remember fellas, when we're talking about jousting efficiency boost don't mean ****

I can't speak to the stats of the figure, but in a recent game a boost was able to get my T-70 out or arc of the opposing figure by moving past it and left me just barley in arc - so boost does have a meaning in the joust.

I will make a dedicated T-70 Mathwing post later, but for now here are some spoilers.

T-70 X-wing MathWing Cliff Notes

• 3/2/3/3 is worth 19.9 points at PS1. (I have had these numbers since December 2014 when I proposed a free Hull as a fix for the T-65 X-wing in my House Rules)
• At 24 points, this yields a PS2 derated jousting efficiency of 86.2%.
• The corresponding required efficiency (negating the value of the PS boost from PS1 to PS2) to break even with a PS1 TIE Fighter is 140.8%.

The closest comparison to the T-70 X-wings are the generic StarVipers. They are very close to each other on the price:performance jousting curve, and functionally they are very similar when you break them down.

Starviper MathWing Cliff Notes

• 3/3/4/1 is worth 21 points at PS1.
• At 25 points, this yields a PS1 jousting efficiency of 84.0%.
• The corresponding required efficiency is 137.2% relative to a PS1 TIE Fighter.

T-70 X-wing vs StarViper comparison

• Very similar absolute required efficiency.
• T-70 is PS2 vs the StarViper's PS1.
• T-70 dial: has 4K and Taon Roll (modified K-turn) instead of 3 Segnors left/right. The T-70 loses the 1 hard turns but gains the 3 hard turns. Otherwise the dials are identical.
• T-70 loses the evade action relative to the StarViper.
• T-70 gains the astromech slot and the "tech" upgrade slot relative to the StarViper.

I personally think the Segnors' ability to alter the direction heading in 2 different ways is probably worth more than the lateral movement choices of K-turn + Talon Roll, but either way it's not a significant value difference.

Early conclusion: it is basically a StarViper with a free bump to PS2. The dial is functionally similar, evade and upgrades generally don't get taken by generics anyway. You may draw your own conclusions as to how much of an impact the generic T-70s will have on the competitive meta.

As a relevant comparison, a Y-wing with TLT is 24 points and jousting efficiency of 88.2% assuming it always gets a shot at a non-autothrusters target.

This makes me sad, they have all of this data on hand I imagine it would be on there best interest top make the x-wing efficient, but alas they do not.

Because the math is not the whole game.

"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck. "

When I rolled 4 crits the others day, was that skill or luck?

_{I know what I want it to be}

This makes me sad, they have all of this data on hand I imagine it would be on there best interest top make the x-wing efficient, but alas they do not.

Well they made it inefficient as a jouster. The fact that it comes with a free Engine Upgrade and can take autothrusters makes it pretty good at chasing fat turrets.

It has comparable jousting efficiency as other ships that can boost and have AT (e.g. Interceptors and A-wings).

What the T-70 offers is more meat which makes it a good answer to the 4xTLT lists everyone's worried about.

What I'd like to know is if the 24 pt X-70 has a lower Jousting value can the math tell us about the jousting value of a 26 pt X-70 with AT? I like the boost but AT can make such a big difference in survivability.

Reading the above quotes from MJ on the value of a PS2 X-70 is exactly why I don't put much faith in the math, because who will ever run a naked rookie X-70? It's not a TIE Fighter. Add to that availability and cost of upgrade can turn a slightly under efficient ship into a quite efficient ship. What's the jousting value of a of a 33 pt PS4 X-70 with PTL, BB8 and AT which can take 3 actions in a turn (without stress) including a pre-maneuver BR? And what's the formula for calculating a pre-maneuver BR into a jousting value? I think anyone who considers using MJs math should first understand the limitations of it. All of that said the work MJ has done is an incredible resource to get for free. Thank you.

I'm starting to toy with Wired Autothruster Red Vets- on a Troll or Kturn, a defensive rerolled focus either gives you an evade or an autothruster-able blank.

Reading the above quotes from MJ on the value of a PS2 X-70 is exactly why I don't put much faith in the math, because who will ever run a naked rookie X-70? It's not a TIE Fighter. Add to that availability and cost of upgrade can turn a slightly under efficient ship into a quite efficient ship. What's the jousting value of a of a 33 pt PS4 X-70 with PTL, BB8 and AT which can take 3 actions in a turn (without stress) including a pre-maneuver BR? And what's the formula for calculating a pre-maneuver BR into a jousting value? I think anyone who considers using MJs math should first understand the limitations of it. All of that said the work MJ has done is an incredible resource to get for free. Thank you.

