I'm still kinda surprised how few speculative imperial lists are even mentioning the raider. I think it's gonna be a huge helper to isd tactics, having a speed 4 cheap ship to block Congo lines and reduce the rebellions current potential activation advantage will be massive. I have a feeling mc80 vs Isd is gonna feel like a slap fight, and its how you incorporate the new small ships in movement and supplemental damage that'll win in a wave 2 meta, as the large ships are really just taking versions of what we have and basically mega-evolving them

With Raider the Imperials will get fast and cheap overload pulse carrier.

Avenger approves.

Is it weird that I'm more looking forward to what the MC30 has than the 80? I'm a bit disappointed in what it is (mostly because I had somehow gotten the impression that the Assault variant had 6 reds BASE) but I think it will be a solid enough ship. Yet so far, the MC30 is looking like a ship that can, astonishingly enough, go toe to toe with a Gladiator and WIN. I'm desperate to know what its points costs are and what Mr Colt .45 does for it. The MC80 is just more of the same in so many ways, but the MC30 is a very, very different way for Rebels to play their game.

Also... Rebels aren't winning anywhere else? Time for you guys to get some better Rebel players. :sagenod:

that's just the thing, though

X17 + advanced projectors = 1 damage to each hullzone

what HTT does is heavily discourage the combination of brace + redirect, which either forces more damage on the shields and lets you get through all that bulk that much faster, or forces half damage right into the targeted hullzone

though the ISD-2 with its four blues could probably deal with the brace more effectively by just hopefully rolling an ACC, and then X17 kicks in

I've been saying the X17 versus a Star Destroyer is still a solid fit.

that's just the thing, though

X17 + advanced projectors = 1 damage to each hullzone

what HTT does is heavily discourage the combination of brace + redirect, which either forces more damage on the shields and lets you get through all that bulk that much faster, or forces half damage right into the targeted hullzone

though the ISD-2 with its four blues could probably deal with the brace more effectively by just hopefully rolling an ACC, and then X17 kicks in

I've been saying the X17 versus a Star Destroyer is still a solid fit.

I dont think so. Against the ISD 1, GSD's and VSD's it can be useful but I think Heavy Turbo Laser Turrets will be HUGE

I'm still kinda surprised how few speculative imperial lists are even mentioning the raider. I think it's gonna be a huge helper to isd tactics, having a speed 4 cheap ship to block Congo lines and reduce the rebellions current potential activation advantage will be massive. I have a feeling mc80 vs Isd is gonna feel like a slap fight, and its how you incorporate the new small ships in movement and supplemental damage that'll win in a wave 2 meta, as the large ships are really just taking versions of what we have and basically mega-evolving them

Its hard to Speculate without even a Ballpark in Points Costs...

The moment we get some confirmation on those, then the speculation will start.

that's just the thing, though

X17 + advanced projectors = 1 damage to each hullzone

what HTT does is heavily discourage the combination of brace + redirect, which either forces more damage on the shields and lets you get through all that bulk that much faster, or forces half damage right into the targeted hullzone

though the ISD-2 with its four blues could probably deal with the brace more effectively by just hopefully rolling an ACC, and then X17 kicks in

I've been saying the X17 versus a Star Destroyer is still a solid fit.

I dont think so. Against the ISD 1, GSD's and VSD's it can be useful but I think Heavy Turbo Laser Turrets will be HUGE

Given that we are running MC80's with ECM and Projectors (at least until the rest of the upgrades are spoiled) let's leave the Rebels out of this discussion and focus solely on Star Destroyers.

They can't take both, so they're not going to be immune to either turbolaser, that's a given. So let's look at the X17 versus the HTT in that instance. If the MC80 fires a broadside into an advancing SD gets something like 8-10 damage and an accuracy, then the SD loses it's single brace token and is looking at 8-10 damage with only a redirect (and the anti-crit on the ISD) and either way it isn't going to be bracing and redirecting, so the HTT just became redundant and wasteful spending, while the X17 is still reducing the effectiveness of the still available Redirect Token.

You and I can disagree all we want on this subject, we already have, but I'm just putting this out there for others to think on and am not trying to convince you personally. Ive presented my opinion, you've presented yours, and I doubt we will agree on this. So let's just let others discuss this further.

i'm gonna call it, the raider will have a bigger impact on the Imperial meta than the ISD will.

The "that ship," ISD-2 (120)

Vader's on "that ship" (36)

Needa (2)

Advanced Projectors (6)

HTT (6)

[170]

Thing 1, VSD-1 (73)

HTT (6)

[79]

Thing 2, VSD-1 (73)

HTT (6)

[79]

328 points total

surprisingly a lot cheaper than I thought it'd be

going to have some fun with this one

I need to see AKbar for I start building out rebs

If HTT is the heavy turbolasers I would rather field X-I7s especially with the MC-80 and space whales with all their shields.

Personally I think devaluing the use of the Redirect is more important than the use of punching through a shield zone.

