ok, im not going to get into the named pilots, just the generics. I think the namedT-65 models will always have a place (more on that later). The T-70 generics though have a decided advantage over the T-65 though that even with a refit title the T-65 will never make up for. Lets look at this. First the stats

T-65 Rookie Pilot

PS:2

Attack:3

Agility:2

Hull:3

Shield:2

Target Lock

Focus

Astromech, Torpedo

21 points

T-70 Blue Squadron Novice

PS:2

Attack:3

Agility:2

Hull:3

Shield:3

Target Lock

Focus

Boost

Astromech, Torpedo, Tech

24 points

T-65 Red Squadron Pilot

PS:4

Attack:3

Agility:2

Hull:3

Shield:2

Target Lock

Focus

Astromech, Torpedo

23 points

T-70 Red Squadron Veteran

PS:4

Attack:3

Agility:2

Hull:3

Shield:3

Target Lock

Focus

Boost

Elite, Astromech, Torpedo, Tech

26 points

So, looking at the stats the T-70 gains 1 Shield, Boost, Tech, and the Talon Roll for 3 points. The Red Sqdn Vet also gains an Elite slot for free. Since the only 3 point upgrade that exists is Hull upgrade and it doesn't seem that a Hull Upgrade will be enough to bring them in line with each other. So, what would be the theoretical fix for the old X-Wings:

Title (or Modification)

T-65 Refit

May not be taken by T-70 X-Wings

This ship gains 1 Shield, Boost, and the Tech slot

3 points.

So, now that the T-65 and T-70 have the same stat line and upgrade bar where could there be a problem for the generics? Well there are two things. The first is the Talon Roll. This will give the T-70 an edge over a T-65 with or without a refit. The other problem is that the Red Squadron Pilot doesn't have the Elite slot of the Red Squadron Veteran giving the Red Squadron Veteran a distinct edge in build flexibility.

I believe though that a theoretical T-65 Refit would give the old X-Wing named pilots enough of an edge to keep them in line with the new T-70.

Just my thoughts, curious what you think.

Let's do something a bit more interesting with the X-wing rather than merely try to turn it into the T-70.

Let's do something a bit more interesting with the X-wing rather than merely try to turn it into the T-70.

100%

Synergy would be nice.

When you acquire a target lock, all T-65 X-wings at range 1 may also acquire a target lock on the same target.

not sure if that's enough, but I just like the idea of x-wings becoming more powerful in groups. I always think of the rebel x-wing pilots as being much more co-ordinated and team oriented than the imperials, and this comes through a lot in the OT. I'd rather have more original fixes like instead of just adding an icon or a hull upgrade.

I seem to be pointing this out a lot

Hull/shield/EU upgrades are not valid points of cost comparison. These upgrades are deliberately and ludicrously overpriced to keep from being auto include

If the t-65 got 6 health for 21 points, it would slap the piss out of the t70 I.t.o jousting efficiency . at that point, it might even compete with the bwing.

Bottom line is, these two aren't the same sship. They share "xwing" and any (currently nonexistent) xwing only titles, but otherwise they are completly unrelated to one another

The t-70 is a high performance ship, ala Ewing only not so radically priced

The t-65 is a jouster that can't joust

Any fix to the t-65 would first have to give it an identity other than (Biggs/Luke/tarn/inefficient z95)

IF the t-65 gets an Refit, I feel It should gain the Boost action and that is all for 1 point. upgrading the engines would make sence. you lose out on a sheild and the Troll of the T-70, but at 2 points cheaper, I feel it is a good trade off. it is enough where the t-65 wont become broken, or just like the t-70, however it is an upgrade that the t-65 desperatly needs, and would make sense for the rebelion to do in canon (we already have the ships, just replace the engines)

a rag-tag group of farmers and smugglers are more coordinated than a bunch of clones trained from birth to work together as a cohesive unit? Don't think so.

a rag-tag group of farmers and smugglers are more coordinated than a bunch of clones trained from birth to work together as a cohesive unit? Don't think so.

