First off, I love X-wing. It attracted me with the major selling points of ease of play and the visual flare of space dogfights and beautiful rendered ships. All was well with the game until the release of one ship. One ship that is the bane of balance and is as broken as anything I've ever seen, The IG-2000.

Bring a swarm? Hard counters it with double taps from both ships. Stress it? Closes and Autoblast you to hell. Sit at range two and fight in the safe zone? Dual sets of ion cannons off the board. These things are just rediculous and it has me thinking about hanging it up and just not playing. I see a pair of them in each tournament I enter. I dread seeing them, The combo is so potent and overpowering that it sucks all the fun out of the game. I was seriously hoping that I'd see some sort of balance or errata with them and yet nothing. Is it just time to hang it up or am I in the right about this? Are they in fact broken in a game where skill was the deciding factor. Not "Accuracy Correctors take two, Accuracy Corrector your Ionized, and Accuracy Corrector your destroyed" I'm tired of these things. Feeding them stress does nothing. It's like facing a Darth Vader with a chopstick while your sick with the flu in the middle of a hurricane. Seriously can anyone help or offer some insight?

Perhaps, and this is not meant to sound flippant, but you need to learn how to play?

I would rather face the Brothers IG than either Corran Horn or these days Miranda.

Every time I've flown one it has gone down very quickly, being green dice dependent is inherently risky.

And yeah, this forum is filled with the tears of x wingers who are angry that x wings lack that X factor to work these days. And a wings? That's your problem right there, 2-3 dice vs 3-4 defence dice + autothrusters?

Statistics tells you this is a hiding to nothing.

Lets not be rude, but you are correct that 2 die attack ships will not cut it against IG-2000s. Before the advanced title, my friend like to play dual IG-BC with stealth device and sensor jammer on both. When they turtle up two dice won't even have a chance.

I haven't ever lost a game to IG's, single or double. 8-10 competitive and 20+ casual. I think they're viable, but they're certainly not broken.

And if you would quit over something like this perhaps a bit of maturity is needed before playing competitive games?

I haven't ever lost a game to IG's, single or double. 8-10 competitive and 20+ casual. I think they're viable, but they're certainly not broken.

And if you would quit over something like this perhaps a bit of maturity is needed before playing competitive games?

Just to add some constructiveness, how do you tend to win? Differing lists or do you fly a standard list each time?

What tactics do you use?

Things that help defeat the agression...


1. Action Denial.
- this is true for most 3 agility die ships, they tend to rely on defense modification - using upgrade cards for attack modification (FCS, Predator) - so stopping their action will weaken their defense.
you can do this by - Blocking, (which is why Enhanced scopes on agressors are sooooo good ; ) ), Double stress, via crew&droids, Mara jade, tactician, r3-a2, , pilot abilities (Kath scarlet), or weaponry (Flechette, Flechette cannon)

2. Arc Avoidance
They don't have a turret, so avoid their arcs - recognize when is a good time for inertial dampeners, and assume they do too - recognize when is a good time for a K-turn. Also use higher pilot skill and repositioning actions to help.

3. High Attack

3 attack is needed to break the 3 agility consistantly, HLC is better - Opportunist from a lower pilot skill ship, Jan ors, Proton rockets on a-wings... Don't expect standard 2 die attacks to break through, especially with defense modification happening - A-wings can do it at range 1, but then you need pilot skill to get range one as they are mobile.

4. Area Control

Bombs, Ion bombs, conner nets, Positioning asteroids, debris and rocks in the right places, and mastering your approach to force bad lines. Also ion turrets (you'll need 2) and setting up arcs from high powered ships, and broadcasting intent of where you intend to go, can cause them to avoid the area. Also blocking them, and keeping them blocked in - fighting near the edge of the play area limiting escape routes - fight in the corners. Turreted ships can help with this.

5. Auto Damage.
Bombs, Autoblaster y-wings. Feedback array, dead man switch z-95s. Darth Vader. These can cut through the defense in lieu of high attack - also they can act as area control to help zone the agressors. You can also use highly accurate damage - like the TL + Focus HLC turret of dash - just be ready to have the pilot skill bid to outmaneuver the agressors... Crack shot is worth a mention here too, - an outmaneuver A-wing swarm with crack shots could do a bit. Also note the Advanced Homing missiles can give crits through the shields - sometimes crits will seriously disable an agressor.

6. Durability.
Bringing some sturdier ships (Y-wings, B-wings, Tie bombers/punishers, shuttles, decimators) can help - as the agressors have the firepower to breach weaker ships more quickly .) Autothrusters, Sensor Jammer (to counteract gunner effect of B) can be very useful here if you control range. Especially if you can do this with higher area.

I haven't ever lost a game to IG's, single or double. 8-10 competitive and 20+ casual. I think they're viable, but they're certainly not broken.

And if you would quit over something like this perhaps a bit of maturity is needed before playing competitive games?

Just to add some constructiveness, how do you tend to win? Differing lists or do you fly a standard list each time?