That's exactly it. EXACTLY. Jousting efficiency means nothing if you don't understand what to do with it. Can you leverage a ship to get an extra 40% out of it? I can and have; can you do it consistently when dice are involved? There's the real question. My answer right now is sometimes. Sometimes seldom works at the extreme end of competitive, sometimes works in standard tourny play, and often works in casual. If that's enough for you, then great; that doesn't quite cut it most days for me but I'm willing to be wrong.

Also of note: I hate rebels. Hate. Yep. No shields. All guts. For the glory of the empire!

Because the math is not the whole game.

It isn't. But it's a useful tool. You'd be a bit silly to ignore it.

Let's look at a flowchart:

What should I do with this ship?

A) If jousting efficiency = or > 100%, joust with it.

If jousting efficiency < 100%, go to B

B) does it have a turret?

Yes: use turret to avoid jousting. Stay away from corners.

No: go to C

C) does it have munitions?

Yes: go to D

No: Go to E

D) are munitions any good?

Yes: really? Are you sure? We've been hurt before. Don't you remember Wave 3 promising to end the Han Shot First meta? *sigh* ok. This time it's different. Take munitions.

No: Go to E

E) Can it arc dodge?

Yes: slap AutoThrusters and PTL on that bad boy and have at!

No: go to F

F) does it have any unique strengths?

Yes: well! Do that! It should be fun!

No: I'm sorry you're playing with the T-65. I hope FFG fixes it soon.

Ultimately, math underlays this game. It can help us figure out the difference between "I'm terrible with this ship", and "this ship is terrible".

MathWing is important because it helps us figure out what role a ship needs to be fulfilling in the game. I remember back when people loudly insisted that the TIE Advanced wasn't bad because they had fun using Darth. MathWing said otherwise. MatgWing was right.

Sadly, MathWing can't actually make me a better pilot. I still lose far too often. But I go down swinging.

Well they made it inefficient as a jouster. The fact that it comes with a free Engine Upgrade and can take autothrusters makes it pretty good at chasing fat turrets.

It's a real shame the cheapest T-70 and StarViper didn't come in at 23 points. Being able to run 4 of them with Autothrusters might not have been fully viable, but it would have been fun.

I will make a dedicated T-70 Mathwing post later, but for now here are some spoilers.

T-70 X-wing MathWing Cliff Notes

• 3/2/3/3 is worth 19.9 points at PS1. (I have had these numbers since December 2014 when I proposed a free Hull as a fix for the T-65 X-wing in my House Rules)
• At 24 points, this yields a PS2 derated jousting efficiency of 86.2%.
• The corresponding required efficiency (negating the value of the PS boost from PS1 to PS2) to break even with a PS1 TIE Fighter is 140.8%.

The closest comparison to the T-70 X-wings are the generic StarVipers. They are very close to each other on the price:performance jousting curve, and functionally they are very similar when you break them down.

Starviper MathWing Cliff Notes

• 3/3/4/1 is worth 21 points at PS1.
• At 25 points, this yields a PS1 jousting efficiency of 84.0%.
• The corresponding required efficiency is 137.2% relative to a PS1 TIE Fighter.

T-70 X-wing vs StarViper comparison

• Very similar absolute required efficiency.
• T-70 is PS2 vs the StarViper's PS1.
• T-70 dial: has 4K and Taon Roll (modified K-turn) instead of 3 Segnors left/right. The T-70 loses the 1 hard turns but gains the 3 hard turns. Otherwise the dials are identical.
• T-70 loses the evade action relative to the StarViper.
• T-70 gains the astromech slot and the "tech" upgrade slot relative to the StarViper.

I personally think the Segnors' ability to alter the direction heading in 2 different ways is probably worth more than the lateral movement choices of K-turn + Talon Roll, but either way it's not a significant value difference.

Early conclusion: it is basically a StarViper with a free bump to PS2. The dial is functionally similar, evade and upgrades generally don't get taken by generics anyway. You may draw your own conclusions as to how much of an impact the generic T-70s will have on the competitive meta.

As a relevant comparison, a Y-wing with TLT is 24 points and jousting efficiency of 88.2% assuming it always gets a shot at a non-autothrusters target.

Interesting notes but I thought the Starvipers action bar was Focus, TL, Boost, BR. No evade, right? Still miss one action but a different one.

Oops, yes thank you, barrel roll not evade.