Considering they are NOT clones, I would venture that just they have more corridination through communication.

Even with the EU being redacted, new canon states that the storm troopers are not clones, as they all suffured from clone sickness in the 30 years between the movies and were phased out of commision, eventually replaced with humanoids from the across the galaxy.

Dont believe me? read the new book. even with its terrible writing, it still shows that the troopers are not clones, clear as day.

a rag-tag group of farmers and smugglers are more coordinated than a bunch of clones trained from birth to work together as a cohesive unit? Don't think so.

Considering they are NOT clones, I would venture that just they have more corridination through communication.

Even with the EU being redacted, new canon states that the storm troopers are not clones, as they all suffured from clone sickness in the 30 years between the movies and were phased out of commision, eventually replaced with humanoids from the across the galaxy.

Dont believe me? read the new book. even with its terrible writing, it still shows that the troopers are not clones, clear as day.

I'll take your word for it as I have not read it. I still stand by my belief that a trained military has more inherent organizational structure than a rebel group.

I would be happy with a free barrel roll for the T-65. Tell me that an x wing cannot barrel roll as part of its repertoire? I just have a hard time with that.

While I would agree with you under normal circumstances, it is not true for the following reasons that have been explained one form or another in canon

1. The Imperial Acadamies instilled in their cadets that winning is all that mattered. Those that did well were rewarded, those that failed were not fit to be in the acadamy (star wars rebels episode 5, Breaking ranks)
2. Most of the Rebels fighting the empire are doing so thorugh strong personal resolve. (ANH-RotJ, Aftermath, ect)
3. Imperial Pride and Promotion is more prevelent than Imperial life (aftermath chaper 12 I think)
4. Team work makes the dream work "I cant shake him!" "hold tight red 5, i got your back" *BOOM*"thanks wedge" (episode 4 ANH)
5. Vader ordering his Wingmen not to take the shot on the trench run fighters so he can take them out personally.(episode 4 ANH)
6. the Rebels *are* a trained military. They have ranks. They have squads. They have formations. They have tactical, stratigic, and opperational objectives.

There are others, but I feel my point is made

hardly an objective view.

I would be happy with a free barrel roll for the T-65. Tell me that an x wing cannot barrel roll as part of its repertoire? I just have a hard time with that.

That... is something I havent considered. To give the refit T-65 a 1 point barrel roll. That way the t-65 has a barrel roll action the t-70 doesnt have with 1 less shield and no troll, but the t-70 has a boost. it keeps both ships viable and a reason to play them.

hardly an objective view.

how so, no emotion or anything interjected. My point is that the T-65 would need "something different" then becoming the T-70. Given the raw numbers the generic T-70s joust and dogfight better then the T-65 even if you give the T-65 the same stat line due to the Talon Roll.

I think the easy way to "fix" the out-dated ships at this point is to do what they've already done, in a sense, with several formerly front-line, cutting edge starfighters. These older models are now very likely on the secondary market. Allow the old ships to use scum and villany equipment.

I mean think about it; many of these older models are likely (at this point) pilot owned, and just like the Falcon, they've tinkered and tweaked them to personal standards. You're not going to have T-65 rookie pilots 30 years after the T-65 came out and has been replaced by not just upgraded versions of itself, but an entirely new model. Not to mention the sudden shock of the unexpected. A single group of "antique" X-Wings could contain one with a cloak, another with a tractor beam, and still another with sesmic charges! ... Okay maybe not sesmic charges, but you all see my point?

They did it with the Z-95 for the original trilogy era, no reason they can't do the same with the T-65 for the New Force era. I think it would not only make them competative, but a lot of fun.

T-65 Modernization Package

X-Wing Only. Title. 1 point.

Increase your Shield rating by 1. Your action bar gains the Barrel Roll action. T-70 X-Wings cannot take this upgrade.

