Greetings, brethern:

will puzzling around skills for an adventure ("what skills will a group of rank 3 likely have?") I stumbled about something that dazzles me to no small amount.

If you are looking up The 4th Adept rank (Inditor) you will find the Talents of

Meleeweapons (Shock) 200xp
Swift Attack 100 xp
Armsmaster 200 xp
Marksman 300xp

What are these guys?
While I know that (due to the costs) it is highly unlikely the "bread & beans" of this class, it still raises my eyebrow. I expected something like "Scholastic Lore (Cryptology)", not something that would help a Scholar to schock-maul somebody to the ground or to pick up a rifle to put down somebody at range.

Is an Inditor more like a "private eye" (whom might trading blows and bullets while looking things up)?

IMHO its to give the poor guys the ability to keep up in combat. I mean lets face it, in alot of dark heresy games there will be a point where an adept finds himself with a weapon in hand and the enemy not caring that he knows twice what they do. I think they are given access to these talents to have the ability to keep themselves alive and when it comes down to it, be somewhat useful in combat. I mean, they wont get any S, T, WS, or BS, upgrades for cheap, so the ability to improve the natural ability to use the talents will be slim.

They gotta have something to do once the research is done and the ass-whoopin' begins.

Yep, Dark Heresy is after a wargame and not an investigative game in the grim darkness of the Calixis sector.

EVERY character is essentially a gun-platform and rightly so. This is 40k after all, where everyone is festooned with skullz and headtubes and pretty much rages hard all the time (or lurks about in the shadows looking moody and anxst-ridden before throwing off the cloak to reveal a hard-poundin' combat chassis).

All that boring 'investigation' stuff, and indeed the pesky 'roleplaying' just gets in the way of, or at best sets up the GUNPLAY which is the point of the game.

Adepts rock hard as they are gun-bunnies who get all the investigative skills (so they can find the bad guys in the first place) and also get psyker skills at higher ranks. Awesome.

Hehe...

You're right, it seems bizarre indeed.

But seriously, take a look at EVERY career.

They are all measured by and have access to combat foci as part of their core career progression.

That's Warhammer 40k for you...

Interesting, just last night I watched Flashforward episode 3 and suddenly realized that whole planet 'blacking out' would be a great Dark Heresy plot. You know investigative mystery. Correlating data, bouncing all around the sector following clues and doing some ass-whopping along the way. Key word is some. But given the gun-craziness and nazi-porn of the DH that investigation would most likely end with everybody shouting and shooting and generally making a lot of noise and shoving Aquila into people's faces and stuff. And latter building concentration camps for Eldars because they are obviously behind this ghastly deed.

Adept in my campaign had a lousy time. She wanted to play a customs official that was good at you know things that customs officials are good at. Simply there were no rules she could exploit and we played through written scenarios that I had to tweek monstrously all the time in order to make them interesting for an Adept. So by saying: You know they have to make the Adept into the killing machine at 4th rank so that it could be playable as a class you are basically saying that they have failed with that class and with the investigative aspect of the game.

Or right now as I write this, I am watching Firefly. Can someone build for example Inara by this DH rules as they are written? And no, she is not Scum or God forbid Assassin or is she an Adept? Couldn't they go more gently with tried and tested good, old WFRP careers or something like Burning Wheel or Traveller.

Look I am not complaining (well I guess I do a little) but I am just saying that DH is in some aspects like Advanced Inquisitor only you do not have to use minis.

RT has a different premise and I expect that even if the rules are completely the same there will be room for role-playing and other stuff besides shooting at people.

Cat that Walked by Himself said:

I would build Inara as a Cleric. In Firefly, she's respected, well educated, and a great people person. In 40k, that would be a Cleric. You could focus less on the religious aspects of the career or you could go strait up 40k weird and embrace the concept of a religious *****. There's got to be a whole small sect within the ministorium who have taken serving the Emperor and His Servants (those of high station only within the Adapta) to whole new levels after all. ;-)

As for Adepts with combat skills and the whole gun-porn of DH: it is 40k after all. If there was a dearth in senseless killing, a lack of staggering disregard for human life, and no one ran around strapped to the gills with chainsaws and BFG's, then it wouldn't be 40k, it would be, at best, fading suns.

I don't see Adepts who can (more expensively then others, but still can) get some nice combat abilities as being weird. To survive in 40k (especially in the service of the Inquisition) you have to learn to defend your self and put others down, and it doesn't matter who you are. The entire Imperial civilization is a militarized one. War and killing is in their blood, every last and everyone can do it. The utterly helpless are already dead (probably by one of the fellas that can kill).

