Hi again all. Irritatingly I am back with another ship build. I was playing with the Shrike and while I know many would balk at the idea of a 66 SP raider, there is a lot to be said for not tearing your hair out on acquisition tests for your bare-bones cruiser. All upgrades would be ship upgrades, which are gravy rather than necessities (other than turbo-weapon batteries!).

The concept was for a ship with amazing stealth (which it has) and which still provided a decent number of AP bonuses. The RT concept for this ship is not a criminal per se, but is certainly happy to run blockades staged by rivals as well as use the stealth to avoid combats he cannot win. Between the speed and the stealth, he should be able to pick his fights rather well. I also kitted it out to be exploration capable and not dreadful at trade. To put it in perspective most LCs and Frigates only end up with +100 Trade APs, so its comparable.

This hull is certainly better than the 73SP Sword-Class I also did as a thought experiment. Dropping the points to 61 is easy enough - competent crew and no warpsbane hull, but is the 7SP at the beginning that crucial when you have a "complete" ship to start with? The main problem I see with this ship is its future consorts - it will be hard to adequately match other hulls with it other than more raiders and Orions. Given that "big-shiny-pretty" cruisers are the seeming endgoal of most RTs, that could be problematic. Of course, this ship would remain a superlative scout and skirmisher even as part of a large fleet.

Not sure what else I could do to improve this, so please give me your opinions.

The ”Opacare Cursor”

HULL: Raider

CLASS: Salvaged, Refurbished and Repurposed Meritech Shrike-Class Raider

DIMENSIONS: 2 km long, 0.25 km abeam at fins approx

MASS: 6 Megatonnes approx

CREW: 15,000 Crew approx

ACCEL: 5.9 gravities maximum sustainable acceleration

SPEED: 10 MANOEUVRABILITY: +30 DETECTION: +18

VOID SHIELDS: 1 ARMOUR: 17 HULL INTEGRITY: 36

MORALE: 99 CREW POPULATION: 100 CREW: Crack (40)

TURRET RATING: 2 WEAPON CAPACITY: Prow 1, Dorsal

SPACE: 35 (35 used) POWER: 40 (40 used) SP: 68

COMPLICATIONS: Resolute, Wrested from a Space Hulk

ESSENTIAL COMPONENTS: Cypra-Pattern Class 2 Drive, Best Craftsmanship Miloslav G-616.b Warp Engine, Good Craftsmanship (Power) Single Void Shield Array, Warpsbane Hull, Command Bridge, Best Craftsmanship Vitae Pattern Life Sustainer, Good Craftsmanship (Space) Pressed Crew Quarters, RG-50 Auspex Multi-Band

WEAPONS: Prow: Best Craftsmanship (Power and Space) Sunsear Laser Battery (Strength 4, Damage 1d10+2, Critical 4, Range 9) Dorsal: Best Craftsmanship (Power and Space) Sunsear Laser Battery (Strength 4, Damage 1d10+2, Critical 4, Range 9)

CARGO BAYS AND PASSENGER COMPARTMENTS: Good Craftsmanship (Space) Cargo Hold and Lighter Bay

AUGMENTS & ENHANCEMENTS: Good Craftsmanship (Power) Augmented Retro-Thrusters, Empyrean Mantle, Good Craftsmanship (Space) Reinforced Interior Bulkheads

ADDITIONAL FACILITIES: Observation Dome, Trophy Room

SATELLITE CRAFT : 3 x Gun Cutters, 4 x Arvus Lighters, 4 x Halo Barges

SHIP MODIFIERS: Ballistic tests to fire ship’s weapons +10, Command tests made by the captain +5, Manoeuvre tests to avoid navigational hazards +5, Repair Tests +10, Tests to detect the ship when silent running are two degrees more difficult and at -15 to the skill test, Time in Warp is reduced by 50%, Warp encounters every 3 days, When misfortunes occur role twice and the GM selects the worst

ACHIEVEMENT POINT MODIFIERS: Criminal +150, Exploration +150, Trade +100

Edited to fix morale

That thing is SHARP (gotta love those Sunsears) - with an escort to drop the enemies' voidshields, you could 1hit kill anything short of a cruiser with a concentrated barrage of those batteries.

