That's quite detailed, thank you. It's almost as if we should've had at least some of this info in the movie. Oh well.

I'm really keen on eventually playing a campaign in that setting. The pre Phantom Menace feel, combined with a cold war/ interwar theme is really cool and I can't wait to learn more about it.

The bulk of what Desslok posted was stuff I was easily able to infer from just the film without needing it spoon-fed to me, that the Resistance was a resource-strapped small-time organization much akin to the Rebellion in ANH, and was effectively a proxy agency used by the New Republic, in effect being a "deniable asset" so that the New Republic in general could say "we're not doing anything" even though the First Order is pretty blatantly looking to start the war back up.

As narmy as it was, Hux's speech pretty much confirms that the First Order is geared up for war, and the destruction of the Hosnian system was their outright declaration of war on the New Republic.

The bulk of what Desslok posted was stuff I was easily able to infer from just the film without needing it spoon-fed to me, that the Resistance was a resource-strapped small-time organization much akin to the Rebellion in ANH, and was effectively a proxy agency used by the New Republic, in effect being a "deniable asset" so that the New Republic in general could say "we're not doing anything" even though the First Order is pretty blatantly looking to start the war back up.

As narmy as it was, Hux's speech pretty much confirms that the First Order is geared up for war, and the destruction of the Hosnian system was their outright declaration of war on the New Republic.

I do like mise en scène too, don't get me wrong. Mise en scène is better than pure exposition 99% of the time. I like Jakku with the crashed Star Destroyer and the AT-AT, implying there was a huge battle on this world. Yes I understood with the lack of capital ships, or just lack of ships, that the Resistance was strained on resources ("We'll hit them with everything we have", followed by a shot of two x-wing squadrons, was more telling than any exposition). And yes I did understand General Hux's speech (that I thought was great). I'm not saying I don't understand the First Order's motives, or that I don't understand the Resistance's situation. I say that the Galactic Concordance treaty is not even mentioned once, not even in the crawl. I say that the Republic's inaction is never explained. I say that the nature of the First Order is never explained, nor is the Resistance's. Heck, we don't even learn the name of the planet the First Order is shooting with the Starkiller weapon. I was convinced it was Coruscant during my first viewing, because Hux said "we'll hit the Republic's heart and its navy", and we never got any indication that the new seat of power was Hosnian Prime. And those are problems, especially since that new setting is so interesting to me and I would've liked to see more of it in the movie.

They do reference in the movie that the Hosnian system was destroyed, and in Hux's speech before Starkiller fires he calls out that their attack will deal a crippling blow to the New Republic.

It doesn't take a whole lot to take those elements and reach the conclusion that the First Order used a weapon whose beam could traverse multiple star systems to cripple if not obliterate the New Republic's seat of power with their opening salvo, putting the New Republic on an extremely defensive footing for the upcoming war.

Or perhaps I'm simply willing to put some individual thought into these things rather than expect to have the entire thing spoon-fed to me like some posters around here apparently wanted to have happen during the film itself.

I still contend the film stands well enough on its own without excess background material of the sort that dragged down the prequels (there's a reason that The Phantom Menace is critically panned and noted as the weakest film in the entire franchise), and a world-wide box office of over 1.6 billion thus far shows that there's enough other people that feel exactly the same way, that TFA does an outstanding job of standing on its own merits. For the folks that want all sorts of extra background material, the resources are out there, so it's not like some franchises where people are simply left guessing.

It doesn't take a whole lot to take those elements and reach the conclusion that the First Order used a weapon whose beam could traverse multiple star systems to cripple if not obliterate the New Republic's seat of power with their opening salvo, putting the New Republic on an extremely defensive footing for the upcoming war.

Or perhaps I'm simply willing to put some individual thought into these things rather than expect to have the entire thing spoon-fed to me like some posters around here apparently wanted to have happen during the film itself.

