1 hour ago, Desslok said:

Especially when this agent has all the failsafe codes, backdoor passwords and other Macguffins handed to him by the spider in the center of the web.

(Geeze - speaking of MacGuffins, wouldn't a Hitchcock-like pursuit of the Emperor's clandestine nuclear football make a epic campaign. . . .)

11 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Most definitely, especially an Imperial campaign. The players are all Intelligence operatives who get wind of Rax's purpose and the macguffin he has, and embark on a desperate attempt to save the Empire (save the dream...) before it's all too late. It could lead to a Cold War-esque standoff between the newly formed Republic and the remains of the Galactic Empire, one frantically building their forces, the other REbuilding in an arms race that is fated to boil over and engulf the galaxy in war once more...

And in a matter of moments and two posts, we have the seed for a better plot than TFA.

24 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:

And in a matter of moments and two posts, we have the seed for a better plot than TFA.

A different one, but not necessarily better . TFA is basically the Rebel side of that story where they want the information to finish off the Empire before it can recover. That's as valid and interesting a plot as any, and leads to the future where you're not facing the Empire, but rather its shadowy successor. And honestly, it's one I'm more interested in being told.

3 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

A different one, but not necessarily better . TFA is basically the Rebel side of that story where they want the information to finish off the Empire before it can recover. That's as valid and interesting a plot as any, and leads to a situation where you're not facing the Empire, but rather its shadowy successor. And honestly, it's one I'm more interested in being told.

TFA was a bad retelling of ANH, designed not as a coherent story, but as a pusher of nostalgia buttons.

19 minutes ago, MaxKilljoy said:

TFA was a bad retelling of ANH, designed not as a coherent story, but as a pusher of nostalgia buttons.

Well, that's a nice opinion you have there.

38 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Most definitely, especially an Imperial campaign. The players are all Intelligence operatives who get wind of Rax's purpose and the macguffin he has, and embark on a desperate attempt to save the Empire (save the dream...) before it's all too late. It could lead to a Cold War-esque standoff between the newly formed Republic and the remains of the Galactic Empire, one frantically building their forces, the other REbuilding in an arms race that is fated to boil over and engulf the galaxy in war once more...

It would almost have to be a Imperial campaign. That or either the GM would have to be willing to go off way book (as far as canon goes) and do serious damage to the Empire or that the players would have to accept a lose condition, that the Macguffin gets away. They may not be able to bring the whole Empire down before Palpatine made the information obsolete, but they could take a chunk out of it.

Stupid forum software!

30 minutes ago, Desslok said:

It would almost have to be a Imperial campaign. That or either the GM would have to be willing to go off way book (as far as canon goes)

I think that's kind of my default assumption, honestly. I just don't generally see the point of running a game where there are certain hard-coded "This HAS to happen" kind of stuff.

Heck, you could even make this a shared campaign with a Rebel team and an Imperial team (for those who enjoy that sort of thing, I was never any good at it) both vying for control of the macguffin. The default "canon" scenario would be that neither team succeeds and the Empire is effectively dismantled, but enough remnants escape to form the First Order we see in TFA. An Imperial Win would lead to a scenario closer to Legends (without the Reborn Emperor bull), and a Rebel Win would effectively place the scattered Imperial Loyalists into the same situation the Rebels were in pre-Yavin.

Edit: I JUST realized you were talking about having the football pre-Endor. Whoops!

35 minutes ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Well, that's a nice opinion you have there.

http://kotaku.com/the-weaponised-nostalgia-of-star-wars-the-force-awaken-1743413723

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/21/10445616/star-wars-hollywood-nostalgia-problem

http://www.vox.com/2015/12/17/10383876/star-wars-episode-vii-the-force-awakens-review

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2015/12/star-wars-the-force-awakens-disappointment-debate-nostalgia/421332/

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/star-war-the-force-awakens-is-a-nostalgia-bomb-with-a-women-and-people-of-color-leading-the-way

8 hours ago, Benjan Meruna said:

Most definitely, especially an Imperial campaign. The players are all Intelligence operatives who get wind of Rax's purpose and the macguffin he has, and embark on a desperate attempt to save the Empire (save the dream...) before it's all too late. It could lead to a Cold War-esque standoff between the newly formed Republic and the remains of the Galactic Empire, one frantically building their forces, the other REbuilding in an arms race that is fated to boil over and engulf the galaxy in war once more...