If I were you, I would intimidate another player to play a BS-focused voidmaster just to ensure you get the most of those sunsears. haha

That's a solid Raider... it better be for the cost of a Cruiser.

For my money, if I were acquiring BC Sunsears, I'd go for the extra point of STR over a -1 Power savings. I'd also go for the improved Crit over the space savings. Trophy Rooms just aren't worth the space.

For my money, if I were acquiring BC Sunsears, I'd go for the extra point of STR over a -1 Power savings. I'd also go for the improved Crit over the space savings. Trophy Rooms just aren't worth the space.

Obviously, the -1 power for BC was a fitting concern. Given that the ship is 40/40 power, It's over-fitted. And for all 69 SP with BC components and archeotech, I could still wax this thing with a stock Dauntless or Endeavor... for less SP. Hell, with some decent rolls and solid tactics, I could 1-shot this in a Cobra.

I get that Traejun, but I was suggesting there were other trade-offs that would be more efficient. Yes, you can 1-shot the thing with a Cobra, or just about anything else for that matter. And that's the final problem with the design. The Reinforced Bulkheads is plastic reinforcement on a glass cannon...now you have shatterproof glass, but it's still glass Trophy Rooms are a personal choice, but an inefficient AP bonus component. In fact, the whole ship is an amalgam of improved craftsmanship in order to fit more components on board, to the point that it's as expensive as a cruiser...but it's still a raider, and can only take damage as a raider.

Hey, ships are often just a matter of personal choice, but a word of caution to any would-be ship designer and player. Go for cheap efficiency. It's a matter of spending permanent PF or rolling vs PF. Everything you add at a later date is an acquisition roll. Everything you begin with comes off the bottom line.

I really hope to not derail this back into another conversation we've already had, but it's the above that frequently gets me to babble "try to start with the cruiser; the point of the game is to make money." Combat WILL happen, and I rarely read posts where the smaller to middle-sized ships aren't often just described as fragile. This time, it might be more someone trying to build a raider INTO a warship, and that probably won't work, even with judicious use of quality, but it does come up, often. Nothing one seems to do to make a smaller ship tougher, like her big siblings, ever seems to meet with success, rather than just "start with the big ship", or "be ready, and willing , to sometimes run away, and cut your losses." Okay, I'm done with this old line of mine.

I suppose the question becomes "what is the ship's role?" If it's supposed to be a one-ship battler, hmm...probably no. Oversimplifying, raiders are quick, and they hit fast, you get in, get loot, and get out, before backup shows up, and you pick fights with transports, themselves often under-armed for their job. For bigger pray, you spend the money on more raiders, and pack swarm them. Making this ship "able to tangle with a light cruiser" sounds good, but it shouldn't maybe have to, and that's not a raider's strengths. Why did the party pick it, over a more combaty ship, if combat was an objective? Blah, blah, I am now looking at the clock, and thinking it's time for bed. Have a great day, all.

You can have a small ship made for combat, but a raider probably isn't the place to start looking (though of all raiders the Meritech is probably the best). Since raiders have speed at the cost of armor, you need to capitalize on that advantage and either equip yourself for the fast in-and-out kill, equip yourself for the stealth attack, or go full-on boarding action specialty. I'd point out at this time that if you are going for the stealth option, though, that even transports are good for that. On the other hand, if you want small and gun-combat-worthy, then the frigate is your baby. Any of them can be turned into combat-worthy ships capable of fighting a capital ship. You still won't want to get into a stand-up broadsides slugfest type of fight, but with decent maneuvering you can take on even a cruiser.

The ship hulls available are all viable in one role or another, but they don't all have the ability to change roles. For that you want a capital ship. They are large enough to carry the range of components necessary to engage in multiple roles.

Thank you all for your feedback and comments. Some very good points made. To clarify what I was thinking when designing it :-

Purposes of the ship concept, in descending order of importance

1) Stealth and fight picking - its a blockade runner, smuggler and clandestine explorer primarily.