Or something to that effect.

I feel that any fix should be careful not to be too ... well, dull. By that I mean a straight-up shield increase, or br action on the bar, for example. The model is clearly inferior to the T-70, and should remain that way.

What strikes me as much more in keeping with the ot would be, as mentioned above, a coordination buff, tactical buff or synergy buff. These pilots clicked, achieved the impossible together, and some went on to shape the galaxy for decades afterwards. Their advantage when going up against fo's should be despite the t-65 model, not because of it.

(William Silvers)

I'm rather in favour of a 'dull' upgrade. Give the thing a shield. Majorjuggler's analyses make it credible that the T-65's popularity would increase.

The problem is not the comparison with the new X-Wing, but still with the B-Wing.

...

So, looking at the stats the T-70 gains 1 Shield, Boost, Tech, and the Talon Roll for 3 points. The Red Sqdn Vet also gains an Elite slot for free. Since the only 3 point upgrade that exists is Hull upgrade and it doesn't seem that a Hull Upgrade will be enough to bring them in line with each other. So, what would be the theoretical fix for the old X-Wings:

Title (or Modification)

T-65 Refit

May not be taken by T-70 X-Wings

This ship gains 1 Shield, Boost, and the Tech slot

3 points.

So, now that the T-65 and T-70 have the same stat line and upgrade bar where could there be a problem for the generics? Well there are two things. The first is the Talon Roll. This will give the T-70 an edge over a T-65 with or without a refit. The other problem is that the Red Squadron Pilot doesn't have the Elite slot of the Red Squadron Veteran giving the Red Squadron Veteran a distinct edge in build flexibility.

I believe though that a theoretical T-65 Refit would give the old X-Wing named pilots enough of an edge to keep them in line with the new T-70.

Just my thoughts, curious what you think.

cue in opinions on a fix.

hardly an objective view.

how so, no emotion or anything interjected. My point is that the T-65 would need "something different" then becoming the T-70. Given the raw numbers the generic T-70s joust and dogfight better then the T-65 even if you give the T-65 the same stat line due to the Talon Roll.

see above, but an objective view would not have suggestions, otherwise it would be a subjective view. Now I will give credit and say it started out as objective, but it clearly went subjective at the end. Once you go subjective there is no going back.

Not to say that subjective is a bad thing.

Warning language after 4:00 minuets.

The problem is not the comparison with the new X-Wing, but still with the B-Wing.

Couldn't agree more. That's why I think it needs something other than a parity-with-bwing buff, as you are suggesting... The rebels already have their joust monster. Shouldn't the x-wing, if rebooted, (and looking at the inventive reboots that ffg have achieved so far) be a little more thematically engaging?

the Rebels *are* a trained military. They have ranks. They have squads. They have formations. They have tactical, stratigic, and opperational objectives.

There are others, but I feel my point is made

Very much this. X-Wing exists in a hazy area straddling both Legends and canon and nothing in canon states that the rebels didn't train their members while Legends details the training. Even discounting all of the Clone Wars veterans who were trained by whatever force they served and the Imperial defectors trained by the Empire the Alliance did run its pilots through both sim and live flight training before sending them out. Sometimes they were given crash courses like Luke was or sent into combat mid-training due to pilot shortages but they were trained.

What the X Wing needed was a hit point (hull or shield) and a repositioning ability (barrel roll or boost) which the T70 got. The X Wing still needs those things.

I have had several ideas for the T-65 fix and posted some ideas for locking/opening s-foils and increasing evade dice. I think this idea may be the best I have thought up yet:

What do you guys think?

I'll be honest, I don't like it. And closing S Foils during a dogfight seems like a pretty silly thing to do...

Well according to some reddit threads some pilots would close them to make all the engines have the same vector, to make it go faster. The disadvantage of doing so is that the T-65 couldn't shoot, the advantage is that you could get out of a bad situation.