It's the post-Endor era that tends to be the most interesting setting for Imperial campaigns, and one of the more interesting ones for campaigns in general. Imperial campaigns can still be intriguing before Endor, but up until then the Empire had such a conventional advantage over the Rebellion that getting into an open fight was a pretty dumb idea. You wouldn't be hurting for resources, reinforcements, or war material. You'd have a big advantage compared to the more supply-struggling Rebel side of the campaign. Post-Endor is what flips that upside down: suddenly you have Warlords vying for power and splitting the Empire apart, a stronger Rebellion, and a situation that becomes more and more dire for an Imperial party. It's a shame that all of that got retconned, but it does mean that if you choose to play by the new canon you can take some liberties in filling in the gaps left behind, liberties that can still lead to exciting stories no matter which side of the conflict your party falls under, if they even choose a side at all.

39 minutes ago, Galakk Fyyar said:

It's the post-Endor era that tends to be the most interesting setting for Imperial campaigns, and one of the more interesting ones for campaigns in general. Imperial campaigns can still be intriguing before Endor, but up until then the Empire had such a conventional advantage over the Rebellion that getting into an open fight was a pretty dumb idea. You wouldn't be hurting for resources, reinforcements, or war material. You'd have a big advantage compared to the more supply-struggling Rebel side of the campaign. Post-Endor is what flips that upside down: suddenly you have Warlords vying for power and splitting the Empire apart, a stronger Rebellion, and a situation that becomes more and more dire for an Imperial party. It's a shame that all of that got retconned, but it does mean that if you choose to play by the new canon you can take some liberties in filling in the gaps left behind, liberties that can still lead to exciting stories no matter which side of the conflict your party falls under, if they even choose a side at all.

There's a few ways to run an Imperial campaign pre-Endor, but it's certainly a lot easier post! Also, love the forum name, been a long time since I played that game...

18 hours ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Also recall that Imperial personnel were generally conditioned to obey orders, even if they didn't make a lot of sense at the time. Prime example is when Piett is asked by a junior officer about why the Star Destroyers aren't engaging the Rebel Fleet at Endor, and Piett replies, "no, we're just to keep them from escaping. These orders come from the Emperor himself, he's got something special planned for them." There's zero indication Piett had any idea that the second Death Star was operational and was going to be picking off Rebel capital ships, yet he obeyed the orders he was given without question.

That general conditioning you mention is called being in the military. Those fancy uniforms come with the side effect of having to follow orders that don't always make sense.

23 minutes ago, Jon D said:

That general conditioning you mention is called being in the military. Those fancy uniforms come with the side effect of having to follow orders that don't always make sense.

That there are limits to that and those depends on the specific military, the american discipline in following orders to the letter is legendary among other armies, and not with a positive spin. For sure exaggerated too.

One of the stories about american soldiers you get told is for example: You tell an american soldier to get you a tool from storage room 27, shelf B 26 and if it is not there he will come back to you, report that the tool was not there and ask for a new order. One of ours you just tell to get that **** tool and he will look for it, if it is not where it was supposed to be. The moral of those stories was always, follow intent of an order, but don't follow them beyond reason. And technical both versions follow the order, one just so much to the letter that it becomes basically sabotage. ;-)

But as mentioned, that's just a story, I am sure american soldiers know how to follow orders without ******* up too, it one of those stories you tell people to give them this "don't be that guy" feeling.

IIRC the americans tell a similar anecdote about the german soldier who stands for 6 days on a bridge and "defends" the bridge, because someone has forgotten to pick him up after the field exercise. And that poor bloke could have ask anytime at HQ if he is still required to guard that stupid bridge, but never bothered with thinking for himself. That is the kind of following orders that should be discouraged in most modern militaries. *grin*

3 hours ago, Jon D said:

That general conditioning you mention is called being in the military. Those fancy uniforms come with the side effect of having to follow orders that don't always make sense.

In a real-world military, the officers and soldiers haven't been subjected to years of intense indoctrination that makes them unable to question orders, nor is there intense political pressure to "succeed at all costs" and "status quo is god" that the Empire had. I've known a number of folks that have served in the armed forces, including those that saw action overseas, and not a single one of them was the unthinking automaton that you seem to believe those who serve in the military would be.

By the time RotJ rolls around, you've got command staff that were raised on 20+ years of Imperial propaganda, and have had it hammered into their skulls that you obey the chain of command and that proven methods always work best, even if the situation is radically different than all the prior times the established method was used. That Imperial mentality was a large part of why the Rebels were able to be so successful, and why Thrawn is presented as such a threat, is the ability to think outside the box and to improvise new solutions as the situation calls for it. It's also why Thrawn was seen as something of a maverick, is that he's willing to buck the established military protocols and accept smaller losses while working towards a larger victory, where most Imperial officers focus on the smaller, immediate victories.