2) Being able to stand toe-to-toe with everything up to and including a Frigate - hence the bonuses from Resolute, Wrested and the Interior bulkheads

3) To have a chance at out manoeuvring anything larger to either avoid combat completely (with stealth's help) or to "kite" it to death.

4) To be something that would "wow" clients and rivals with its quality - ostentatious displays of wealth and a resolution arena (alongside crew improvements and turboweapon batteries of course) were in this ship's immediate upgrade future.

From what I can see, this ship is not much more fragile than a Sword that rolled badly on its "crush of gravity" roll from Planetbound for Millennia, or that was "Ancient and Wise". So, outfitted as is it is not much more "glassy" than a stock Frigate and a hell of a lot faster, more manoeuvrable and stealthier. But again, the point was to not fight unless absolutely necessary. I threw together a 68SP Sword and I would rather take the Meritech out from a versatility and survivability point of view. A Cobra might just 1-shot it, but that same Cobra could potentially 1-shot a 68 SP Frigate too - and the Cobra would be far less likely to see the Shrike in the 1st place.

But yes, points made are accepted and assimilated. Even with an average PF advance, it might still be a solo ship by the time the Warp Storm Trilogy and it would suffer in those adventures if not accompanied by a consort, which as mentioned would be hard to really do well from a compatibility point of view. Whereas a Stygies armed Tyrant with Sunsear and Grav-Culverin Broadsides (and a barracks + teleportarium) would shine as well as being as good or better at everything other than criminal endeavours.

Incidentally, why the hate for the Trophy Room? A single component empowering Criminal, Exploration and Trade endeavours seems like good value to me (especially for smaller ships or those hurting for space like a Secutor), as well as being brilliantly appropriate from an RP point of view.

Well of course all of our comments are colored by the house rules we play with. Goiing by the original rules the armor doesn't count for anything, so the Shrike is as good as a frigate. But if you use Math-hammer or a variant then the frigates sport 1-4 more points of armor and that can be a very big deal. Most of the frigates are slightly larger, too, with the Falchion coming in a whopping 7 spaces larger (not to mention the +2 power), meaning it can do the same as the Meritech without having to spend all the additional SP on quality components (although you still spend them on the ship itself). And when you've played a while you'll find that the differences of speed in ships like the Shrike and Cobra is a bit secondary to the speed the players can add to the ship using actions like Adjust Speed, Aid the Machine Spirit, Flank Speed, and Put Your Backs Into It.

You say you drew up a 68 SP Sword to compare to the Shrike. Most of the comments I've made (I won't speak for the others) are to the effect that dumping 68 SP into a raider isn't very cost-effective. You'd be better off with a cruiser, or with a higher starting SP (starting with a stock Shrike gives you better than a 50% chance of acquiring another Shrike right out of the starting gate). Hey, the players in my first campaign did the exact same thing with an Orion (it also cost about 68 SP) and they had a blast with it, though it died a fiery death in the end. But since you came here looking for advice I'm giving it to you straight...you're better off not dumping 68 SP into a raider.

As far as the Trophy Room goes, that's also dependent on house rules. RAW, the Luxury Passenger Quarters rule. They are exactly twice as good as the Trophy Room and you can stack as many of them on your ship as you want. Of course, I'd highly recommend house ruling AP components or your ships can quickly get out of hand.

In bringing up the point of a consort ship you hit upon an important point, namely that a ship focused on stealth doesn't usually run well with other ships unless they are also stealthed out and/or fast which is an unreliable assumption, unless the GM is engineering the game to suit your original vessel. The learning curve of all involved RPG rules is steep and RT is no different. Your ship will provide you a fun campaign, but you'll learn tons of stuff along the way and your second ship will look nothing like that Shrike.

I assume you mean the Turbulent, not the Falchion. I wish the Falchion was better actually since I love the look of it.

