Okay, I'm very new to the FFG Star Wars and only have F&D. I'm slowly reading it over. Last night I noticed something that really surprised me. 35xp spent on Force Move allows you to through silhouette 1 objects at people (like two people thrown into each other) for 10 damage. Meanwhile the Force... whatever, the Dark Side of Protect, does your Willpower + ranks in Strength.

Am I missing something or is Move waaaaay more deadly and Light Side approved?

Initially yes Move does more damage. However, you are relying on having something to throw at someone with move. While yes you can eventually pick up much larger silhouette items; they have to be within reach of your move and you have to activate all the upgrades to pick them up. So you could pick up a tie fighter and throw it against a group of Storm Troopers and do 30 damage to them. However, you have to have access to a Tie Fighter within range of your move range upgrades. Unleash (Force Lightning) Could potentially just keep throwing force points at the strength upgrade and jump up the damage quite quickly and can do that without having to have "ammunition" Also you have upgrades in Unleash that allow you to inflict strain as well as damage and inflict burn. All things that you can't accomplish with Move.

Well, Unleash lets you spend Force pips on some particular things that make it better in the end (causing non.soakable stun damage and burn damage in addition to the base damage, e.g.) without increasin the difficulty, whereas to throw a TIE Fighter, for example, you are rolling at PPP. So it seems Unleash is better when you're really good.

In the full description of the Mastery upgrade on page 301 of FaD CRB it says that for a Dark Sider the Mastery "represents the mastering the ultimate dark side technique, the dreaded Force lightning."

So until then you could be doing damage in all sorts of ways, including ways not visible, where as the Move power is VERY obvious. So there is a story element to it that helps.

But at the end of the day it's the Morality system that helps limit all these powers (although if your using Unleash your a powerful Force User already and probably don't care so much about conflict!

Many people will say Move is the most powerful as you can simply lift someone straight up then drop them... Massive conflict for a PC with that one. But for an Inquisitor do demonstrate their power on lowly minions in front of the PC's, I'd call for a fear check!

Am I missing something or is Move waaaaay more deadly and Light Side approved?

It's not "Light Side approved" if the motives/reasons behind the action are pernicious. That's what makes the Conflict mechanic important and potentially "balancing", with respect to Force Powers.

This might seem like a silly question (two actually) but is intended for move to be used to throw people about. It looks to me that bind is a better model for most of what we see in the films and TV shows. The ammunition issue does seem to be intended as a limiting factor on move, but it is a lot less limiting if you can just grab the target and smash them into the wall.

Second question the book says you have to make a ranged attack role, but does not say which skill. I have seen discipline mentioned but can't see it in the book, what am I missing? Thinking about it if you are using move to directly attack the target why would a role be needed, which again makes me think this is not an intended use of the power.

While I am at it I have thought of another question. For Powers like bind does a group of minions count as 1 target, or do you need to be able to affect them all?

And somehow I have managed to spell roll wrong. Twice! I blame my phone.

It's Discipline; it's always Discipline.

Move damage is ostensibly throwing stuff at people, but as it's been pointed out here and confirmed for years, you can totally throw enemies against each other, multiplying your damage. It's also the "Force Push" of the system. Since "a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack," the GM is well within his rights to award Conflict for this usage -- it's one thing to shove a bunch of assailants out of the way, another to drop TIE fighters on their heads or throw them off cliffs or up into the air to incur falling damage.

Minions share a "damage pool" ostensibly for the GM's convenience, but otherwise they are treated as individual targets. Myself, I always run minions as individuals with their own hopes, fears and dreams before being killed in 2 rounds, but with the unique ability to make the GM's life easier by pooling the dice for attacks and skill checks. Whatever works for the GM is fine.

This might seem like a silly question (two actually) but is intended for move to be used to throw people about. It looks to me that bind is a better model for most of what we see in the films and TV shows. The ammunition issue does seem to be intended as a limiting factor on move, but it is a lot less limiting if you can just grab the target and smash them into the wall.

Well, yeah, grabbing the dude doesn't require "ammo", but it limits the power to a basic damage of 10. Although if your aim is to move him, both Powers are ok - just they have different extra effects.

Second question the book says you have to make a ranged attack role, but does not say which skill. I have seen discipline mentioned but can't see it in the book, what am I missing? Thinking about it if you are using move to directly attack the target why would a role be needed, which again makes me think this is not an intended use of the power.

It's Discipline because it's stated on the Discipline skill description.

When you directly attack someone you need to pass a Combat Check, that's why the roll is required. Notice that, even though some Powers (like Bind) don't require a Combat Check in the description, there's a paragraph previous to the description of the Powers that states that, when affecting PCs or important NPCs, the GM should ask for a roll on top of spending the Force pips. They're too important characters to be owned just like that.

This might seem like a silly question (two actually) but is intended for move to be used to throw people about. It looks to me that bind is a better model for most of what we see in the films and TV shows. The ammunition issue does seem to be intended as a limiting factor on move, but it is a lot less limiting if you can just grab the target and smash them into the wall.

