They should have made it use a focus to shoot. If you had to pay a focus, it would be more balanced, IMO. Just like the blaster turret.

That way if you could bump them and take away there actions, it would be a good strategy.

If you are in the position to bump them you won't be shot anyways. Give it some time, you will adapt.

True! But. When you bump them with your soak off's, they can still shoot your other ships at range 2-3, so if you fly a swarm you need to get all of your ships into range 1 of them. not an easy task.

The pure jousting efficiency is not that high for quad TLT, suprisingly. Any kind of TIE swarm should be able to crack them.

Y-wings were making a come back ever since Wave 6.

I'm with you. I do love my new Twin Laser Turrets, but I've been doing well for months with 4 thugs with R4 and title. Second place out of sixteen not even a month ago. Two ship lists love playing against other 2 ship lists because they can only be attacked twice. It's sometimes an uphill battle to keep them in arc, but if you hit them withv few times a round they fold. Not a clean game, generally, but winnable. And if you can ionize fat Han or a Decimator onto a debris field, you win.

They should have made it use a focus to shoot. If you had to pay a focus, it would be more balanced, IMO. Just like the blaster turret.

That way if you could bump them and take away there actions, it would be a good strategy.

If you are in the position to bump them you won't be shot anyways. Give it some time, you will adapt.

True! But. When you bump them with your soak off's, they can still shoot your other ships at range 2-3, so if you fly a swarm you need to get all of your ships into range 1 of them. not an easy task.

The pure jousting efficiency is not that high for quad TLT, suprisingly. Any kind of TIE swarm should be able to crack them.

Have you tried this yet? I used 6 ties, with howl. He had 4 TLT, with a stress bot to be exact. And another game 3 TLT, and ion with scum. Plus they all had the droid that makes 3 maneuvers green. In both cases they kept them in checked board formation, so even you hit the front ones, they can still shoot your back ties, and his behind can still shoot your ties that bumped and lost actions, usually with their primary weapons, by the time you get near them, at least two of your ties are dead, and you usually lose another from bumping the main guys and getting shot from behind.

If they would have just made it a focus token to fire, it would have been way more balanced. Mind you it's not crazy over the top like a phantom was, but it can really make the game boring. Since they never have to joust and you have to chase them around the board. The game is becoming whoever can fire more wins, maneuvering is becoming less and less important, IMO.

I know a lot of your are going to say, well it's going to stop the two ship Meta, and yes it will.

But there was a much easier way, Change the rules gaining +1 die at range 1 to: Only gain +1 die for range one when a target is in your primary arc. It would have done the exact same thing and helped bring back flying your ships properly to gain and advantage back into the game. FFG missed the boat when they had the chance to fix this with the new core set and didn't.

Mind you if they changed it so you need a focus to fire it, it still stops the 2 ship meta, but makes it less powerful versus other ships. Did you see NOVA Open. 16 lists out of 70 some had TLT's, guess who won the tourney. TLT list! I believe 4 of the top 16 where TLT lists too. It has already begun!!

16/70 hardly seems unhealthy. Did you have 6 TIEs including Howlrunner or 6 TIEs + Howlrunner? The latter version seems to have the best chance if they are all PS 3. This is a TLT killer. I sadly don't own as many TIEs, so I haven't tried it yet. I am trying to fight them with RecSpec Bounty Hunters next, I am looking forward to that, as I think they have a good shot.

I don't think TLTs need a nerf. They help buff a couple of ships but are only truly terrifying in mass. Also I think Auto-thrusters are great. My interceptors have done much better since they came out. I haven't flown it against a TLT spam list but I don't think it would be too bad. On three dice with an un-modified attack your getting on average 2 hits (ish probably more like 1.5) Auto thrusters gives you one dodge. So you just have to roll a dodge or spend an action. Then if you get into range one they can't shoot.

If you have flown interceptors against TLT spam please let me know how it did I am interested to hear your thoughts.

Here's how that goes - the TLT averages 2 hits a shot (whether via Predator on a HWK or Horton on a Y, or etc, et al), so you autothruster one and spend your evade token on the other. *Bam* - denied. Second shot that turn from the same gun - 2 more hits, autothruster one...oops, evade is gone, now what? Hope you roll an evade on one of your OTHER two (non-blank) dice, or you are 1/3 of your way to dead in the first shot from the first ship.

Trust me, TLTs wilt autothruster interceptors like a firehose aimed at tissue paper - you get maybe 3 turns against them, tops, and you are dead.