What tactics do you use?

I tend to change it up. I enjoy variety and while that list is my go to for basics it is by far not the only one I play. I ran a combination of biggs in tank and wedge with expose for a while and would add in the hawk with Jan Ors for the extra attack dice. Biggs played the tank, Wedge was the damage and the hawk was there for the dice and the turret. I dipped into Corran and find him rather fun with Han Solo in the Falcon. 4 B-wings is fun but, easy identifiable and with ions easily controlled and bursted down even with barrel rolls. IG's are the first thing I've ran into this game here or at Regionals that are super hard for me. I've played against the Corran han/chewie lists. I've played against phantoms etc. For some reason these things.....are super rough for me. Everyone usually has that one list they see and go "Oh Crap....." this one is mine. I do prefer to fly Hammer and Anvil tactics and a I do rather like my misdirection as well.

I haven't ever lost a game to IG's, single or double. 8-10 competitive and 20+ casual. I think they're viable, but they're certainly not broken.

And if you would quit over something like this perhaps a bit of maturity is needed before playing competitive games?

Just wondering, at your store or where you play. When someone is having a rough time and see they are struggling do you approach them this way as well?

Also thanks raven. I appreciate it.

Really? You're gonna' hang it up because you can't find counters?

That's

rediculous

I haven't ever lost a game to IG's, single or double. 8-10 competitive and 20+ casual. I think they're viable, but they're certainly not broken.

And if you would quit over something like this perhaps a bit of maturity is needed before playing competitive games?

Just to add some constructiveness, how do you tend to win? Differing lists or do you fly a standard list each time?

What tactics do you use?

I haven't ever lost a game to IG's, single or double. 8-10 competitive and 20+ casual. I think they're viable, but they're certainly not broken.

And if you would quit over something like this perhaps a bit of maturity is needed before playing competitive games?

Just wondering, at your store or where you play. When someone is having a rough time and see they are struggling do you approach them this way as well?

Also thanks raven. I appreciate it.

Fair nuff' Rainbow. Gonna go theorycraft with my new knowledge that folks have helped me out with. Thanks each and all.

Great post Ravncat, I learned a lot, and just what the op needed.

Oh, good grief - I just beat a standard pair of Brobots at out last tournament (15 players) without losing a ship.

List was: 4x Tempest Squadron with Accuracy Correctors and Hull Upgrade (one had an ion pulse missile)

Just throw a ship in front of one of theirs - oh, no actions? LOL - whatever, eat it down in one turn!

For real, Brobots are easy kills - I've only ever lost once to them, and that was running a list they were well paired against.

Ashley's TIE Advanced/Palpmobile list is currently undefeated against Brobots. It literally eats them alive.

I don't agree with some of the people here dogging you for what they consider a bad list. This game is finally at the point where any list can beat any other list if played well.

I too have played from the beginning and I agree with an early commenter that the only thing that came close to breaking the game was preFAQ Phantom. I've played against brobots plenty and my plan is usually to isolate (and block if I can) one of them and pump all of my guns on it at once. Those A-Wing at PS1 can do that well for you. If I can isolate, O try to impose my will other ways (debris seup, offering a trap, getting them to chase less valuable ships, etc).

Honestly, I would recommend playing the list you hate. It will give you a better understanding of how it works which you can use against you opponents.

Ashley's TIE Advanced/Palpmobile list is currently undefeated against Brobots. It literally eats them alive.

What list is this?

@Lyconnus

The Brobots list is one of the more competitive ones. I have won a few tournaments with it. But i still feel Dash-based lists and RAC/Fel are winning a lot more tournaments.

Brobots is one out of maybe 10 lists that can reliably win tournaments. They are not even in the very top spot either. The meta is still adjusting to the Raider, new Wave and soon to the new Core Set. So the lists are floating a bit at the moment. But once they settle down again we will have probably around a dozen viable tournament lists. Which is the first time in a long time that we see so many viable choices, probably the first time EVER in the history of the game.

Your initial list was not even close to competitive and instead of whining around you should have asked for advice in the list section on how to counter Brobots. People would have gladly helped you.

If you want to see a broken good ship lookat the pre-nerf Phantom. Everyone needed to gard counter it or play it. That made for very little competitive picks that were left. Brobots is not even close to such a power level.

It's also unclear against which version of Brobots you lose. HLC? Veteran Instincts? Mangler? Predator? Accuracy Corrector/Autoblaster? Ion cannons??? What do they run that makes you cry so much. You even talk about double cannon IGs which is a horribly bad choice. The redundancy and bloated point cost makes them have less other valuable upgrades so they stay more predictible and beatable!

Ashley's TIE Advanced/Palpmobile list is currently undefeated against Brobots. It literally eats them alive.

What list is this?

If i had to guess It must be double advanced plus Palpatine on shuttle or Decimator with Palpatine plus one souped up Advanced which is often Vader.

Ashley's TIE Advanced/Palpmobile list is currently undefeated against Brobots. It literally eats them alive.