But then there's not any real-world comparison to the sort of environment the Galactic Empire was able to establish, as such totalitarian regimes were really only able to control the flow of information within their immediate sphere of influence, and there was always a broader world that could present the actual facts instead of what the totalitarian government wants the populace to believe. Yes, Star Wars did have the Alliance pushing the truth of the Empire's atrocities, but they were generally small and up until the Battle of Yavin largely dismissed as not being of any great consequence.

If anything, the Empire's control of information could be likened to how the governments operated in the novel 1984, with those daring to go outside the lines being brought to heel through psychological torture. If you don't do and think what The Party tells you to do and think, then you're a problem that needs to be "fixed," up to and including the use of Room 101.

4 hours ago, SEApocalypse said:

That there are limits to that and those depends on the specific military, the american discipline in following orders to the letter is legendary among other armies, and not with a positive spin. For sure exaggerated too.

One of the stories about american soldiers you get told is for example: You tell an american soldier to get you a tool from storage room 27, shelf B 26 and if it is not there he will come back to you, report that the tool was not there and ask for a new order. One of ours you just tell to get that **** tool and he will look for it, if it is not where it was supposed to be. The moral of those stories was always, follow intent of an order, but don't follow them beyond reason. And technical both versions follow the order, one just so much to the letter that it becomes basically sabotage. ;-)

But as mentioned, that's just a story, I am sure american soldiers know how to follow orders without ******* up too, it one of those stories you tell people to give them this "don't be that guy" feeling.

IIRC the americans tell a similar anecdote about the german soldier who stands for 6 days on a bridge and "defends" the bridge, because someone has forgotten to pick him up after the field exercise. And that poor bloke could have ask anytime at HQ if he is still required to guard that stupid bridge, but never bothered with thinking for himself. That is the kind of following orders that should be discouraged in most modern militaries. *grin*

Anecdotal, but supposedly written by a Soviet officer:

"One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine..."

14 hours ago, MaxKilljoy said:

Anecdotal, but supposedly written by a Soviet officer:

"One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine..."

Hilarious.

Time for a bumpage (mostly so I can find it in a couple of days) because with Battlefield II and it's single player game after Endor, I expect that we'll get a lot more details filled in here in short order.

Well, finally got a chance to play through the (distressingly short) single player campaign. No real information to be had - a bit more about Operation Cinder, how Inferno Squad helped recover Destro's Weather Manipulator the Climate Disruption Array from Fondor, deploying them above Vardos (where you get Iden's all to quick Heel/Face turn). There's a peek inside the Emperor's Observatory on Pillio, we find out that just before Jaku, the Empire has an AT-AT factory running at full tilt and that there was a major Imperial refueling depot on Bespin.

And then there's the Battle of Jakku - pretty badassed, even if there's not that much to it. You could mine the game missions for some player activities - responding to distress calls, holding off Walkers, fighting their way into a crashed Star Destroyer to set off a chain reaction to blow it up. I didnt think much of the game, but having a raging gun battle on the outside hull of a Star Destroyer is hella cool.

So yeah, nothing really new to add to what we know, other than just how vast the Jakku fight was.

45 minutes ago, Desslok said:

Well, finally got a chance to play through the (distressingly short) single player campaign.

Also finished it. It was short but fun. And, I actually liked the cliffhanger for the DLC continuation AFTER the upcoming movie release.

Speculation on who the child of the 2 main characters will turn out to be? Someone we have not met to grow up and continue the DLC missions? Rey (doubtful)? I haven't kept up on the EU for the new movies and while playing I had hoped they would turn out to be Poe's parents, before I read the wiki to find out that was already fleshed out.

1 hour ago, Desslok said:

There's a peek inside the Emperor's Observatory on Pillio,

Haven't finished the campaign quite yet, but as soon as I got to this part, I decided that I'm definitely pillaging it for my Raiders of the Lost Jedi campaign.

Deleted.

Here we go, I09 has a brand new summary of the timeline between Jedi and E7

4 ABY: The Galactic Empire Falls

• After staging a distraction over the Imperial-occupied planet of Sullust, the Rebel Fleet gathers over the forest moon of Endor, successfully destroying the under-construction Death Star II. Both Emperor Palpatine and his enforcer Darth Vader perish in the ensuing battle, dealing a mortal blow to the Empire’s order of rule across key star systems. (MOVIE: Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi )
• In the celebratory aftermath of victory on Endor, Princess Leia Organa and Alliance General Han Solo are married in a private ceremony. (NOVEL: Aftermath: Life Debt , NOVEL: Aftermath: Empire’s End )
• Luke Skywalker travels to the planet Pillio in search of artifacts held in secret observatories by Palpatine. Encountering Inferno Squad agent Del Meeko, Luke recovers a compass from Palpatine’s observatory on the planet. (GAME: Battlefront II )