Yeah, got that with Luxury Passenger Quarters - but I have a RP/concept issue with including it, even on "floating palace" concepts since I would not, as a player, want the GM to hit me with "you spend 3 months advertising your luxury berths" before giving me the AP bonuses. Its the opposite for me with Trophy Room - I can't conceive of a vain-glorious RT who would not want an "I love me" room the size of a concert hall.

Thanks again for your input - I do value it as well as that given by the others who commented.

As I have said before, this is very much a thought exercise since work and life mean that I can't find the time for any RPGs let alone the time to search out a specific one. I just about manage 2 nights a month to wargame (not GW - who can afford that?).

So, hypothetically (and I have read many ship building posts on this forum and others) and in your opinion - what is better in general terms: A bareish-bones cruiser or a fully tricked out frigate? For 70/73 points you can make one hell of a Turbulent and for 73 a decent Tyrant or Dictator.

In précis form to save space, four other concepts I have been playing with are as follows :-

Conquest-Class Star Galleon (73 SP) Auditor of Providence

Planetbound.

Modified Jovian 4, Miloslav, Shields, Gellar Field, Bridge of Antiquity, Vitae Pattern, Voidsman Quarters, X-470

Sunsear Laser Battery (Good: Strength) x 4

Main Cargo x 2, Arboretum (Good: Space), Murder Servitors, Teleportarium, Temple Shrine, Trophy Room

Creed +100, Criminal +50, Exploration +50, Trade +300

Tyrant-Class Cruiser (73 SP) Executor of the Assizes

Martial Hubris, Emissary of the Imperator

Jovian 4, Miloslav, Shields, Gellar Field, Ship Master's, Vitae Pattern, Voidsman, BG-15

Stygies Bombardment Cannon, Sunsear Las-Broadside x 2, Grav-Culverin Broadside x 2

Barracks, Compartmentalised Cargo Hold, Auto-Temple, Teleportarium, Trophy Room

Creed +150, Criminal +50, Exploration +50, Military +150/+200, Trade +150

Dauntless-Class Light Cruiser (73 SP) Sanctioned Avarice

A Nose for Trouble, Turbulent Past

Jovian 3, Miloslav, Shield, Gellar Field, Command Bridge, Vitae, Voidsman (Good: Power), RG-50

Sunhammer (Good: Strength), Sunsear Laser Battery (Good: Strength) x 2

Barracks, Cargo Hold and Lighter Bay, Empyrean Mantle, Extended Supply Vaults, Trophy Room

Criminal +150, Exploration +100, Military +100, Trade +100

* Issue - no Archeotech installed and there needs to be one! Could drop the barracks or the extended supply vaults for a (good: power) upgrade somewhere and a teleportarium ; or do a straight swap for a Castellan shield to make the ship less squishy.

Secutor-Class Monitor Cruiser (73 SP) Tribunus Aes

Resolute, Wrested from a Space Hulk

Jovian 3, Miloslav, Shields, Gellar Field, Command Bridge, Vitae, Voidsman, X-470

Gryphonne Torpedos, Sunsear Battery (Good: Strength) x 3

Cargo Hold and Lighter Bay, Murder Servitors, Observation Dome, Teleportarium, Trophy Room

Criminal +100, Exploration +100, Trade +100

Of those 4, mechanically I think that the Tyrant would be best - would you agree? However, the "floating palace" of the Conquest (which has room for an observation dome and a melodium for quick installation to make it truly a floating palace) has its own rewards, although survivability may be an issue until I could make space for flak turrets and afford overload shield capacitors. The Dauntless is pretty "stock" - hits hard, does what it says on the tin, Rogue Tradery enough to fill the RP elements. But it is ugly and does not "sing" to me. The Secutor is much worse than the Dauntless when it comes to AP bonuses, but is much sexier to look at and packs a harder punch while being more robust.

From what you have said, and if we don't use math-hammer and stick to RAW the choice would almost have to be between the Conquest or the Tyrant. Comments and opinions would be welcome.

Yes I did mean the Turbulent. I had a momentary brain-gap. And I don't have a problem with taking 3 months to fill my passenger quarters as long as my GM doesn't think that 3 weeks is sufficient to fill my ship larders. Otherwise the GM is penalizing me for intelligent gameplay. If the GM wants unintelligent players then I'd leave him/her to them. There are better ways to balance the game.