I feel like it could go either way, based on flavor and GM fiat. I would allow a character to use the move power to toss a character against a wall using a "telekinetic shove". This may be due to my time in KotOR, the Sage's powers are largely 'telekinetic' flavored, which seems more of a match for the Move power.

To *hold* them against the wall, yeah, that seems like more of a Bind power thing.

There's a sidebar in F&D that discusses similar uses for different force powers, and uses Bind and Move as examples. It's not exactly on target with the current discussion, but demonstrates there's plenty of wiggle room on exactly which power to use in a situation.

I think Lorne makes good points above, re: treated as individual targets. I think I may let the dice decide on this one, e.g. if a character rolled enough damage on a Bind check to take out a couple of minions, I would say the power affected enough minions for that to make sense. If they were trying to immobilize them, then I may require the upgrade. (I'm AFB, so I may be screwing up how Bind works, but I still would try to let the dice decide).

I'm reminded of the old debates in Saga Edition about which Force power was better, move object or Force lightning ?

The former was hard to beat in terms of sheer damage output (especially in Saga Edition as the damage value wasn't dependent on the size of the object; you could do as much damage with a pebble as you could a YT-1300), while Force lightning did less raw damage overall but also has some nasty side effects, since in Saga Edition, you took half damage if the attacker missed, and on a hit automatically got pushed two steps down the condition track, with a likely third step down due to the amount of damage you just took (which meant you took some hefty penalties to your d20-based rolls and your defense scores).

That seems to carried over to this system as well, in that the Move power offers more raw damage (though this time limited to the size of the hurled object) while Unleash can do some fairly nasty things (including score some vicious crits with the Mastery Upgrade). I think it's quite appropriate that Move can be used to quickly end a fight by knocking the other guy unconscious, but Unleash is more about causing suffering (both short-term and long-term), making it a very good reflection of the cruel nature of the dark side of the Force.

This might seem like a silly question (two actually) but is intended for move to be used to throw people about. It looks to me that bind is a better model for most of what we see in the films and TV shows. The ammunition issue does seem to be intended as a limiting factor on move, but it is a lot less limiting if you can just grab the target and smash them into the wall.

I feel like it could go either way, based on flavor and GM fiat. I would allow a character to use the move power to toss a character against a wall using a "telekinetic shove". This may be due to my time in KotOR, the Sage's powers are largely 'telekinetic' flavored, which seems more of a match for the Move power.

To *hold* them against the wall, yeah, that seems like more of a Bind power thing.

There's a sidebar in F&D that discusses similar uses for different force powers, and uses Bind and Move as examples. It's not exactly on target with the current discussion, but demonstrates there's plenty of wiggle room on exactly which power to use in a situation.

While I am at it I have thought of another question. For Powers like bind does a group of minions count as 1 target, or do you need to be able to affect them all?

I think Lorne makes good points above, re: treated as individual targets. I think I may let the dice decide on this one, e.g. if a character rolled enough damage on a Bind check to take out a couple of minions, I would say the power affected enough minions for that to make sense. If they were trying to immobilize them, then I may require the upgrade. (I'm AFB, so I may be screwing up how Bind works, but I still would try to let the dice decide).

I am still not sure about using move as a direct attack, I feel like it is against the dirt of the rules somehow. Especially as it would also allow you to get around the skill check normally required to hit a target. Maybe it could be handled as an opposed check? Opposed by athletics or Coordination?

I am still not sure about using move as a direct attack, I feel like it is against the dirt of the rules somehow. Especially as it would also allow you to get around the skill check normally required to hit a target. Maybe it could be handled as an opposed check? Opposed by athletics or Coordination?

How is it getting around the skill check required to hit a target? It specifically states you need a skill check to hit a target. It is not an opposed check, same as hitting someone with your blaster isn't.

Do you know what page the sidebar is on, I don't remember it?

I am still not sure about using move as a direct attack, I feel like it is against the dirt of the rules somehow. Especially as it would also allow you to get around the skill check normally required to hit a target. Maybe it could be handled as an opposed check? Opposed by athletics or Coordination?

Force-Sensitives always have the option to do an opposed check with Discipline for certain powers, and then there's extra options based on the power that normal people can do, like Resilience or Athletics. Pg. 283

How is it getting around the skill check required to hit a target? It specifically states you need a skill check to hit a target. It is not an opposed check, same as hitting someone with your blaster isn't.

If the GM allows it, Force-Sensitives can turn the Move attack in an opposed Discipline check to make it not unlike Yoda and Dooku or Obi-Wan and Anakin .

How is it getting around the skill check required to hit a target? It specifically states you need a skill check to hit a target. It is not an opposed check, same as hitting someone with your blaster isn't.

If the GM allows it, Force-Sensitives can turn the Move attack in an opposed Discipline check to make it not unlike Yoda and Dooku or Obi-Wan and Anakin .