EDIT: Which is, as noted, not to say that I think they are OP. I do not think they are. I just think that autothrusters as a 'fix' to the TIE Interceptor was not nearly enough. They brought Interceptors up to 'okay, nothing earth-shaking, but competitive enough...more or less...in the right hands' BEFORE the last few waves came out. Since then, though...and especially with TLT (balanced just fine against everything else) highlighting the issue, AT just seems...so very meh.

Autothrusters is such a **** design.

Funny how one could say that for a thing thats "good", and brings old ships back and strikes back against turrets. But I'll say it.

Bad design to fix an existing bad design: the primary weapon turret.

--

I don't think anyone thinks ICT is/was broken. Though I'm sure you could find some skyfall topics about it in old history.

You only have to see Fel one shot at Range 3 in the first round of combat to realize how important it is. And Autothrusters is hardly the "now you can't hit me" card many think it is.

Whenever I debate with myself if an upgrade/pilot is overpowered, I ask myself, "How much would I pay to use this?". And lets just say I'd pay more then 6 points to use TLT, and I'm pretty sure all of you would as well. Broken? No, not broken, but probably under priced.

The line of thinking is this- The most comparable upgrade to TLT is the Heavy Laser Cannon. It is priced similarly, and it seems to average the same amount of damage as a TLT- 2 hits. HLC seems fairly priced, and while I wasn't playing the game when it was initially released, I have never heard an outcry that HLC was over or under costed. This leads me to believe it is priced very well along with my playing experience with the upgrade telling me the same.

Now consider these negatives HLC has compared to TLT- it must be in arc, and it costs a point more. Even just the fact that the TLT shoots as a turret makes it infinitely more manageable then HLC. Even if my assumption is incorrect, and your damage output is less with TLT then with HLC, you will more then make up for it simply because the TLT users are getting more attacks in per game. They are guaranteed shots on ANY ship in rng 2-3, whereas HLC users have to maneuver and pray those arc dodgers find a way into their arc. And what happens when you have to do so much maneuvering to get shots? You bump more, you use stressful moves more, etc... In the end, your action economy will not match that of a ship which can glide along with out a single care, waiting for a ship to poke into it's bubble.

In summary, here is what TLT has over HLC

-Turret (duh) (this is basically worth 3 points)

-Cost

-Action economy

Here is what HLC has over TLT

-Can do more then 2 damage a turn.

While a B-wing can't equip a turret, just think- would you rather have an HLC on it, or a TLT? Now think about that for every ship in the game whether or not it has the capability to equip these types of upgrades. Outside of the Outrider, I think I take TLT every time.

8 or 9 points for TLT, and I'm still running it in a variety of lists. You give me it for 6? *Sigh*... Then I'm running it in too many...

But I'll take TLT builds over Fatty 2 ship builds any day, so I'm fine with it for now.

But that is a terrible way to look at it. The TLT is cost they way it is because of the ships that it can go on, similar to the HLC. Thinking of whether you would want a HLC or TLT on a B-wing is disingenous.

man I'd love to put TLTs on tie fighters

too bad it's ******* impossible

Sith's point is extremely important. The K, the HWK, and the Y are garbage ships i.t.o efficiency without the turret upgrade. Even with it, they have underwhelming dials and middling to low durability (except miranda, because miranda), but at least their efficiency isn't in the pits.

if you could put it on a barrel-rolling, 4 dice at range 1 B-wing...yeah things would be a bit different

1.) I agree that TLT is obnoxious.

2.) It's still by far much more of an enjoyable meta than the 2 ship one. For those that like 2 ship lists, Dual Aggressors and perhaps Soontir+Whisper+21 points of whatever will still be around and viable.

Quad TLT is more fun to fly against than yet another match against Dash/Falcon/Decimator/Corran/Soontir/Whisper. Not only have I had to face these types of lists non-stop for the past 8-10 months, they're also not very fun to play against. You end up in binary autolose situations where the remaining half of your list simply can't deal with the remaining Super Corran or Whisper or whatever.

The pure jousting efficiency is not that high for quad TLT, suprisingly. Any kind of TIE swarm should be able to crack them.

Have you tried this yet? I used 6 ties, with howl. He had 4 TLT, with a stress bot to be exact. And another game 3 TLT, and ion with scum. Plus they all had the droid that makes 3 maneuvers green. In both cases they kept them in checked board formation, so even you hit the front ones, they can still shoot your back ties, and his behind can still shoot your ties that bumped and lost actions, usually with their primary weapons, by the time you get near them, at least two of your ties are dead, and you usually lose another from bumping the main guys and getting shot from behind.

