure that there was a "scorched galaxy" policy in place, he's had 20 years to put it in place so that once he goes, the Empire as a unified entity not that far behind. About the only reason the Empire hung around as long as it did in Legends was the writers of the time couldn't come up with a truly original villain if they tried, and so kept falling back on the Empire long after it could be any sort of credible threat.

Now, the majority of real-world governments are designed with fail-safes and checks and balances to prevent one person from toppling the whole system in a short span of time. But if you're expecting reality in a franchise with quantifiable psychic powers and has technology that routinely breaks the laws of physics into tiny pieces... well, if any franchise ever operated on "rule of cool," it'd be Star Wars, with realistic approaches being punted out the nearest airlock.

Just now, Benjan Meruna said:

Real life Empires fell apart after a strong leader died with a hell of a lot less guidance than this.

Nothing wrong with falling apart, but they always broke into segments which were in control by those who filled the power vacuum quickly. The EU had the empire fall super quickly as well into dozens of different factions. Here they seem just all join their enemies, you know, those guys with grudges against them, those guys you would expected to execute thousands of imperial leaders for their crimes.

Now, the majority of real-world governments are designed with fail-safes and checks and balances to prevent one person from toppling the whole system in a short span of time.

100% agreed. And we see Palpatine spent his lifetime carefully ripping apart and/or bypassing those checks to create the Empire. I somehow doubt he put any of them back in out of the graciousness of his heart, and as previously noted it's perfectly in character for him to set up agents to deliberately dismantle the Empire in the case of him no longer getting to play with it.

3 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

but they always broke into segments which were in control by those who filled the power vacuum quickly.

Exactly like the Rebels did?

2 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

100% agreed. And we see Palpatine spent his lifetime carefully ripping apart and/or bypassing those checks to create the Empire. I somehow doubt he put any of them back in out of the graciousness of his heart, and as previously noted it's perfectly in character for him to set up agents to deliberately dismantle the Empire in the case of him no longer getting to play with it.

Exactly like the Rebels did?

How likely it is that one minor power eats up a super power after big leader is gone when all those henchmen see the chance to become the big guy or risk execution by rebel hands.

5 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

How likely it is that one minor power eats up a super power after big leader is gone when all those henchmen see the chance to become the big guy or risk execution by rebel hands.

By beating its standing forces into the ground twice in quick succession, by the populace suddenly seeing the chance to overthrow their oppressors of the last 20 years, and by that Empire lacking the means to respond to any of this because all of supply lines, chains of command, and general cohesion in the ranks is being actively sabotaged by an agent with perfect insider knowledge of the system.

Again, real life empires have fallen far harder for less. When the Western Roman Empire fell, did it become a bunch of roman factions warring with each other? No, it basically completely vanished.

1 hour ago, Benjan Meruna said:

No, it basically completely vanished.

From the last westrom emperor to the end of the state ... we are taking here about a time span of roughly 75 years.

Warlord and foreign powers taking control of most of the former empire included, reigning first under nominal control of the empire and declaring independence later.

The area of controlled territory reduced before the end of the emperors mostly to Italy.

Your example might be one of the worst possible as the fall of westrom is a slow, painful process over centuries of decline and internal struggle.

28 minutes ago, SEApocalypse said:

From the last westrom emperor to the end of the state ... we are taking here about a time span of roughly 75 years.

Warlord and foreign powers taking control of most of the former empire included, reigning first under nominal control of the empire and declaring independence later.

The area of controlled territory reduced before the end of the emperors mostly to Italy.

Your example might be one of the worst possible as the fall of westrom is a slow, painful process over centuries of decline and internal struggle.

http://www.ushistory.org/civ/6f.asp

Quote

In 476 C.E. Romulus, the last of the Roman emperors in the west, was overthrown by the Germanic leader Odoacer, who became the first Barbarian to rule in Rome. The order that the Roman Empire had brought to western Europe for 1000 years was no more

The weakening that the Roman Empire had in the years prior to the last Emperor has parallels to the decline the Galactic Empire was facing from years of Rebel resistance. The main difference is that instead of the lines of supply and communication and corruption taking decades to set it, it was all enacted in a much shorter timespan on purpose by a hostile agent with the knowledge, power, and will to do so.

Your view of the roman empire is fascinating, but not worthwhile to discuss.

