I've been eagerly anticipating an update on the efficiency of the T-70 in relation to B-wing (or even Y-wings).

Things like joust value and survivability (two less hull or shields with an extra defense dice).

Has anyone crunched it? If so, please direct me! If not, any math Jedi that can provide the calculations?

sorry, not a mathematician

I do remember juggler saying that the rookie pilot would have been viable at 21 points if it had 4 hull, 2 shields. At those stats, it could apparently compete with the B-wing as a decent jouster

The T-70 has those stats...for 3 more points

it is quite possible that the generic T-70 is a worse jouster than the generic T-65

If you think that fickle, you aren't building it right.

It's got the ability to be an arc-dodger, an ordnance delivery vehicle and a tanky fighter.

Math wing is poodoo. efficiency comes from how you fly your ships, and how well your dice rolls are.

It's still not a great jouster and the benefits of this guy lean more toward higher PS. I like the named pilots, don't so much like the generics.

Math wing is poodoo. efficiency comes from how you fly your ships, and how well your dice rolls are.

For every single thing capable of dropping dice, the results are the same - average. Also, we can assume that opponents who bother to think about list building to the point where they are concerned about the viability of ships, that they will be relatively equal ability.

So, effectiveness of the given ships in a list and the interactions that occur in that list are what turns the probability of success in favor of one of the opponents.

Math is not "poo doo." Math is a tool.

Math wing is poodoo. efficiency comes from how you fly your ships, and how well your dice rolls are.

Not true. Mathematically, 3 attk and 2 attk are a world apart, and it shows on the table. Math is the foundation of almost every tabletop game, regardless of how well you play, you still have a percentage of failure and success based around statistics and luck.

If you think that fickle, you aren't building it right.

It's got the ability to be an arc-dodger, an ordnance delivery vehicle and a tanky fighter.

nowhere do I see "jouster"

also, note how I said "generic T-70"

Poe is, imo, instantly competitive for his ability and thrusters alone, nevermind the shield-regen astromechs and BB-8

regardless, the T-70's jousting value won't be as much of a burden to it as the T-65, because it can actually do other things

boost, baby! Let the poor T-65 listslessly plod along and focus all day, I'm going to be in the blue one spinning quasi-advanced sensor barrel rolls into ptl focus into green maneuvers into normal action...

The T-70 does indeed have worse efficiency than the X-wing. But it also has boost and a completely new maneuver that makes it a lot less predictable in a joust. We'll have to see how it turns out in play, but I'm optimistic.

If you think that fickle, you aren't building it right.

It's got the ability to be an arc-dodger, an ordnance delivery vehicle and a tanky fighter.

nowhere do I see "jouster"

also, note how I said "generic T-70"

Poe is, imo, instantly competitive for his ability and thrusters alone, nevermind the shield-regen astromechs and BB-8

regardless, the T-70's jousting value won't be as much of a burden to it as the T-65, because it can actually do other things

boost, baby! Let the poor T-65 listslessly plod along and focus all day, I'm going to be in the blue one spinning quasi-advanced sensor barrel rolls into ptl focus into green maneuvers into normal action...

Yeah, this is the important part. If jousting value was the be all and end all, you would never see pancakes because they have poor jousting value universally, from Dash to Han to Chiraneau. That being said, it's an important consideration- it does affect your tactics.

I kind of want to see how 4x Blue Novices w/Autothrusters do. Or a couple of Red Veterans w/Predator for support of your big gun.

4x Blue Novices w/Autothrusters will automatically lose you every game

they're 104 points

Predator + thruster vets (or Wired + r3-a2) might have some game, though

Oops. Guess I forgot the point cost. Oh well.

Can someone run the rumbers for 2 red dice, Weapon Guidance and a focus? 3 Red dice and a focus, and 3 red dice with 2 focus?

and how well your dice rolls are.

Anyone else hear that sentence in the voice of Obi Wan's diner running friend from the prequels, when he says "and how big your pocket book is"? Was that deliberate?

and how well your dice rolls are.