I still contend the film stands well enough on its own without excess background material of the sort that dragged down the prequels (there's a reason that The Phantom Menace is critically panned and noted as the weakest film in the entire franchise), and a world-wide box office of over 1.6 billion thus far shows that there's enough other people that feel exactly the same way, that TFA does an outstanding job of standing on its own merits. For the folks that want all sorts of extra background material, the resources are out there, so it's not like some franchises where people are simply left guessing.

Did you actually read my answer or you just assumed whatever you wanted? I literally just told you I understood the First Order's objective and motives. What I didn't understand from the movie itself is what it is exactly as a geopolitical entity. Because the movie doesn't tell you, and doesn't give you any clues to answer that question. Most viewers won't care, of course, but most viewers only look for entertainment in movies while I look for more. I don't think box office numbers are a great indication of a movie's quality. After all, the Fast and Furious movies always do very well.

But hey, agree to disagree. We both liked the movie well enough I'm sure. Here is a difference in philosophy. You like to shoot in the dark, while I like to see if I hit my mark. I don't think whichever is inherently better than the other.

Argumentum ad populum -- "Jersey Shore got good ratings and lasted several seasons, therefore it was high-quality television".

Hey, you're the one that said "well they don't explain any of that in the movie," when in fact they actually do provide the information that people claim is missing. The trick is you have to be willing to put a little thought into as opposed to having the answers completely spoon-fed to you.

Is it in extensive detail? No, but for the sake of the plot of the film, it doesn't need to be. The prequels tried to give a lot of extensive detail about why things were happening, and they got critically panned by professional movie critics for being rather plodding in their plot. In contrast, TFA's gotten overwhelmingly positive reviews from professional movie critics, so again JJ Abrams did something right; namely recreating the heart and spirit that made the original films so enjoyable from start to finish instead of the plodding pace we had to endure with the prequels just to get the flashy lightsaber fights.

The movie's not meant to lay out a foundation for an RPG campaign any more than the original films were. As I've said in other places, if you look at the the first Star Wars film and none of the supporting material that's come out since, it's just as bare-bones on the setting as TFA is. ANH provides just enough backstory for the story being told, and very little else, which is precisely what TFA does. Going strictly by what we see on film for ANH, there's only a handful of confirmed planets in the galaxy, and one of them gets blown up, Tatooine really only has one major settlement (Mos Eisley) and a lesser one (Anchorhead), we don't know what any of the species are called aside from Chewbacca, who himself is just an overgrown monkey with a temper, and Jabba's really nothing of consequence beyond an impetus for Han to take the job to ferry our protagonist and his mentor to the next plot point in their adventure. All that "rich background details" that fans take for granted didn't exist until West End Games got the ball rolling on creating what became the Expanded Universe, filling in the huge quantity of blank spaces that existed even after Return of the Jedi.

Argumentum ad populum -- "Jersey Shore got good ratings and lasted several seasons, therefore it was high-quality television".

How about adding some actual context instead of just making a strawman argument?

Jersey Shore was dirt cheap to produce, something true of the vast majority of reality TV shows , and MTV's bar for "good ratings" is pretty **** low compared to most other networks. So as long as it made any sort of profit from ad revenue and related merchandise (not hard to do when you don't have to pay for actual actors or writers), it'd count as "successful," to say nothing of it only having "half-seasons" for each year instead of the full 22 episodes that a traditional US TV season would have. Had it been on one of the Big 3 networks (CBS, ABC, or NBC), it most likely would have been deep-sixed as unsuccessful before the first season had ended.

As for The Force Awakens, a 93% positive review from professional critics and 90% positive review from random users on Rotten Tomatoes (a site whose entire purpose is to collect reviews of films and use them to determine from those reviews the general quality of a film) is pretty clear indication of the film's quality. That 's an indicator that it's a high-quality product.

Hey, you're the one that said "well they don't explain any of that in the movie," when in fact they actually do provide the information that people claim is missing. The trick is you have to be willing to put a little thought into as opposed to having the answers completely spoon-fed to you.

I find it interesting how you feel it necessary to insult people who won't speculate (or take speculation as truth) as "wanting to be spoon fed".