• Palpatine’s death activates a contingency plan among remaining Imperial admirals known as Operation: Cinder, targeting key worlds—including Naboo, Vardos, Commenor, and more—with climate-disrupting satellite weaponry designed to ravage worlds and instill fear among Imperial citizens. After Cinder’s successful implementation on Vardos, Inferno Squadron members Iden Versio and Del Meeko defect to the Rebel Alliance, helping to defeat Operation: Cinder above Naboo alongside Princess Leia Organa. ( Battlefront II , COMIC: Shattered Empire )
• The Rebel Alliance dissolves, formally reorganizing itself into the New Republic. (NOVEL: Aftermath )
• Governor Adelhard of the Anoat Sector instigates the Iron Blockade, locking down transport in and out of the system and cracking down on the dissemination of outside information. Discontent insurgents on the worlds within the sector begin open rebellion. (GAME: Uprising )
• The planets of Akiva, Sterdic IV, Bespin, and Malastare are liberated from Imperial rule. Riots that broke out following the Emperor’s death on Coruscant flourish into a planetary civil war. (Aftermath)
• The Galactic Senate is restored on the planet Chandrila, and Mon Mothma is elected Chancellor. Mothma announces her plans to relinquish the emergency powers granted to the Chancellor’s office during the outbreak of the Clone Wars nearly three decades earlier, as well as moves to reduce the size of the New Republic military by 90 percent in the aftermath of the Galactic Civil War. (Aftermath)

5 ABY: The New Republic Era

• On a mission to the planet Vetine, Luke Skywalker and Shara Bey recover two fragments of the Great Tree that once sat at the heart of the Jedi Temple on Coruscant from a secret Imperial facility. One fragment is kept by Skywalker, and the second is offered as a gift to Bey and her husband, Kes Dameron, who plant it on Yavin IV after retiring from the New Republic military to raise their young son, Poe. (Shattered Empire)
• A force of smugglers and bounty hunters recruited by Han Solo and Chewbacca, along with assistance from Rebel operatives and the New Republic Fleet, successfully liberate the Wookiee homeworld of Kashyyyk from the Empire’s rule. His life debt to Solo fulfilled, Chewbacca retires to Kashyyyk with his family. (Aftermath: Life Debt)
• Peace talks between the Empire and the New Republic on Chandrila disintegrate when former Imperial prisoners, unknowing sleeper agents controlled by secret implants, open fire on Imperial and New Republic ambassadors, killing and wounding several. The Galactic Senate temporarily relocates to the planet Nakadia in the aftermath. (Aftermath: Life Debt)

• The Imperial Remnant gathers its military forces over the desert world of Jakku under the command of Gallius Rax and Moff Randd. After voting to take military action, the Galactic Senate sends New Republic forces to engage the Remnant fleet. Vastly outnumbered in the wake of a string of crushing losses across the galaxy, the Empire is totally defeated in the skies and on the ground at Jakku, losing multiple ships and the Super Star Destroyer Ravager , their derelict hulls left to decay after crashing down into on the surface, creating a region on the planet that would come to be known as the Starship Graveyard. (GAME: Battlefront , Battlefront II , NOVEL: Lost Stars , Aftermath: Empire’s End )
• After being extracted out of conflict zones on Coruscant, Imperial Grand Vizier Mas Amedda contacts Mon Mothma and sues for peace, initiating talks that culminate in the signing of the Galactic Concordance. The Empire relinquishes several worlds to the New Republic, including Coruscant, and is given strict borders for its own territories. According to the Imperial Articles of Surrender, the recruitment and mobilization of Imperial armed forces is ended, and the Imperial Government at large is dissolved, leading to the creation of an internal Government within the Empire’s newly-established territories. The Galactic Civil War concludes, five years after it officially began at the Battle of Scarif. ( Aftermath: Empire’s End , Lost Stars , BOOK: Star Wars: The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary )
• Ben Solo, the son of General Leia Organa and Han Solo, is born on Chandrila. ( Aftermath: Empire’s End )
• Surviving Imperial forces lead by Admiral Rae Sloane continue to engage the New Republic in various holdouts on Jakku, before retreating into the Unknown Regions on the deathbed orders of Gallius Rax. He begins to slowly but surely rebuild the Empire in secret, an entity that eventually renames itself the First Order. ( Aftermath: Empire’s End , Star Wars: The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary )

The Wilderness Years

• 11 ABY: Finn is born, and soon separated from his family to be raised under the designation FN-2187 by the First Order. (Star Wars: The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary)
•  Approximately between 13-19 ABY : First Order General Brendol Hux crashlands on the low-tech world of Parnassos, encountering a warrior of the Scyre tribe named Phasma. Phasma helps Hux leave Parnassos, joining him as a member of the First Order’s leadership. (NOVEL: Phasma )
• 15 ABY: Rey is born. (Star Wars: The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary)
• 21 ABY: Working in secret with a political subgroup within the Galactic Senate, the First Order reaches out to criminal cartels and the mercenary group known as the Amaxine Warriors to begin securing funding to rebuild its Navy. (NOVEL: Bloodline )
• Approximately between 23-28 ABY : After sensing the potential lure of the Dark Side of the Force in her son, Leia Organa sends Ben to train in the ways of the Force with her brother and his fledgling next generation of Jedi Knights. (Bloodline)

28 ABY: The Rise of the First Order

• The Galactic Senate begins discussions to create the office of the “First Senator” to replace the Chancellor’s role and heal growing divides between two emergent factions within the Senate: The Populists, who are advocating for New Republic member worlds to maintain their sovereignty, and the Centrists, who want a strong centralized government and an increased military force in the wake of Mon Mothma’s demilitarization pact. (Bloodline)
• The Amaxine Warriors, led by a former Imperial, launch several terrorist attacks against the Senate, targeting Populist leaders. Senators Leia Organa and Ransolm Casterfo are tasked with investigating the group. ( Bloodline )
• Acting on information provided by Centrist senator Carise Sindian, Casterfo publicly exposes Leia Organa as the daughter of Darth Vader, to the shock and dismay of the Galactic Senate. In light of the revelations about her parentage, Leia exits the election to become First Senator and resigns from the Senate. (Bloodline)
• Shortly after her resignation, Leia Organa officially forms a paramilitary group dubbed the Resistance alongside former New Republic Admiral Gial Ackbar to combat the threat of the Empire’s return when the New Republic will not. (Bloodline)
• Carise Sindian reveals plans for Centrist Senators to formally secede from the New Republic, joining with First Order military forces in the Unknown Regions. (Bloodline)
• Approximately between 28-34 ABY : Ben Solo falls to the Dark Side, betraying his uncle, destroying the emerging new Jedi Order, and taking the name Kylo Ren before joining the First Order. Horrified by the slaughter, Luke Skywalker goes into exile, in search of the location of the first Jedi Temple. (Bloodline, Star Wars: The Force Awakens)

34 ABY: A New War

• Following altercations with First Order forces at Suraz and OR-Kappa-2722, New Republic Commander Poe Dameron defects to the Resistance alongside members of his X-Wing team, Rapier Squadron. (NOVEL: Before the Awakening )
• Captured by First Order forces, former New Republic soldier Del Meeko is tortured at Kylo Ren’s hands, and reveals that the explorer Lor San Tekka took a fragment of a map leading to Luke Skywalker’s location to the planet Bayora. Meeko is killed shortly after. (Battlefront II)
• On a mission to the planet Taul to gain information about captured Resistance Admiral Gial Ackbar, C-3PO loses his left arm, replacing it with a red one scavenged from a First Order droid. (COMIC: C-3PO: The Phantom Limb )
• General Leia Organa tasks Poe Dameron with searching for Lor San Tekka and the map to her brother. Dameron forms the ace pilot team known as Black Squadron for the operation. (COMIC: Poe Dameron )

• Resistance forces secure part of a map leading to the location of exiled Jedi Master Luke Skywalker from Lor San Tekka, and a cold war turns hot as the First Order, striking from the hidden planetary weapon known as Starkiller Base, eradicates the New Republic Senate on Hosnian Prime. Former Alliance hero Han Solo is killed during a Resistance mission to cripple Starkiller, and Rey sets out to the planet of Ahch-To to learn the ways of the Force. (Star Wars: The Force Awakens)
• Escaping the destruction of Starkiller Base, Captain Phasma tracks down and executes First Order Lieutenant Sol Rivas for treason and allowing the planetary shield around Starkiller to be lowered, covering her own involvement in the assault, before retreating into First Order space. (COMIC: Captain Phasma )
• Rey encounters Luke Skywalker, returning his father’s lightsaber to him. The Resistance, fearing retaliation after the destruction of Starkiller Base, flees its formerly-hidden base on D’Qar. With the New Republic’s seat of power turned to ash, the First Order emerges from out of the Unknown Regions of the galaxy to enter open war with the remnants of the New Republic, and the forces that would resist its complete dominance. As for the rest... well, you’ll have to wait till December 15 to find out, won’t you?

I09 put together another helpful guide: Everything we know about the New Republic .