I understand perfectly the dearth of game time. I'm a family-and-career man, too, and I only play 2 nights a month. I sympathize with only having time for theoretical studies.

In short, the bare-bones is always preferable to tricked-out for a starting ship, UNLESS one is going RAW. The rules have some VERY broken components. Some are only slightly broken (e.g. Miloslavs, which RAW are a no-brainer as they are ALL benefit without a single drawback), and some are horribly broken (e.g. the whole AP system and the way components add to it are disgustingly broken). If you play RAW there really are only a couple of ship designs, and of course those are the few designs that take the most advantage of the broken components. Some people would argue against this philosophy, but I find their reasoning disingenuous. I play according to the rules, and I play my best. I'm not doing my best if I purposefully ignore the best designs in a pretense to fairness. Of course, this is an infinite loop discussion that means all your ship designs are less than optimal, and that's simply no fun at all.

The reason bare-bones is preferable revolves around permanent PF. Any acquired ship component costs one successful dice roll. Any starting ship component cost permanent PF. Therefore, the only ship component worth an extra SP cost, then, is a component without which it would be difficult to survive without, or a ship component that will pay back more in the long run than it costs in the short run (i.e. a ship component with AP bonuses).

If I had to advise you, my first advice would be, "Don't play the game RAW. Use Math-hammer or a variant, and don't stop there." If you don't like that advice then my second piece of advice would be to use my Universe-class design with AP Bonuses of Trade (+2,650), Creed (+2,100), and Criminal (+2,150). That's worth +69 PF for playing Into the Maw...on top of the 3-5 the scenario already rewards you with. And it only costs a mere 2 SP more than the 68 SP raider. Since that's absurd, then you simply can't agree to play RAW.

Okay, okay, I've beaten that dead dog more than needed. The RAW are broken. Don't play them as written. BUT, what if you're going to anyway? Which of those less-than-optimal designs above are better than the others? What's with the Machine Spirits and Complications? You can buy Planetbound, but you don't get to cherry-pick Oddities & Complications to match the hull in question. I'm just a real buzz-kill, aren't I?

I like the Conquest. Yours is fitted out for boarding actions. That's not optimal because the ship is slow and unmaneuverable. That's a role for raiders and frigates. Your Tyrant is a solid design but by no means optimized. The Dauntless seems a bit flawed. Did you check the Sunhammer's errata on this design? I'm working with figures in my head, so you might be fine. The Secutor is a solid ship, but often lacks the space to properly outfit the way it was meant to be, which is plain weird. Still, I like it.

I hope that helps.

How the heck would you use components for Trade (+2,650), Creed (+2,100), and Criminal (+2,150) in Into The Maw?

Sure, the RAW per-se isn't perfect, but I've GMin for a group for almost 2 years now and I didn't have a player munchkin so much that I couldn't tell him "hey, that doesn't make any sense - throwing auto-temples at the orks in Magoros won't convert them mate, and no - you cant throw those at the Fel Hand either."

Part 1: Exploration - 500 APs, p. 385

Part 2: Exploration - 500 APs, p. 386

Part 3: Exploration - 500 APs, p.391

Additional Objectives:

Objective: A Questionable Cargo (Criminal) 200 APs, p. 385

Objective: Pilgrims in the Storm (Creed) 200 or 400 APs, p. 386

Ending Statement: "Plundering the Righteous Path will net the Explorers a bonus of +3 to their Profit as they sell on the artifacts and treasures they recover."

Sounds like Trade to me, but I admit that's an interpretation. The whole adventure is sold as a voyage of exploration. But that last objective doesn't jive with the legend of a ship so bursting with treasure they removed its macrobatteries to accomodate the loot.

And I do remember running that scenario back when and my players established colonies at Magoros Prime (to explore and loot the Egarian ruins), Magoros Secundus (to research the Star Mirror), and the Halo Shard (to continue looting the Righteous Path ). They had carried colonists, habitats, and terraforming equipment with them. They later also assembled my first attempt at an orbital station in that system.