Argumentum ad populum -- "Jersey Shore got good ratings and lasted several seasons, therefore it was high-quality television".

How about adding some actual context instead of just making a strawman argument?

Jersey Shore was dirt cheap to produce, something true of the vast majority of reality TV shows , and MTV's bar for "good ratings" is pretty **** low compared to most other networks. So as long as it made any sort of profit from ad revenue and related merchandise (not hard to do when you don't have to pay for actual actors or writers), it'd count as "successful," to say nothing of it only having "half-seasons" for each year instead of the full 22 episodes that a traditional US TV season would have. Had it been on one of the Big 3 networks (CBS, ABC, or NBC), it most likely would have been deep-sixed as unsuccessful before the first season had ended.

As for The Force Awakens, a 93% positive review from professional critics and 90% positive review from random users on Rotten Tomatoes (a site whose entire purpose is to collect reviews of films and use them to determine from those reviews the general quality of a film) is pretty clear indication of the film's quality. That 's an indicator that it's a high-quality product.

Again, argument by popularity, with argument by profit thrown in for good measure.

I'm throwing a flag on this play.

Again, argument by popularity, with argument by profit thrown in for good measure.

I'm throwing a flag on this play.

Again, argument by popularity, with argument by profit thrown in for good measure.

Huh?

What he did wasn't "proving it", it was doubling-down on the same fallacy . Continuing to argue that something is good because it is popular isn't a refutation of having one's original argument by popularity pointed out.

"Moving the goalposts" would be demanding proof that the movie was popular, and after stats were posted showing it to be popular by a reasonable measure, coming up with a definition of "popular" that the movie would fail to meet.

But, you posted a stupid meme, so I guess that makes you "right".

I have no problem with world building with broad brushstrokes. The best movie I saw all year was Fury Road, and Frank Miller did a tremendous amount of story telling and world building with a handful of very subtle clues - to the point where if you weren't paying attention, you'd complain that there's no story and just a bunch of action scenes strung together.

That said, I firmly agree that the worldbuilding in Star Wars was very, very messy. There's enough there that I could make my leaps of faith - but that's one of JJ's huge failings as a story teller. His stuff looks amazing in the moment, but it doesn't stand up very well after the fact. And that's true with Lost, Star Trek, Mission Impossible - and Star Wars.

(Also, using Rotten Tomatoes as a barometer of good movies is a terrible metric. Sharknado has an 82% fresh rating,)

(Also, using Rotten Tomatoes as a barometer of good movies is a terrible metric. Sharknado has an 82% fresh rating,)

They also gave District 9 a 90%, which is complete crap. Should've been around a 14% if you ask me.

The Force Awakens was pretty **** good though. Wished there was more worldbuilding, but they did a satisfactory job in that regard for the scope of the story that they told. I'd give it an 87%.

Desslok, your comparison with Fury Road is on point, I'd say, as both movies try to convey their worldbuilding elements in a similar fashion. One succeeds, and is a great movie, the other one fails, and is a 7/10. Thing is, you could say that A New Hope had very little worldbuilding, like Donovan says, and you'd be right in saying so, but I don't think it's a fair comparison with Force Awakens. The geopolitical situation in A new Hope is way simpler than the one in Force Awakens. In ANH you have a Galactic Empire, and Rebels fighting it in secret. That's a simple situation. In FA, though, they speak of a Resistance, and a First Order. The thing Abrams wants you to do is the easy, yet false reasoning of Resistance=Rebels (X-wing, similar uniforms) and First Order=Empire (stormtroopers, uniforms, big planet wrecking weapon). But that's not true, because the wording isn't the same. Resistance implies fighting against the established power or against a foreign invader in an occupied country. Problem is, we know the New Republic is in power. Is the Resistance fighting against the Republic? No, because some members of the Republic's government are secretly supporting the Resistance. Is the Resistance fighting the First Order? But why? It's not occupying the Republic, as far as we know. And they're not the established power, because the New Republic is, or at least there's no indication of it. You're left with more questions than answers, because the movie never even tries to explain that wording.