Anyone else hear that sentence in the voice of Obi Wan's diner running friend from the prequels, when he says "and how big your pocket book is"? Was that deliberate?

"I call it luck."

"In my experience, there's no such thing as luck. "

"Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything--especially not **** green dice."

The T-70 does indeed have worse efficiency than the X-wing. But it also has boost and a completely new maneuver that makes it a lot less predictable in a joust. We'll have to see how it turns out in play, but I'm optimistic.

I concur

It has been pointed out that the 'old' X-wing rookie needed an extra hull to be competitive at 21 points, and the 'new' x-wing has an extra hitpoint BUT a higher cost, that glosses over that it also has BOOST.

I think the POTENTIAL problem with the T-70 (note POTENTIAL problem, not yet sure if there even is a problem with it's cost) is that it may be paying to be an okay jouster and an okay dodger rather than being really strong in either of those rolls. If you are wanting to just pay for a jouster, then you are going to find more cost effective alternatives that aren't paying for a boost ability you might not ever use.

But I also think that T-70 has to be priced considering the potency of current and future astromech units.

remember fellas, when we're talking about jousting efficiency boost don't mean ****

it's when we get beyond mere numbers that it starts to matter

The T-70 does indeed have worse efficiency than the X-wing. But it also has boost and a completely new maneuver that makes it a lot less predictable in a joust. We'll have to see how it turns out in play, but I'm optimistic.

I concur

It has been pointed out that the 'old' X-wing rookie needed an extra hull to be competitive at 21 points, and the 'new' x-wing has an extra hitpoint BUT a higher cost, that glosses over that it also has BOOST.

I think the POTENTIAL problem with the T-70 (note POTENTIAL problem, not yet sure if there even is a problem with it's cost) is that it may be paying to be an okay jouster and an okay dodger rather than being really strong in either of those rolls. If you are wanting to just pay for a jouster, then you are going to find more cost effective alternatives that aren't paying for a boost ability you might not ever use.

But I also think that T-70 has to be priced considering the potency of current and future astromech units.

Maybe the ability to switch roles mid-match is what will turn the tables.

Or maybe just the fact that it's a decent arc-dodger, but has more bulk than a typical dedicated arc-dodger. It means you're not gonna blow up instantly when you fail to dodge arcs.

3 red dice with focus and weapons guidance(TLDR skip to end)

simplifying crit as a hit

2/4 chance of hit, 1/4 chance f focus, 1/4 chance of a miss, on each die.