Oh you mean if you throw someone against a wall? Well, if it's a PC or important NPC it should allow an opposed check, it's stated before all Power's descriptions. I would only consider not allowing a check if it was a Minion (after all, Bind and some others also don't require a check, plus if you wanted, you could use basic Move to move someone up then let him fall).

Edit: After checking your links. A contest of wills, yeah, nice idea also. Discipline or whatever skill is apropriate for the Power.

Oh you mean if you throw someone against a wall? Well, if it's a PC or important NPC it should allow an opposed check, it's stated before all Power's descriptions. I would only consider not allowing a check if it was a Minion (after all, Bind and some others also don't require a check, plus if you wanted, you could use basic Move to move someone up then let him fall).

Edit: After checking your links. A contest of wills, yeah, nice idea also. Discipline or whatever skill is apropriate for the Power.

It sounds like this got resolved in my absence, more or less, but I'll try to clarify a bit.

I don't see a lot of difference, mechanically, between using the Move power to...

• Pick someone up and throw them against a wall
• Use a telekinetic blast to injure someone

In either case, I would require the discipline check for the hitting and the damaging and the whatnot. Again, this is my interpretation and it's flavored pretty heavily by my time in the Old Republic vidya game.

I think the side bar I'm talking about is on the page opposite of the description of Bind's power tree; same page as the picture of the Twi-lek kid tossing a stormtrooper around, i think. I'm AFB right now so I can't give you an exact page number. The gist of the sidebar is that the descriptions of powers' effects are largely implict to allow some narrative flexibility. The example they give is you could use Move or Bind out as an out-of-turn incidental using a destiny point (IIRC the example isn't in 'structured time', but I recall them using similar language) to save a party member about to fall off a cliff.

And as I said before, it's not directly applicable, but, in my interpretation, supports some laxity/flexibility in which powers can be used in various situations, e.g. the attack described above could be made using either the Bind or Move power.

Freaking A, every time I get into a discussion about this system, I feel like I'm interpreting some obscure religious text...

I am still not sure about using move as a direct attack, I feel like it is against the dirt of the rules somehow. Especially as it would also allow you to get around the skill check normally required to hit a target. Maybe it could be handled as an opposed check? Opposed by athletics or Coordination?

How is it getting around the skill check required to hit a target? It specifically states you need a skill check to hit a target. It is not an opposed check, same as hitting someone with your blaster isn't.

I don't see how a high discipline would help against being thrown around. It works well as the opposed skill for Powers like influence or misdirect. But I was thinking Athletics would allow the target to 'roll' with the impact.

If it is the target you trying to damage (by hitting it against the wall, floor or whatever) then you can't miss so no roll would be needed by default.

I see your point, but I think including the Discipline check allows keeps things balanced; It wouldn't seem 'fair' the target to take automatic damage. If faced with a player insistent on this kind of interpretation, I think I would limit the damage to the force points remaining after all the upgrades were activated, to tone it down a bit. For the opposed roll, I think I would do (10) [Target Silhouette] + uncanceled successes. The first term should correspond to what's in the book, the second may not, but seems consistent with other combat checks.

Regardless, I think it's 'fair' for an unwilling target to be allowed to, in some fashion, resist a force power.

Is this how the range mods work? I'm still AFB, but I don't recall this being the interpretation/wording.

If it is the target you trying to damage (by hitting it against the wall, floor or whatever) then you can't miss so no roll would be needed by default.

I see your point, but I think including the Discipline check allows keeps things balanced; It wouldn't seem 'fair' the target to take automatic damage. If faced with a player insistent on this kind of interpretation, I think I would limit the damage to the force points remaining after all the upgrades were activated, to tone it down a bit. For the opposed roll, I think I would do (10) [Target Silhouette] + uncanceled successes. The first term should correspond to what's in the book, the second may not, but seems consistent with other combat checks.

Regardless, I think it's 'fair' for an unwilling target to be allowed to, in some fashion, resist a force power.

I don't see how a high discipline would help against being thrown around. It works well as the opposed skill for Powers like influence or misdirect. But I was thinking Athletics would allow the target to 'roll' with the impact.

Totally legitimate point. Resilience and Coordination could also be reasonable choices for the opposition skill, based on the situation.

I think this is why the range upgrades are a bit odd for move as well, increasing the distance you can move an object to but not from.

Is this how the range mods work? I'm still AFB, but I don't recall this being the interpretation/wording.

As for the general discussion I think you are spot on about allowing an unwilling target to resist (except maybe minions) it looked to me like there was a possible way around that with move.

I don't see how a high discipline would help against being thrown around. It works well as the opposed skill for Powers like influence or misdirect. But I was thinking Athletics would allow the target to 'roll' with the impact.

I believe that Discipline is mainly used to resist if the target is also a Force User, otherwise it is whatever skill the GM feels most appropriate. I myself used Athletics as the opposing skill to resist someones weapons being pulled away with Move. However, I only use the resistance rules for PC's and important NPC's.