T-70 X-wing vs StarViper comparison

• Very similar absolute required efficiency.
• T-70 is PS2 vs the StarViper's PS1.
• T-70 dial: has 4K and Taon Roll (modified K-turn) instead of 3 Segnors left/right. The T-70 loses the 1 hard turns but gains the 3 hard turns. Otherwise the dials are identical.
• T-70 loses the evade action relative to the StarViper.
• T-70 gains the astromech slot and the "tech" upgrade slot relative to the StarViper.

This is pretty similar to my back-of-the-envelope work (which I mention as a relief to me, not a comentary on your model). In comparison to the T-65, the T-70's extra shield makes up for the T-65's existing deficit, which means the T-70 is counting on boost and its dial (and possibly access to the tech upgrade slot, although that's tricky) to make up the 3-point difference between the two ships.

I am still optimistic that could happen: I think the K/Tallon combination on the dial makes it more like the Aggressor's dial than the StarViper. But the examples of both the TIE Defender and the StarViper suggest that may be a tall order.

This makes me sad, they have all of this data on hand I imagine it would be on there best interest top make the x-wing efficient, but alas they do not.

I'm sure there are a number of constraints and considerations for FFG in addition to MJ's work.

Because the math is not the whole game.

No, it isn't, but it's an important fundamental consideration. For instance, think back to the dark ages (that is, three or four days ago) when people were railing against how broken the T-70 is in comparison to the X-wing. After all, a Shield Upgrade and an Engine Upgrade cost 8 points together, so a Rookie with an extra shield and boost should cost 29! Obviously that's not going to work, and the cheapest generic T-70 should land somewhere near the 22-point B-wing.

But how close is it to a B-wing, really? Math can help answer that question.

Doesn't the T-70 also have the Astromech slot?

I'd think that there should be some mathematical adjustment for Shields over Hull with the current amount of crit giving methods out there.

If you only want to consider jousting numbers to determine the viability of the ships you take, what do you do when you play? Just fly straight at your opponent over and over again?

Turrets have dominated the game for a long time and skewed the meta. They will be seen in lesser numbers in the future. Without turrets all the time, pure jousting numbers will be less important. Also, some ships that were relegated to the storage kit will be seen again. The Kihraxz Fighter will have a good impact on Scum. I've already read a list of someone who read with a K fighter and Scyk list. The Kihraxz Fighter will make other ships viable in lists that weren't able to work before. I think the meta is going to open and we will see old ships used for the first time.

aye aye,

guys the thread is about the numbers surrounding the T-70. There's no need to worry about its viability when it has access to a punch of fun tech (esp thrusters) that the T-65 dreams of, but ito pure numbers no its jousting value is quite poor and therefore the naked generic is more than likely a poor investment that will not compete in the slightest with the Blue Squadron Pilot.

The T-70 does indeed have worse efficiency than the X-wing. But it also has boost and a completely new maneuver that makes it a lot less predictable in a joust. We'll have to see how it turns out in play, but I'm optimistic.

I concur

It has been pointed out that the 'old' X-wing rookie needed an extra hull to be competitive at 21 points, and the 'new' x-wing has an extra hitpoint BUT a higher cost, that glosses over that it also has BOOST.

I think the POTENTIAL problem with the T-70 (note POTENTIAL problem, not yet sure if there even is a problem with it's cost) is that it may be paying to be an okay jouster and an okay dodger rather than being really strong in either of those rolls. If you are wanting to just pay for a jouster, then you are going to find more cost effective alternatives that aren't paying for a boost ability you might not ever use.

But I also think that T-70 has to be priced considering the potency of current and future astromech units.

Not Astromech units. X-Wing title my friend. Available to all X-Wings, old and new.

They have good Astromechs already, but when they get a title buffing the T-65, the T-70 should not become overpowered. Thats why they costed it like they did!

They have good Astromechs already, but when they get a title buffing the T-65, the T-70 should not become overpowered. Thats why they costed it like they did!

About 5 minutes after I saw the leak of the T-70 and realized how overpriced it is as a Jouster, I started hoping that a standalone T-70 blister would have a title which would make both X-Wings into better value propositions. I know FFG has enjoyed putting titles into their standard blisters in recent waves, so it wouldn't surprise me to see one with the T-70.

Assuming we get a standalone T-70 Blister.

If both X-Wings are poor jousters, but the T-70 can be built as a flanker, then there's room to give them the same title, and have it only buff the Jouster function. Make them a touch more survivable by giving them a free Hull upgrade.

Or go hog wild: when defending against an attack from within the defenders firing arc, add one evade to your result.

Either of those titles would make both X-Wings into better jousters, but neither would really touch the arc dodging capacity that the T-70 might have. Since Arc Dodging is something done best by higher PS pilots (who have their own abilities), that's probably pretty ok.