40k has a long tradition of being fairly tongue in cheek (less now then in earlier years, but it's still there). As such, you should feel free to revel in the idea that if you don't return that library book in time, you should fear the head librarian, fear them with the deepest mortal dread! On fact, I remember reading on a pdf for Inquisitor (for an arbiter I believe) where one of the listed Imperial Laws that was punishable by death was failing to return something borrowed from an Imperial Library in the allotted time frame. Tongue in cheek.

Beyond that, the universe of 40k is insane! It's an asylum where the staff is on life support and the inmates are running the show. Revel in it. My players have gotten a bit weary of vast Librariums and their deep info-tombs, some of which contain wings and passages which haven't been explored or cataloged for hundreds of years where mad clerks and strange clans of deranged Word Eaters lurk in the shadows waiting to waylay witless scribes who had taken a wrong turn and had gotten lost or who had foolishly decided to plum the deeper tombs for a bit of lore not referenced in the last 800 years without sufficient back-up or armaments. To survive expeditions into the ancient Labyrinths of Lost Lore, the adepts must become, at the very least, somewhat accustomed to handling themselves in violent confrontations...

In the end, the careers in Dark Heresy aren't meant to be highly restrictive in what they can or can't do. Most of them can do what ever any of the others can. It might just be more expensive for them XP-wise. They are more like suggestions on how a character might grow and not a solid statement on what such characters must be. If a player wishes to play a more martial adept, one who has grown up in the Schola and is more of a warrior-scholar then a meek scribe, why shouldn't they be able to do such? Not all adepts are bespeckled old fellows with ink stained fingers and wild gray hair. Some ore able bodied militant scholars who've studied the theories of war and death and have become somewhat proficient at it themselves. Not as proficient as a Guardsmen, but still nothing to sneeze at either.

EDIT: And for anouther pop culture reference, Indiana Jones would be an Adept, and, let's face it, he kicks ass... and don't even get me started on Doc Savage ;-)

Furthermore, people working for the Inquisition can get Ordos training to become at least moderately badass. See Carl motherfuckin' Thonius from the Ravenor series.

Yeah, I'm sure the ordos will give you illicate warp drugs that infuse a daemon to you.

Well, the term "Inditor" is derived from "indictment," so I assume they're the Adminustram's version of Arbites. Basically, they're DH's rentacops.

I'd see the Inditor as something more akin to the IRS Criminal division or other records based investigators for law enforcement. They're not supposed to get into firefights - but they do tend to annoy frequently armed and unreasonable people.

Hodgepodge said:

Thank you very much, hodgepodge. This explains something to me...or better: it helps to explain something away for me . Do you have any further information about the term "indictment"? I do not know the word at all. Many thanks!

@Luddite
Yes, I know that every other character is laced in combat skills.. but to be true, I would have expected that with every other class!

Assasine, Guard & Arbitrator = Obvious why!
Scum = they are the basis for bandits & stubjacks (while the starting lay out is a little VERY gun-heavy)
Cleric = the imperial cult is far form being a peaceful religion and more like an institutional crusade
Psyker = some of them will be trained as combat psykers early on
Tech-Priest = hm.. a little hard, but perhaps it has somethinig to do with "huging the machines in every form", and most technik of mankin is war related

But even my suspense of disbelief asks for a break when I have to explain why a bugworm is supposed to know how to use a shockmaul.
Again, thanks to hodgepodge for the nudge!

Remember the Untouchables were treasury agents.

While i imagine a that most adepts (NPC's) won't even have these abilities if posted on nice safe Imperial worlds there will also be a good number on less settled planets where everyone is in danger and agents of the Imperial oppression are at great risk.

Dr. Indiana Jones, Archeologist, Historian and Teacher.

And he just happens to be proficient with a variety of melee and ranged weapons, and regularly gets involved in fistfights, shootouts and high speed chases with various kinds of vehicles.

Darth Smeg said:

Well true, he can waste Nazi's like Clint Eastwood, whip 'Johnny-Arab' into shape and give Muhammed Ali a run for his money...

But he sure as eggs ain't an archaeologist !! Nor a historian. And i wouldn't want to be in a class he taught.

At best he's a treasure hunter, tomb robber, and old fashioned antiquarian...

Personally in DH terms i'd place him possibly in the Adept class (after the latest movie he's picked up Forbidden Lore Xenos and a few corruption points i suspect), or actually more likely a Scum with elite advances in Forbidden and Scholastic Lores. Oh, and he's got about 38 Fate Points (either that or fridges really CAN withstand nuclear bomb blasts!!!)