Let's look at some numbers.

Let's say you deal 9 damage (I have ECM's so brace is always active). With brace that is now 5 damage and I can redirect 1 point of each due to XI7's. That means my other zones take 1 and the defending zone takes 2.

Now let's look at HTT. Same thing, 9 damage. So I can either take 5 damage to 1 hull zone OR, I can take 8 damage to all my hull zones.

Which kills me faster?

Go back and look at my response in the other thread. When you factor in teamwork, XI7s build on each other. Once a brace token is used, the HTT become useless. I can see bringing one HTT for that initial shot, but why bother when Home One can guarantee I'll be able to target that brace?

Well other than the fact that not every ship will be within 1-5 distance, SW-7 Ions letting you use those same accuracy dice into damage instead, and the fact that SD's dont ever get 1 shot by anything so 1 extra damage is not really a net loss while forcing hard decisions onto your opponent on what they do seems like a great concept to me.

Go back and look at my response in the other thread. When you factor in teamwork, XI7s build on each other. Once a brace token is used, the HTT become useless. I can see bringing one HTT for that initial shot, but why bother when Home One can guarantee I'll be able to target that brace?

Star Destroyers with home one? boy, that'll be the day

X-17's work so well because they invalidate redirects. X-17 hurts a Vic really badly because it neuters 2/3 of its tokens, and a single accuracy, which will be common now with Home One in the mix, will disable the Brace. It doesn't work the other way around. You'd have to get two accuracies to match the same effect with HTT. The 2 new large's have 2 redirects, brace and contain right? So you're running into the same problem. In fact, the ONLY ship so far that HTT is a better choice than X17 is against a Nebulon, and they have other massive weakness that can be exploited.

Dem flanks tho.
-hourglass hand motions-

Well other than the fact that not every ship will be within 1-5 distance, SW-7 Ions letting you use those same accuracy dice into damage instead, and the fact that SD's dont ever get 1 shot by anything so 1 extra damage is not really a net loss while forcing hard decisions onto your opponent on what they do seems like a great concept to me.

I feel like Heavy Turbolaser Turrets would be effective against everything but the Nebulon-B, the CR90, and the Assault Frigate actually, the Mon Mothma Variaty. Those kinds would evade the double hit, or hit-crit, and take the remaining 2-3 damage on a separate hull zone. Often times I need to do just that because of darn Intel officers!

So ironically maybe the Heavy Turbolaser turrets might be better on rebel ships?

Oh, and the MC30c! They don't have brace either!

So yeah, maybe they are just too situational to the limited pool of ships that we have? If they have double brace, your outta luck. If they have no brace, same thing.

I think an engine tech is a must for this ship. It will also be nice to see what the stats and points for the MC30 are, then plan out fleet builds for the rebels. Still without more info that Imperial Star Distroyer looks intimidating .

The problem with x17s is advanced projectors. They interact such that projects can spread 3 damage away from the targeted hullzone.

Htt seems like a dedicated counter where x17 fails

Intel officer will always be murderous, though. Him + x17s are quite brutal

I was hoping that after the bothans had made a sacrifice that FFG would just give us the MC 80 article today... But alas they did not die in vain... For our watch continues.

I was hoping that after the bothans had made a sacrifice that FFG would just give us the MC 80 article today... But alas they did not die in vain... For our watch continues.

Well the ISD was on a Wednesday, so maybe the next spoiler comes tomorrow.

Based on the order of the Wave 2 announcement article, I would bet we get the MC-30 next.

The problem with x17s is advanced projectors. They interact such that projects can spread 3 damage away from the targeted hullzone.

Htt seems like a dedicated counter where x17 fails

Intel officer will always be murderous, though. Him + x17s are quite brutal

At the levels of damage we've been discussing, the X17s shine when you're targeting the same zone with multie ships, especially over HTT. Again, please go see my post in the other thread. Once the brace is used, the HTTs become useless. At 5+ damage, the XI7s are back to forcing that damage onto the target hull zone. Grab Home One and just keep that Brace token pinned down.

The problem with x17s is advanced projectors. They interact such that projects can spread 3 damage away from the targeted hullzone.

Htt seems like a dedicated counter where x17 fails

Intel officer will always be murderous, though. Him + x17s are quite brutal

With HTT's they can redirect ALL they want with Advanced Projectors. If they have to redirect 7 damage and cant use the brace as effectively that means next turn, next attack, etc they will take a harder pounding. Sure the Accuracy roll negates the brace right out but why do I care at that point? My Accuracy rolls can hit other things or if SW-7 Ions actually allow us to turn Accuracy rolls into damage instead, which means that only the red and black dice will have no damage sides.

The problem with x17s is advanced projectors. They interact such that projects can spread 3 damage away from the targeted hullzone.