They have good Astromechs already, but when they get a title buffing the T-65, the T-70 should not become overpowered. Thats why they costed it like they did!

About 5 minutes after I saw the leak of the T-70 and realized how overpriced it is as a Jouster, I started hoping that a standalone T-70 blister would have a title which would make both X-Wings into better value propositions. I know FFG has enjoyed putting titles into their standard blisters in recent waves, so it wouldn't surprise me to see one with the T-70.

Assuming we get a standalone T-70 Blister.

If both X-Wings are poor jousters, but the T-70 can be built as a flanker, then there's room to give them the same title, and have it only buff the Jouster function. Make them a touch more survivable by giving them a free Hull upgrade.

Or go hog wild: when defending against an attack from within the defenders firing arc, add one evade to your result.

Either of those titles would make both X-Wings into better jousters, but neither would really touch the arc dodging capacity that the T-70 might have. Since Arc Dodging is something done best by higher PS pilots (who have their own abilities), that's probably pretty ok.

I think the problem of direction is if you make either of them better jousters, you get into the B-wing's territory, and I don't think any solution ends well for them. I don't think the rebels need two jousters in the same points category. The rebels do not need an oversized Z-95. They need something more interesting.

They have good Astromechs already, but when they get a title buffing the T-65, the T-70 should not become overpowered. Thats why they costed it like they did!

About 5 minutes after I saw the leak of the T-70 and realized how overpriced it is as a Jouster, I started hoping that a standalone T-70 blister would have a title which would make both X-Wings into better value propositions. I know FFG has enjoyed putting titles into their standard blisters in recent waves, so it wouldn't surprise me to see one with the T-70.

Assuming we get a standalone T-70 Blister.

If both X-Wings are poor jousters, but the T-70 can be built as a flanker, then there's room to give them the same title, and have it only buff the Jouster function. Make them a touch more survivable by giving them a free Hull upgrade.

Or go hog wild: when defending against an attack from within the defenders firing arc, add one evade to your result.

Either of those titles would make both X-Wings into better jousters, but neither would really touch the arc dodging capacity that the T-70 might have. Since Arc Dodging is something done best by higher PS pilots (who have their own abilities), that's probably pretty ok.

I think the problem of direction is if you make either of them better jousters, you get into the B-wing's territory, and I don't think any solution ends well for them. I don't think the rebels need two jousters in the same points category. The rebels do not need an oversized Z-95. They need something more interesting.

I have proposed a lot of different solutions on how to fix the X-Wing in this Forum, and not really stuff making it a better jouster. So i won't go further into this. But yes a title with a buff for especially the T-65 is still something i really hope will be in that T-70 blister. If that explains the apparent brought up overcosting of the T-70 as a jouster (nothing that i have stated, not having enough experience on this yet) and fixes it in one go, even better.

I would much prefer having two capable jousters in X and B-Wing than to see the T-65 being left where it is now (collecting dust on the shelf) though, if FFG could not come up with something interesting, i can tell you that.

Except it isn't collecting dust. Pretty certain I saw Wedge and a Red make top 16 at the Nova open.

I'm pretty sure pre-Raider Vader made a top 8 at one of the Regionals. Doesn't mean the Advanced didn't need help, either.

I think the T-70 expansion does seem like the logical place for an X-wing fix. Only problem is we'd want two titles in the pack, and that doesn't leave a lot of room with 5 Upgrade cards to a pack and 3 Upgrade slots on the T-70 (One of which will probably be Wired or Guidance computer to make acquiring copies of those cards easier).

I would be very very surprised to see an X-Wing fix in a T-70 Blister. I would expect an Aces box once FFG sells their stock of old core sets down a little.

That way you can still get Luke, Biggs etc and if you already have them you will pick up the pack for the fix anyway.

This is purely what I would do if I were running FFG.

Kris

I would be very very surprised to see an X-Wing fix in a T-70 Blister. I would expect an Aces box once FFG sells their stock of old core sets down a little.

That way you can still get Luke, Biggs etc and if you already have them you will pick up the pack for the fix anyway.

This is purely what I would do if I were running FFG.

Kris

But, that's not what they would do. So far, they keep everything in print for the current edition. I'm not even sure we have confirmation that they will let old packs for LCGs go out of print once they rotate out of legality.

FFG knows the money maker they have. They will keep on printing this plasticrack until we run out of money or they just have all the monies on Erff. This is also why the prequel and sequel era sub factions were an inevitability. Easy, easy money for the house of mouse and FFG.

Psst... They are two completely different ships as far as the game is concerned. Is anyone really thinking they will just stop printing bwings anytime a soon?