Six TIEs is not a great jousting list. Given a list that wants you to approach in a single block so it can joust with you at Range 2-3, why did you do what it wanted? Break your TIEs into two blocks and send one of them to flank--the turrets don't care about the angle, but it means you can get a lot more ships into Range 1 simultaneously.

If they would have just made it a focus token to fire, it would have been way more balanced.

It would have been dead on arrival, just like the Blaster Turret.

Did you see NOVA Open. 16 lists out of 70 some had TLT's, guess who won the tourney. TLT list! I believe 4 of the top 16 where TLT lists too. It has already begun!!

Define "TLT list".

Mind you if they changed it so you need a focus to fire it, it still stops the 2 ship meta, but makes it less powerful versus other ships. Did you see NOVA Open. 16 lists out of 70 some had TLT's, guess who won the tourney. TLT list! I believe 4 of the top 16 where TLT lists too. It has already begun!!

So roughly 20-25% of the players brought TLT lists, which reflects the meta perception that the card is strong. From there, 25% of the Top 16 included players from that group.

Sounds roughly like parity to me.

Well approx 23% starting to 25% in the top 16

So a 2% difference

...

XWING IS DOOMED

They should have made it use a focus to shoot. If you had to pay a focus, it would be more balanced, IMO. Just like the blaster turret.

That way if you could bump them and take away there actions, it would be a good strategy.

Oh please - come on. How often do you see Blaster turrets fielded?

Right, almost never; as the focus token is too valuable. The exceptions are only multiple focus machines like the Palob or Moldy-Crow-builds. And the Blaster turret costs 4pts, a TLT with focus requirement still at 6pts would be stillborn. And as said above, TLT are mainly fielded on second/third rate ships, making these ships viable again.

Here is the NERF Twin Laser Turret

16/70 hardly seems unhealthy. Did you have 6 TIEs including Howlrunner or 6 TIEs + Howlrunner? The latter version seems to have the best chance if they are all PS 3. This is a TLT killer. I sadly don't own as many TIEs, so I haven't tried it yet. I am trying to fight them with RecSpec Bounty Hunters next, I am looking forward to that, as I think they have a good shot.

I also want to point out, that the squads that use the TLT are varied. The winning squad only used two, one on a Stress Gold and one on a Rebel Operative, Moldy Crow, HWK. Did any 4x TLT squads make the cut?

So, you are going to need to be a bit more specific on what a TLT squad is, and what the exact problem is.

The TLT had to be powerful enough to effect a change in the meta. If it wasn't game-changing, then we would still be moaning about PWTs (notice how we haven't seen those posts in a while?). I would gladly deal with this supposed TLT problem over Fat Turrets (i.e. high PS with boost) anyday.

And a lot of these hypotheticals of Soontir vs TLT are actually Soontir vs 4xTLTs. You're comparing 35 points to 100 when you should be asking if Soontir can hold his weight against 1.5xTLTs. Much like Soontir vs Superdash, if you can close into that donut, it gets much easier. Not to mention your other 65 points of anything is going to be doing something, I'm sure.

Even if you think TLTs are undercosted (probably by a point or two), most ships that can take them are probably overcosted by a point or two.

Either way, I think everyone will cheer up a bit if you think of it like this:

1. Meta shifts away from PWTs

2. Meta shifts toward swarms

3. Moderate resurgence of elite arc-dodgers to counter swarms

4. Healthy meta

5. Profit for everyone!

Time will tell, but I don't think we've seen a healthier and more unpredictable meta than the current one - and that's before Wave 8 comes down and really throws things into a spin.

I've been gone for a while, something happen to the TLT??

Mind you if they changed it so you need a focus to fire it, it still stops the 2 ship meta, but makes it less powerful versus other ships. Did you see NOVA Open. 16 lists out of 70 some had TLT's, guess who won the tourney. TLT list! I believe 4 of the top 16 where TLT lists too. It has already begun!!

So roughly 20-25% of the players brought TLT lists, which reflects the meta perception that the card is strong. From there, 25% of the Top 16 included players from that group.

Sounds roughly like parity to me.

One thing to think about as well....he flew kinkirk off the board by a about a mm. Sometimes reading lists online dont tell the whole story of the match. TLT is a strong card but I think that the opponent with deci and whisper may have had a chance if not for loosing a ship and the emperor in the 3rd or 4th round of play.

I forgot what the problem was in that game. Yeah, that was a major issue for him in that game. Because it seemed to be pretty even at the start.