An indictment is a formal legal accusation which initiates a criminal case, or less formally, any serious criticism, accusation, etc.

There's more background on Wikipedia, and you'd probably be able to find info in legal histories and such: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indictment

Personally, I've often thought of the Inditors as a sort of security and/or enforcement branch for the administratum. They insure tithes are accounted for and guarded; they secure administratum facilities and provide for the safety of scholars operating on official administratum business away from the more "civilized" reaches of the Imperium.

Honestly, they are bookworms with a guns and a inkling to use them. Recall if you will... " Knowledge is power, guard it well. " Why rely on outsiders when you can justify your own security and enforcement arm via Imperial Law.

-=Brother Praetus=-

@Graver

I would build Inara as a Cleric. In Firefly, she's respected, well educated, and a great people person. In 40k, that would be a Cleric. You could focus less on the religious aspects of the career or you could go strait up 40k weird and embrace the concept of a religious *****. There's got to be a whole small sect within the ministorium who have taken serving the Emperor and His Servants (those of high station only within the Adapta) to whole new levels after all. ;-)

I'd say Nobleborn Scum, although a cleric on the Hierophant route might work too if you find enough social skills to stay away from the weapon stuff...

As for the rest of the crew... Mal would be a scum/gunslinger, Zoe guardsman, Jayne guardsman as well, Wash... well, Voidmaster, if we're allowed to borrow, Kaylee scum/reclaimator and Simon fits pretty well as adept/chirurgeon. The tricky ones would be Book and River - Book would need some Cleric/Assassin hybrid (social assassin hasn't got enough religious skills and redemptionist cleric is too much In-Your-Face!) and River a more agility-oriented psyker.

@Cat

Adept in my campaign had a lousy time. She wanted to play a customs official that was good at you know things that customs officials are good at. Simply there were no rules she could exploit and we played through written scenarios that I had to tweek monstrously all the time in order to make them interesting for an Adept. So by saying: You know they have to make the Adept into the killing machine at 4th rank so that it could be playable as a class you are basically saying that they have failed with that class and with the investigative aspect of the game.

Er... no. It just means there is the potential for an adept player interested in combat to not totally miss out on that aspect of the game. And thinking about how much table time combat often takes, there are quite a lot of games where, yes, I wouldn't like to spend that time with "Oh, my turn again? Yeah, I still cower in cover on Full Defense."

As for the "failed with that aspect of the game", I think it's not quite appropriate. There are some investigative parts in the published adventures. The problem comes when you have a character with a very specific focus - there are obviously not too many adventures that can be solved by your extensive knowledge about the Imperial Customs Regulations.

I'd have to agree with those saying that they're akin to the IRS criminal division. Perhaps more in line with 40k, they may go after breaches of Administratum protocol which are not technically illegal in the sense that would require Arbites involvement, but nevertheless possibly involve armed conflict to enforce. Sort of like the Skittari, but for the bureacracy.

Edit: For Firefly, Mal would have to be a Guardsman. His military past is what defines him. He'd be a Sergeant, of course. Zoe likewise, Jane scum (taking the background that lowers fellowship), Kaylee, Wash, and Simon various types of Adept (which make good pilots and have lots of tech-use skills with the right skill selection). River would be a Mind-Wiped Psyker using the Templar alternate rank, with powers drawn from telepathy and divination, as well as enough insanity points to give her a phobia which prevents combat under most circumstances. Book is just a straight Cleric, maybe using the Black Priest alternate rank for more combat skills, but 40k Clerics get plenty of those.

Cifer said:

True. People seem to discount the power of adepts, both martially and their far more subtle but destructive power of the pencil pusher. Perhaps Cat's player simply packed it in before she found a chance to shine or perhaps the game was set in areas where the Administratum was weak. What ever the case, paper filling pencil pushers have some crazy power in 40k; they run the show and if they don't like you, they can make your life utterly unlivable.

The adept in my group has ruined several lives through his vengeful filing and his Common Lore (Administratum), Scholastic Lore (beaurocracy)+20, and Peer (Administratum) are some of the most used weapons in his arsenal. He's gotten ship's charters temporarily changed, gotten people lost, erased people from existence, committed identity theft, and paper-bullied many people into complying with his demands... and they even got a receipt for it.