A similar thing can be said for the First Order. The only thing we know of them is that they "rose from the ashes of the imperial remnants". But what are they, exactly? It's been 30 years since the Battle of Endor, there's no way for us to know what happened to the Empire during that time. The Jakku landscape hints that the Empire continued to fight, but eventually lost. Then what is left of the Empire, for the First Order to rise again? Where are they? Who are they? The name could imply a political party, which could justify a resistance movement I guess, but then they seem to refer to the Republic as a foreign enemy, which would imply that the First Order is in fact separate. So who are they? Where are they? Why do they have those resources at their disposition? And why is a "resistance movement" from another political entity trying to fight them?

Abrams tried to go with an interwar themed movie, and that's amazing, of course. But an interwar situation is way more complex on a diplomatic and geopolitical level than a rebellion against a galaxy-spanning empire, and as such deserved more explanation.

Rise! The powers of Necroposting command you!

Here, a brief synopsis of everything that's happened after the fall of the Empire, at least according to Chuck Wendig’s Aftermath. Here's some choice tidbits:

* Palpatines philosophy was basically the opposite of “the captain goes down with the ship.” It was more “if the captain goes down, make sure the ship and everyone on it is blown to pieces for letting the captain die.” Palpatine gave Aftermath’s main Imperial antagonist Gallius Rax the “blowing the Empire to pieces” job. (Also, definitely read this book to get Palpatine’s views on chess.

* Jakku was also one of several worlds that the Emperor established “Observatories” on. An observatory held any number of things the Emperor thought needed to be hoarded: Sith artifacts, weapons, prisons, etc. They all have replicas of the Emperor’s flagship and sentinel robots programmed to act like the Emperor and have his face projected on them, which sounds incredibly creepy. Jakku’s Observatory was built as part of Palpatine’s “in the event of my death” plan.

* It turns out that having the two biggest power centers in the galaxy focused on each other is a good thing for crime syndicates. So good for them that they do not want the war to end. To that end, the Black Sun crime syndicate—one of the things invented in the old Expanded Universe that’s made it back into canon in a big way—and the Red Key Raiders (a crime syndicate out of Tatooine) actually work together to manipulate the New Republic into dragging out the war.

* The New Republic isn’t the only group to spring forth after the Empire’s fall. Mon Mothma names other independent groups springing up across the galaxy in the power vacuum the Empire is leaving: The New Separatist Union (presumably a callback to the Separatists of the Clone Wars), the Confederacy of Corporate Systems, and the Sovereign Latitudes (the name pirates have given to their attempt at self-governance).

On 09/09/2015 at 9:45 PM, Desslok said:

I would have the other day - but it was 17 freakin bucks! I'll get mine from the Library instead. But as far as kids books go, it would seem that occasionally you get some good ones. The ones with Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon and Obi-wan and Anakin were not great literature, but they were reasonably solid reads. I didn't feel unclean reading them like I did Tribe of the Sith or the one were Jacen flips his lid.

Jacen - Kylo Ren, anyone?

On 09/12/2015 at 6:48 PM, dxanders said:

WRONG! Yoda is Vader's dad.

Add that to my thread about fan canon. I might use that topic as the base for a supplement of some sort...

Oh god, Desslok. Don't mention Sharknado.

On 9.9.2015 at 11:25 PM, CaptainRaspberry said:

I'm pumped about the new canon now more than ever. I was nervous before that whatever happened between Jedi and Awakens would be boring, and I wouldn't want to run a game in it. But a galactic cold war? Proxy conflicts? Factionalization in both the Empire and the New Republic? Sign me up.