Htt seems like a dedicated counter where x17 fails

Intel officer will always be murderous, though. Him + x17s are quite brutal

At the levels of damage we've been discussing, the X17s shine when you're targeting the same zone with multie ships, especially over HTT. Again, please go see my post in the other thread. Once the brace is used, the HTTs become useless. At 5+ damage, the XI7s are back to forcing that damage onto the target hull zone. Grab Home One and just keep that Brace token pinned down.

I WANT them to redirect as much damage as they can. The MOMENT they do so at the levels of damage we are talking about I have killed 2 defense tokens instead of 1. How many shields are left after 9 damage on an ISD 2 with AP? 3? Seems like they are going to take a beating from the tag along MC30 or Assault Frigate. in a single turn to 2 turns of damage I have neutered their capacity to survive much longer. They are taking more hull damage now then if they were over the same span of 2 turns of Xi7's.

I'd rather just take the hull damage with the largest number of damage braced unless you're pinning down contain. Because from then on that turn, I'm just redirecting everything else with impunity. HTTs are now useless. With multiple ships, I'm going to do more hull damage and remove more shields overall with the XI7s despite the advanced projectors.

I'd rather just take the hull damage with the largest number of damage braced unless you're pinning down contain. Because from then on that turn, I'm just redirecting everything else with impunity. HTTs are now useless. With multiple ships, I'm going to do more hull damage and remove more shields overall with the XI7s despite the advanced projectors.

Ehhh hmm let's go over the numbers.

So scenario, MC80 AC with Akbar, HTTs and and SW-7 Ions (based on what we know of the Akbar and SW-7) attacking an ISD 2 with AP

So the MC80 does 7 damage in its first roll. The ISD must choose now to lose up to 6-7 shields out of 12. They take no damage but half their shields are gone and other ships with HTT can also ignore the brace completely.

In the same situation with XI7 you deal 7 again and you block the brace so they lose 7 shields again but they take no damage.

In the end it does not matter because the same effect goes through except now they have less shields for other ships to hit when you are dealing with the HTT

The problem with x17s is advanced projectors. They interact such that projects can spread 3 damage away from the targeted hullzone.

Htt seems like a dedicated counter where x17 fails

Intel officer will always be murderous, though. Him + x17s are quite brutal

At the levels of damage we've been discussing, the X17s shine when you're targeting the same zone with multie ships, especially over HTT. Again, please go see my post in the other thread. Once the brace is used, the HTTs become useless. At 5+ damage, the XI7s are back to forcing that damage onto the target hull zone. Grab Home One and just keep that Brace token pinned down.

I WANT them to redirect as much damage as they can. The MOMENT they do so at the levels of damage we are talking about I have killed 2 defense tokens instead of 1. How many shields are left after 9 damage on an ISD 2 with AP? 3? Seems like they are going to take a beating from the tag along MC30 or Assault Frigate. in a single turn to 2 turns of damage I have neutered their capacity to survive much longer. They are taking more hull damage now then if they were over the same span of 2 turns of Xi7's.

I think we're differing on an important point: what happens with that Brace token. You're envisioning someone not using the brace token because of the HTTs. I'm envisioning him not using the brace token because I'm almost certain to have an accuracy result to shut that Brace down. With Home One, it's guaranteed.

If I can shut down that Brace with accuracy, I'm doing the exact same amount of shields damage as you are. The difference is I can force it into a more concentrated area at 5+ damage.

The problem with x17s is advanced projectors. They interact such that projects can spread 3 damage away from the targeted hullzone.

Htt seems like a dedicated counter where x17 fails

Intel officer will always be murderous, though. Him + x17s are quite brutal

At the levels of damage we've been discussing, the X17s shine when you're targeting the same zone with multie ships, especially over HTT. Again, please go see my post in the other thread. Once the brace is used, the HTTs become useless. At 5+ damage, the XI7s are back to forcing that damage onto the target hull zone. Grab Home One and just keep that Brace token pinned down.

I WANT them to redirect as much damage as they can. The MOMENT they do so at the levels of damage we are talking about I have killed 2 defense tokens instead of 1. How many shields are left after 9 damage on an ISD 2 with AP? 3? Seems like they are going to take a beating from the tag along MC30 or Assault Frigate. in a single turn to 2 turns of damage I have neutered their capacity to survive much longer. They are taking more hull damage now then if they were over the same span of 2 turns of Xi7's.

I think we're differing on an important point: what happens with that Brace token. You're envisioning someone not using the brace token because of the HTTs. I'm envisioning him not using the brace token because I'm almost certain to have an accuracy result to shut that Brace down. With Home One, it's guaranteed.

If I can shut down that Brace with accuracy, I'm doing the exact same amount of shields damage as you are. The difference is I can force it into a more concentrated area at 5+ damage.

Sure the brace is there and can still be used but I don't care. I am not relying on an accuracy to get the job done.

I have had plenty of times where the accuracy icons just don't pop up when you want them to. Sure you have Home One but that means you need that to make sure things get done.