In more martial encounters, he's become the groups snipper. A best quality las gun w/scope (natch), a bandoleer of Hot-Shot packs, a stummer, and a chamoline cloak, and the stuttering pencil pushing medicae becomes one hell of a snipper who saved the groups bacon last session when he took out a maiden of pain and the false prophet that was activating it from an adjacent rooftop (although he was using his bolt gun for that one, still...).

Of course, I reckon it's all in how the GM runs the game.

Hodgepodge said:

I would have to disagree with you on a few of those (what nerd can't resist debating what the Firefly crew would be in X setting?)

While Mal's past military career defines him, it's not as much a "guardsmen" as a failed idealist freedom fighter. You have to look beyond the "fluff" so-to-speak of the careers and look at the role those of a career are to fill. Mal really doesn't fit the Guardsmen mold at all. He's all finesse; a charismatic and scheming rogue. He's a Scum who was once a sargent on the losing side of a war and is now just a smuggler wishing for better days. He was a Scum in the military and now he's a Scum with a military background.

While Jane is scum, Jane wouldn't be a Scum. He's answer to just about anything seems to be to shoot it with the biggest gun on hand. Failing that, then hitting things really hard with what ever else is on hand seems to be his answer to anything at all. That's pretty much it. That's his skill sets -hitting things and shooting things. That's what he dose. That would be a Guardsmen. Not all Guardsmen are military folks. Some are ganger heavies, some are bounty hunters, body gaurds, or anyone else who really only feel alive when hitting and shooting things with really big other things. The one thing that all those on the guardsmen path are, however, is really good with big guns and hitting things really hard. It's what they're there for, it's what they do whether they do it for some military group, a bunch of criminals, or just for their own amusement.

I think the Templer alt rank for River would be pushing it a bit far. To be River, all she really needs is Divine Shot, Precognitive Dodge (read the description and tell me that isn't describing River when she goes all shooty), Preternatural Awareness, Psychometry, and Personal Augury. Granted, the errata kind of screws her, but nothing's perfect I guess. Either way, those would be all she needed as a base, though some of the other powers could definitly fit as well. As for her mental state, I would say that she would have a special trait called Incomplete Mindscrub which would simply mean that instead of one or two things from her past causing her to roll on the Trauma Table, half a bucket load of completely random things (hair, sticks, knives, songs, blood, words..) would cause her to have to roll on that table (roughly one object per scene or so). Of course, a virtual bucket load of IP's wouldn't hurt either.

Book doesn't really need any more combat skills then what's offered by the Cleric Class. He's good in hand to hand and he's great with a gun. He would just need to max out his BS (easy for a cleric as it's one of their cheep characteristics) and take the Hierophant track for Sharp Shooter, Takedown, and Scholastic Lore (Tacta imperialis) and that would more then cover the martial side of him from what I've seen.

If anyone's a Guardsman, it's Jayne. Best fighter in there, unless River gets triggered. And Kaylee's a techpriestess.

Luddite said:

Dr. Jones is indeed a professor of archaeology, teaching at Barnett College in The Last Crusade. (Source: Wikipedia)

Of course, he doesn't really exist, and the character is full of flaws, but hey, as models for RPG characters in a sci-fi/fantasy/horror/space-opera goes, he's fair game

Nigh7gaun7 said:

Actually, I would place Kaylee as more akin to a Reclaimator , and not a full-on member of the Mechanicus . Technical savvy without any official education on the matter.

-=Brother Praetus=-

Brother Praetus said:

Actually I just like the idea of stupid sexy tech-priest.

Nigh7gaun7 said:

Hey, now, she's not stupid. She's just young.

I would agree with the tech-priest aspect though. She's just a young one, no higher then a lowly Engineseer (it's what she bloody well dose after all) and, beyond that, she dose have an incredible love for the engine and ship on the whole that is almost bordering on technophilia. Sure, in the show she doesn't have a face full of metal, but the show wasn't set in 40k. If she were ported over, I can definitly see her as an unusual tech-priest (what tech-priest isn't though) who's young, a bit more bubbly and emotional then she ought to be... why do you think she's stuck on a ship held together with tape and a prayer making a paltry living off of smuggling? It's not because she'd be the ideal candidate for promotion up the ranks so she can administer a forge world or some such...

No its not that she's young, its that she's innocent in the truest sence of the word.

Kaylee is open, honest, unpretentious...

And she's definately a tech-priest...having that 'mystical' connection to her machines.

Why she pines after that idiot doctor and doesn't get it on with Jayne is beyond me...

Someone HAS to bring back Firefly...its just too good...