You have all that in the EU too. ;-)

On 2/24/2017 at 7:47 PM, SEApocalypse said:

You have all that in the EU too. ;-)

Yes, but in my opinion it became bogged down and bloated. Either LFL or the individual writers didn't feel comfortable backing away from the Alliance vs. Empire and Jedi vs. Sith conflicts, so it felt repetitive and predictable. Even Legacy , which was my favorite era, was just a rehash of those two plots. They came closest to shaking everything up with NJO, but they didn't go far enough (probably because they listened to the small but vocal group of fans who wanted Star Wars to stay the same) and as a result failed to stick the landing. The result? The next series of books was about Jedi vs. Sith and Alliance vs. Empire, in practice if not in name.

With the new canon, they made it pretty clear that, as far as the greater galaxy was concerned, the Empire died out. Everything indicates the Empire only lasted a few years after the Galactic Concordance before it completely broke down into independent groups and systems, and unlike its EU counterpart, the New Republic isn't a monolithic beast. There are other political powers, such as the ones described by Desslok, and plenty of room to make up your own for your games.

Having parts of the Empire survive in the Unknown Regions has two fun aspects: first, it takes that "Nazis fleeing to Argentina" thing to a more dramatically satisfying level. They're a hidden threat I can allude to, creating dramatic tension with my players - they know about the First Order, after all, but their characters have no reason to suspect its existence. If they do become convinced some part of the Empire survived, they'll be considered crackpots and are more likely to get pulled into General Organa's Resistance.

Second, as of The Force Awakens , it flips the New Republic and First Order roles relative to their progenitors. Now the First Order is the small group of rebels striking from their hidden base, scoring their first victory against the massive New Republic. Leia Organa has become General Tagge, arguing that the First Order is a real threat while everyone else in the room waves her off, believing their power is secure until they're blown up by the plucky (but evil) underdogs. That's an interesting place for me to be, both as a player and as the GM. It's rich in potential irony.

Finally, part of the reason I like it so much? The slate's been wiped clean. They're slowly building up the new canon with comics and novels and TV shows, but they seem to be doing it with a more unified vision than before. As far as I know, LFL didn't have a story group until the Disney acquisition; they had the keeper of the holocron, but he didn't dictate what stories were going to be told, only how the stories that got told fit in with each other.

I would have been happy to keep the EU, but only if the new films advanced the story to 200 years in the future, or 500, or 1,000 - whatever would have been necessary to make the slate clean again, so we could get new stories without getting bogged down by the old. I happily reach into the EU for inspiration when it comes to my games, but it's more fun to remix ideas like the Imperial Knights or Jaxxon the Space Rabbit rather than slavishly hold to them. The new canon gives me the freedom to do so.

Took the new EU to bring everything bull about the back within 3 years, well everything but the Vong.

(And don't get me wrong, with Star Wars Hyperdrive speeds invading the neighbour galaxy should be trivial and logistically feasible, it just the Vong who stink)

Furthermore your assumptions are silly and dead wrong. The first order is anything but the small group of rebels, they have amazing founding and support within the republic is is basically back to the state it was before the empire, which individual senators working for personal benefits and a central conflict in the senate about more or less central power, about having the senate as leaders of the galaxy of separating the real power from the senate. Meanwhile the restiance is down to that small underdog without much founding and about 20 years behind in technology, using still the first new republican designs while the first order is using Kyber-weapons even on their star destroyers and top of the line TIE-Fighters.

So I there is a lot of wishful thinking in your post. You seem to prefer the unknown horrors of the new eu and disney canon over the well known horrors of the legends canon. Something which I can understand very well.

23 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

new EU to bring everything bull about the back within 3 years, well everything but the Vong.

Huh?

Legends had:

• Vong
• Killik
• Luke's hand getting stolen and a mentally impaired clone called Luuke made from it
• A slightly villainous red-haired mary sue whose only defining purpose in the story was to be redeemed by the hero, marry him, have his kids, then die tragically (she wasn't bad when Zahn handled her, but her potential was squandered pretty quickly after that)
• "Oh look, the Emperor is back! With clones!"
• "Oh look, the Emperor is back, just kidding it's only a scam by Royal Guardsmen."
• Pretty much everything to do with Jedi Prince
• The aforementioned bait-and-switch with NJO
• Coran "I really wish I was Kyle Katarn" Horn
• Daala, Queen of screwing up over and over and over again
• Traviss mandowankery
• Darksaber. No, not the slightly outlandish Mando lightsaber, the Hutt Death Star. No, that's not a joke. Welcome to Legends. Oh, and they killed poor Crix Madine in this one.