Possible combinations

Hit1,Hit1,Hit1,

Hit1,Hit1,Hit2

Hit1,Hit1,Focus

Hit1,Hit1,Miss

Hit1,Hit2,Hit1,

Hit1,Hit2,Hit2

Hit1,Hit2,Focus

Hit1,Hit2,Miss

Hit1,Focus,Hit1,

Hit1,Focus,Hit2

Hit1,Focus,Focus

Hit1,Focus,Miss

Hit1,Miss,Hit1,

Hit1,Miss,Hit2

Hit1,Miss,Focus

Hit1,Miss,Miss

Hit2,Hit1,Hit1,

Hit2,Hit1,Hit2

Hit2,Hit1,Focus

Hit2,Hit1,Miss

Hit2,Hit2,Hit1,

Hit2,Hit2,Hit2

Hit2,Hit2,Focus

Hit2,Hit2,Miss

Hit2,Focus,Hit1,

Hit2,Focus,Hit2

Hit2,Focus,Focus

Hit2,Focus,Miss

Hit2,Miss,Hit1,

Hit2,Miss,Hit2

Hit2,Miss,Focus

Hit2,Miss,Miss

Focus,Hit1,Hit1,

Focus,Hit1,Hit2

Focus,Hit1,Focus

Focus,Hit1,Miss

Focus,Hit2,Hit1,

Focus,Hit2,Hit2

Focus,Hit2,Focus

Focus,Hit2,Miss

Focus,Focus,Hit1,

Focus,Focus,Hit2

Focus,Focus,Focus

Focus,Focus,Miss

Focus,Miss,Hit1,

Focus,Miss,Hit2

Focus,Miss,Focus

Focus,Miss,Miss

Miss,Hit1,Hit1,

Miss,Hit1,Hit2

Miss,Hit1,Focus

Miss,Hit1,Miss

Miss,Hit2,Hit1,

Miss,Hit2,Hit2

Miss,Hit2,Focus

Miss,Hit2,Miss

Miss,Focus,Hit1,

Miss,Focus,Hit2

Miss,Focus,Focus

Miss,Focus,Miss

Miss,Miss,Hit1,

Miss,Miss,Hit2

Miss,Miss,Focus

Miss,Miss,Miss

Combinations: 4x4x4=64

3 hits without focus: 8/64 = 1/8

3 hits with 1 focus: 32/64 = 1/2 (plus above)

3 hits with 2 focus (via Katarn, Esege, or Garven): 19/64 plus above

3 hits with 3 focus 6/64= 3/32

TLDR: a Blue Novice with Weapons Guidance and a focus has a 5/8* of getting 3 hits (though the odds of crits are unaffected) each round. If the blue novice gains access to a second focus token (by Garven, Kyle Katarn, or Esege), that chance of getting 3 hits goes up to a solid 29/32 chance.

*(32/64 for spending the focus,+8/64 for not spending the focus)

Nevermind

I will make a dedicated T-70 Mathwing post later, but for now here are some spoilers.

T-70 X-wing MathWing Cliff Notes

• 3/2/3/3 is worth 19.9 points at PS1. (I have had these numbers since December 2014 when I proposed a free Hull as a fix for the T-65 X-wing in my House Rules)
• At 24 points, this yields a PS2 derated jousting efficiency of 86.2%.
• The corresponding required efficiency (negating the value of the PS boost from PS1 to PS2) to break even with a PS1 TIE Fighter is 140.8%.

The closest comparison to the T-70 X-wings are the generic StarVipers. They are very close to each other on the price:performance jousting curve, and functionally they are very similar when you break them down.

Starviper MathWing Cliff Notes

• 3/3/4/1 is worth 21 points at PS1.
• At 25 points, this yields a PS1 jousting efficiency of 84.0%.
• The corresponding required efficiency is 137.2% relative to a PS1 TIE Fighter.

T-70 X-wing vs StarViper comparison

• Very similar absolute required efficiency.
• T-70 is PS2 vs the StarViper's PS1.
• T-70 dial: has 4K and Taon Roll (modified K-turn) instead of 3 Segnors left/right. The T-70 loses the 1 hard turns but gains the 3 hard turns. Otherwise the dials are identical.
• T-70 loses the evade [edit:] barrel roll action relative to the StarViper.
• T-70 gains the astromech slot and the "tech" upgrade slot relative to the StarViper.

I personally think the Segnors' ability to alter the direction heading in 2 different ways is probably worth more than the lateral movement choices of K-turn + Talon Roll, but either way it's not a significant value difference.

Early conclusion: it is basically a StarViper with a free bump to PS2. The dial is functionally similar, evade and upgrades generally don't get taken by generics anyway, [edit:] but the lack of barrel roll will hurt the T-70 some (see generic B-wings usage for reference). You may draw your own conclusions as to how much of an impact the generic T-70s will have on the competitive meta.

As a relevant comparison, a Y-wing with TLT is 24 points and jousting efficiency of 88.2% assuming it always gets a shot at a non-autothrusters target.

I'd like to see a Title card that updates it to perhaps the XJ3 Xwing.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/XJ3_X-wing_starfighter

Perhaps reducing the cost of R7 astromechs on it (while also introducing a number of other R7 astromechs), providing an extra torp slot, and an extra shield, and possibly a Tech upgrade, all for perhaps 1 or two points, may go a long way to making it better. The pilots are by far some of the best in the game, but they are stuck in a fighter that is not longer really considered competitive by the standards that we are seeing today.