Good enough explanation?

So, you have a ship that turns lesser endeavors into grand+ endeavors basically?

To be honest, I enjoyed the concept a lot. Sounds like those legendary archeotech colony-ships from the dark age of technology which had everything needed in them to create advanced human civilizations on distant star systems.

Sounds like something doable for an RT with an extremely well equipped Mass Conveyor. May I ask which were the components you had in it? (and if that's not too much, how did the Creed AP components interacted with the Pilgrims e.g.) - were they so astonished with your piousness (2k+ APs) that they pledged their ship to you? (which could be sold or repurposed for quite a profit)

This ship wasn't used for that campaign. This was an exercise in broken-ness. I wanted to see just how badly I could break the core rules. I was merely pointing out that it could fit into something as simple as the introductory scenario of the core rules book. The ship used by the players in my campaign when I ran that scenario was an Orion with a number of Luxury Passenger Quarters and the stock Main Cargo Hold (and maybe an extra, I don't remember). It was broken enough, but as it was my first campaign, and I'm never into punishing intelligent ship design or gameplay, I allowed it. As far as the Universe goes, here's the link to it...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tj-LB27yrawUKgfR-MNPc-xUonHOxRVpUItNoQ9Nyz4/edit?usp=sharing

As you can see there's not much archeotech about it, save the Cypra drive meant to help hide the ship from predators (along with the Empyrean Mantle). Otherwise it's packed full of Poor Craftsmanship components to make it affordable to an RT Dynasty straight out of the starting gate. Yes, you can build this baby using the Warrant Path and nothing else. It's rather explosive if it actually gets hit (all those auxiliary plamsa banks), and the morale hits are enormous (-74 IIRC), so the crew had best be prepared for multiple mutinies, BUT IT'S DOABLE. As far as Creed components go, I suppose you'd get those AP for actually carrying pilgrims or colonists to a Shrine World, or any world that was meant to become a Shrine World. But the Calixis Sector has no shortage of such worlds to collect colonists from.

In that campaign I ran, and it was my first, the party captured one of the Wolfpack raiders, chased the other off, and repaired/refurbished the Colony ship full of pilgrims (saving said pilgrims). By the time they finished their first Endeavor they had 3 ships and were salvaging a fourth. I've never been quite so kind since, though I'm not stingy when it comes to salvaging. I have no problems with the Dynasty having a small fleet.

That Extra-Stealthy Mass Conveyor is bulkier than a Super Star Destroyer.
Just wanted to remark that.

I liked the concept overall but still, personally , I wouldn't count all of those achievement points for those Luxury Quarters when looking at just the pilgrim vessel (in it you would only have enough rich/influential people to fill 1 of those components I estimate and putting the common piss-poor pilgrim in those components wouldn't get you any profit I guess).

You could however pass by Scintilla or Malfi, load half the noble houses in that ship and make a tour through the expanse. This could get you an humongous amount of profit but I imagine that it would basically be suicide - riots in the lower decks, nobles bickering with each other and with your crew, running off to the middle of a forest in a Death World or getting lost in an Egarian labyrinth, malfian/scintillan privateers trying to nab your scintillan/malfian nobles.

I would not really bother with this ship as a starting ship. The reliance on good quality components seems to inflate its SP cost without any significant increase in performance, to be honest, just so you can start with more stuff. In the end, If I really had to cram everything from the start, would have probably put this configuration on a Sword or Tempest frigate, so I have more space to deal with. You get better armor and the extra HP from reinforced bulkheads for free. Alternatively, I would start without some of the bells and whistles and pick them up later so the ship can grow with the players.

Also, am I the only one who loves the Markov on smaller or transport ships? Removing 1d10 days per week of travel (after the errate) can be insanely good if the dice don´t hate you - with average rolls, you cut travel time by 5.5 days per week, and without the Miloslav warp encounter issues. Barring the time spent traveling to and from the edges of the system so the warp jump is safe, you can end up arriving before you left.