Just something for the lols:

By 470, Odoacer had become an officer in what remained of the Roman Army. Although Jordanes writes of Odoacer as invading Italy "as leader of the Sciri, the Heruli and allies of various races", ^[8] modern writers describe him as being part of the Roman military establishment, based on John of Antioch 's statement that Odoacer was on the side of Ricimer at the beginning of his battle with the emperor Anthemius in 472. ^[19] Procopius goes as far as describing him as one of the Emperor's bodyguards. ^[20]

So if we're talking about the fall of the Roman Empire, I'd like to think that we should be looking at the rise of the Byzantine Empire too. Wouldn't that be what was called the Imperial Remnant in the Legends?

24 minutes ago, Vestij Jai Galaar said:

So if we're talking about the fall of the Roman Empire, I'd like to think that we should be looking at the rise of the Byzantine Empire too. Wouldn't that be what was called the Imperial Remnant in the Legends?

That's trickier to compare, because the split of the Roman Empire was a decision taken because it was simply too large to govern effectively at that point. It would have been like Palpatine deciding to just cut the Outer Rim loose because it was more trouble than it was worth. In Legends, the Remnant was more a series of successor states that eventually all coalesced for mutual protection. In canon, most of those successor states (The Penstar Alignment, Zsinj's Warlord Kingdom, etc) never had a chance to exist because the infrastructure and organization that made them possible was actively sabotaged by order of Palpatine.

21 hours ago, OddballE8 said:

Eh, sure... but they're using the word Canon wrong.
If everything that is "canon" can be changed willy-nilly at the whims of one person, then it's not canon.

Their use of the word Canon referred to everything considered an official part of the Star Wars history. This fits with the actual definition of the word, as it pertains to literature, as well:

Quote

3 [Middle English, from Late Latin, from Latin, standard]

a : an authoritative list of books accepted as Holy Scripture

b : the authentic works of a writer the Chaucer canon

c : a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works the canon of great literature

On 3/13/2017 at 7:18 AM, SEApocalypse said:

Is this not a little preposterous to assume that some random bloke with some training can destroy the whole empire basically on his own?

Except that in the context of the story, this isn't some "random bloke" as you put it. This was someone who's specific job was to tear the entire system down in the event of Palpatine's death, looking to cause as much mayhem, chaos, and destruction as possible. He was told where all the cracks were in the system and how to exploit them for maximum destructive results.

Also recall that Imperial personnel were generally conditioned to obey orders, even if they didn't make a lot of sense at the time. Prime example is when Piett is asked by a junior officer about why the Star Destroyers aren't engaging the Rebel Fleet at Endor, and Piett replies, "no, we're just to keep them from escaping. These orders come from the Emperor himself, he's got something special planned for them." There's zero indication Piett had any idea that the second Death Star was operational and was going to be picking off Rebel capital ships, yet he obeyed the orders he was given without question.

So if various Imperial officers are given authenticated orders from high enough up the chain of command to do something that's ultimately detrimental to the Empire's long-term survival, the vast majority of them are going to follow the orders and probably never question what the rationale of those orders were. So if you've got someone with authenticated high command status giving orders that are detrimental to the Empire's prolonged existence to a military that's been conditioned to obey without question, that's a prime recipe for a system to come crashing down, especially when the Empire is also still fighting a battle against the Rebel Alliance/New Republic military forces, who in comparison are a far more cohesive force given the folks in charge on the Rebels' side aren't actively trying to sabotage the whole thing.

Especially when this agent has all the failsafe codes, backdoor passwords and other Macguffins handed to him by the spider in the center of the web.

(Geeze - speaking of MacGuffins, wouldn't a Hitchcock-like pursuit of the Emperor's clandestine nuclear football make a epic campaign. . . .)

1 hour ago, Desslok said:

Especially when this agent has all the failsafe codes, backdoor passwords and other Macguffins handed to him by the spider in the center of the web.

(Geeze - speaking of MacGuffins, wouldn't a Hitchcock-like pursuit of the Emperor's clandestine nuclear football make a epic campaign. . . .)

Most definitely, especially an Imperial campaign. The players are all Intelligence operatives who get wind of Rax's purpose and the macguffin he has, and embark on a desperate attempt to save the Empire (save the dream...) before it's all too late. It could lead to a Cold War-esque standoff between the newly formed Republic and the remains of the Galactic Empire, one frantically building their forces, the other REbuilding in an arms race that is fated to boil over and engulf the galaxy in war once more...