What list is this?

If i had to guess It must be double advanced plus Palpatine on shuttle or Decimator with Palpatine plus one souped up Advanced which is often Vader.

That's pretty much it.

Darth Vader - TIE/X1, Advanced Targeting Computer, Proton Rockets, Predator

Juno Eclipse - TIE/X1, Advanced Targeting Computer, Proton Rockets, Push the Limit

Omicron Group Pilot - Emperor Palpatine

I'll let Ashley tell you the rest, but I played it about 5 times with Brobots and never came close to beating it. It can put out some serious damage, and Juno is perfect for getting those range one prockets off.

@Lyconnus

The Brobots list is one of the more competitive ones. I have won a few tournaments with it. But i still feel Dash-based lists and RAC/Fel are winning a lot more tournaments.

Brobots is one out of maybe 10 lists that can reliably win tournaments. They are not even in the very top spot either. The meta is still adjusting to the Raider, new Wave and soon to the new Core Set. So the lists are floating a bit at the moment. But once they settle down again we will have probably around a dozen viable tournament lists. Which is the first time in a long time that we see so many viable choices, probably the first time EVER in the history of the game.

Your initial list was not even close to competitive and instead of whining around you should have asked for advice in the list section on how to counter Brobots. People would have gladly helped you.

If you want to see a broken good ship lookat the pre-nerf Phantom. Everyone needed to gard counter it or play it. That made for very little competitive picks that were left. Brobots is not even close to such a power level.

It's also unclear against which version of Brobots you lose. HLC? Veteran Instincts? Mangler? Predator? Accuracy Corrector/Autoblaster? Ion cannons??? What do they run that makes you cry so much. You even talk about double cannon IGs which is a horribly bad choice. The redundancy and bloated point cost makes them have less other valuable upgrades so they stay more predictible and beatable!

Link on what I usually face. http://xwing-builder.co.uk/view/312226/the-bane

Brobots are not unbeatable it's a strong list but if you fly near the edge or close to asteroids it really limits their movement, then it's just a matter of rolling dice till they die.

It wouldn't be an internet message board without this type of "hey, I'm leaving!" Post.

I see your "Hey I have nothing to add other than some troll." and I raise you a "Hey I need some help I'm getting discouraged and frustrated." What do you do when you see a player struggling? Sit back and laugh or step in and try to help?

It's fine to want help and ask for it. But don't friggin' leave, dude.

Y'all have been trolled. This post cannot be serious.

@OP, can I has your stuff?

Well even the Brobot would have a hard time against 4 TLT. Talk about the most unimaginative tactic, ever game. move away from your opponent, roll dice. game after game. No Skill, No gamesmanship, its all about a lazy win.

Hahaha, no. Brobots have 3agility, 8 total HP, and autothrusters: They're the hardest of counters to 4 TLTs. Take IGB and any of the other 3 (A actually makes 4 TLTs pretty hopeless), pair of HLCs, and just rip through em'. Unless you're just really bad, two IGs with Autothrusters will be killing Ys/HWKs/Ks long before they're ever at risk of dying.

Also, IGs aren't "unbeatable" in the slightest. They can be tough, but there's plenty that can take them down. Stress builds are brutal against IGs since they only have a primary firing arc and a big base. Higher PS arc dodgers give them fits (I once dominated them with Turr Phennir and Imp Fett with EU.. lots of shot denials). Heck, even a swarm can tear them to bits if you line one up. All those green dice and tokens will wilt under concentrated fire.

They're a tough list, but if they were half as good as the OP is saying then we'd see them winning far more tournaments than they are. Part of the problem is the OP's list just doesn't look all that effective, especially against 3 agility ships.

What's interesting to me about this post is I've never actually seen people be upset about the IG88. I've heard rumors that there was a certain level of "hate" towards it, but I never thought anyone could dislike it as much as some players dislike PWTs.

One thing we ARE seeing with the introduction of more ships and upgrades is a good chance of there existing a competitive list that "counters" the list you are playing. Dual IG has its counters too, Decimator + Engine + Captive + the rest of the upgrades alongside an Ace is pretty hairy due to Stress + something to out play it with higher PS. I think the IG88 is fairly priced SOLELY due to how sh*tty it feels to fly that ship against stress lists and high PS Imp Aces.

So while Dual IG might be upsetting the lists that you enjoy playing, it is having no impact on lists that handle it easily. Basically what I'm getting at is, most lists will come across something that makes winning with said list very difficult. Yours appears to be Dual IG! That wouldn't be a good enough reason to make me stop playing the game, but it would definitely make me re-think the type of lists I normally play.

The constant releasing of new content keeps the flow of the meta pushing forward, requiring all of us to adapt if we want to stay competitive.

Seems to me time could be better spent figuring out ways to beat these builds rather than complaining about their existence or asking that they be nerfed. I see it in every expandable game: some new element comes out, and these really smart people can break down in exacting detail how it completely breaks the game, but these same smart people don't even try to figure out how to counter it.