And that's just off the top of my head. Meanwhile, the list of silly things I've seen in nu-canon is

• helicopter lightsabers

So far, the wipe has been a MASSIVE positive for Star Wars. The fact that they're bringing back the few gems like Thrawn only enhances this in my eyes.

5 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

• Darksaber. No, not the slightly outlandish Mando lightsaber, the Hutt Death Star. No, that's not a joke. Welcome to Legends. Oh, and they killed poor Crix Madine in this one.

I'm gonna admit...I kinda liked the thinking behind this concept:

"Bah, we don't need a whole moon-sized battle station. We just need the weapon, an engine, and a bridge/command station. And let's farm construction out to the lowest bidder."

Just now, Nytwyng said:

I'm gonna admit...I kinda liked the thinking behind this concept:

"Bah, we don't need a whole moon-sized battle station. We just need the weapon, an engine, and a bridge/command station. And let's farm construction out to the lowest bidder."

Like a lot of Legends, there's a good idea hidden somewhere in the horrid execution. Which is again why I'm glad nuCanon has been pretty good about looking for the diamonds in the rough. The main thing about Darksaber imo is that the Hutts were a terrible choice of villain for the arc AND let's face it, it's Yet Another Superweapon.

Speaking of, add

• Kyp "Easily Forgiven Hitler" Durron
• Suncrusher and every other silly Superweapon of the Week

to the list.

43 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Like a lot of Legends, there's a good idea hidden somewhere in the horrid execution. Which is again why I'm glad nuCanon has been pretty good about looking for the diamonds in the rough. The main thing about Darksaber imo is that the Hutts were a terrible choice of villain for the arc AND let's face it, it's Yet Another Superweapon.

Speaking of, add

• Kyp "Easily Forgiven Hitler" Durron
• Suncrusher and every other silly Superweapon of the Week

to the list.

Different strokes, and all, but I think the idea that I liked about it works best if it's the Hutts - trying to carry their big stick, but spend as little on it as possible.

In reading the (now) Legends books, I felt Anderson was better when working on a standalone book like Darksaber than with a trilogy (like the Jedi Academy Trilogy). Of course, there were better writers than him involved in trilogies and standalones both. But, I didn't mind him terribly.

On the other hand, Legends had several decades to introduce dumb stuff, whereas nucanon has only existed for a a fraction of that. All in good time, as they say.

My biggest distaste with nucanon, though, is how the authors (or whoever is in charge of making the big decisions) have a hard-on for mass, planetary annihilation/murder. A New Hope introduced us to the Death Star, and showed how awful of a thing it is with the destruction of Alderaan. Return of the Jedi reintroduced us to the Death Star, and the audience knew immediately how terrible it was, and how pressing it was to see the thing destroyed. (Rogue One did a pretty good job of showing how terrible it really is.) And then the writers/director of The Force Awakens introduce Starkiller Base, which is many times worse, as if they're trying to one-up the original horribleness of it somehow. Then add on all the genocide they put into the books.

To me, it's less bad or lousy storytelling and more of a bizarre, terrifying fetish on the author(s)'(s) part, which I want nothing to do with, and it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. For all their faults, and all of his quirks as a director, at least George Lucas never introduced another superweapon in the Prequels.

"But it's not Star Wars without a planet-killing superweapon!"

It's the sort of inane fanboyism, that nostalgia for the experience they had as kids, that leads people who take over a property to ape the superficial elements of the older material.

See also, "But the Spiderman I read about as a kid wasn't married, so Spiderman shouldn't ever be married! Let's have him make a deal with not-Satan to undo it all!"