I'm playing in a league--for the first time ever, actually--and had a great time today. More or less at the last minute, I decided to run this with the intention of teaching swarms and/or TLT what's what:

I went 2-1, and I think the victories could be fairly characterized as blowouts: 100-0 and 100-29. But I lost 100-0 to IG-88B+VI/Boba Fett+VI+Engine list. I learned a couple of things about my brand-new, spur-of-the-moment list:

• Lone Wolf still isn't working for me. Echo is already either bringing overwhelming force or getting nuked anyway, so the extra rerolls don't do enough.
• PS 8/7/6 just isn't going to work against some important metagame threats (not that I didn't see that one coming).
• The Advanced dial is still really weird, and Maarek just… fell flat, offensively.

So I'm thinking about some tweaks:

I think a shuttle w/ Palpatine is a good way to go. You don't need to worry about whether its getting shots, because it contributes to your force just be having the emperor on the table. Also, it takes some heat off your other ships since its likely your opponent will try to destroy it first, and giving Echo free reign is a good opportunity to dish out some solid damage before the shuttle goes.

As an alternative to the shuttle, you could consider a pair of Academy Pilots. That frees up 6 points, enough to put Hull upgrade on Jax and Recon Spec on Echo. The nice thing about Academy Pilots is they can add more value to sensor jammer by blocking (especially on those turns when Jax is forced to turn away or just can't quite reach range 1 to deny those focus tokens).

Personally, I think the only way to go with a TIE Phantom is Whisper with Veteran Instincts and an Advanced Cloaking Device. That way he almost always will recloak before somebody gets to take a shot at him. If you want to use Echo, I would recommend potentially using the Stygium Particle Accelerator instead of Advanced Cloaking. That free automatic dodge might be handy in a pinch, if your opponent isn't swarming. Not really sure how to run him; I've only used Whisper myself. Also, I personally love Jax's ability, and I think increasing his survivability with that hull upgrade mentioned by blade_mercurial above might be handy.

While I see why you choose sensor jammer on echo how would Fire control system + recon specialist work for this list instead?

I came up with the idea to run Echo with PTL, IA, FCS and SPA. The concept is to PTL off the decloak, then use a green maneuver to clear the stress. If you're concerned about being vulnerable recloak and you likely have 4 defense dice with an Evade and Focus. Or you can use the PTL offensively to BR into better position. This would definitely take some practice to fly Echos funky decloak but having the decloak, BR and even limiting to green maneuvers makes for some really funky and unpredictable flying to get shots rather than relying on high PS. IA lets you know where your opponent will be to help choose decloak and or BR. Plus the teeny tiny rocks in the new core should make flying the Phantom easier.

I came up with the idea to run Echo with PTL, IA, FCS and SPA. The concept is to PTL off the decloak, then use a green maneuver to clear the stress.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable relying on the Phantom's dial to shed that stress.

While I see why you choose sensor jammer on echo how would Fire control system + recon specialist work for this list instead?

I could do that, but it's more expensive than a Sensor Jammer, and doesn't protect as well against multiple attacks--especially if I'm caught without a cloak for some reason.

I think a shuttle w/ Palpatine is a good way to go. You don't need to worry about whether its getting shots, because it contributes to your force just be having the emperor on the table. Also, it takes some heat off your other ships since its likely your opponent will try to destroy it first, and giving Echo free reign is a good opportunity to dish out some solid damage before the shuttle goes.

Yeah, that's pretty much right along with my thinking. What do you think of my concern that Sensor Jammer, Jax, Autothrusters, and Palpatine all in the same list might be putting on a trollface in a casual environment?

As an alternative to the shuttle, you could consider a pair of Academy Pilots. That frees up 6 points, enough to put Hull upgrade on Jax and Recon Spec on Echo. The nice thing about Academy Pilots is they can add more value to sensor jammer by blocking (especially on those turns when Jax is forced to turn away or just can't quite reach range 1 to deny those focus tokens).

I considered that, but I never feel as if a pair of Academy Pilots have the offensive punch I'd like. Although this would give me a chance to run a fair of the new Epsilon Squadron TIE/fo, if I gave up the initiative bid... might be worth some thought, there.

While I see why you choose sensor jammer on echo how would Fire control system + recon specialist work for this list instead?

Sensor Jammer is better protection against twin laser turrets, however it is worse against Soontir Fel, accuracy correctors and anything that can easily generate focus tokens (like Kyle Katarn for example). So its a meta-dependent choice. Given how common twin lasers are now (or will be), sensor jammer is probably better protection more often than not.

I came up with the idea to run Echo with PTL, IA, FCS and SPA. The concept is to PTL off the decloak, then use a green maneuver to clear the stress. If you're concerned about being vulnerable recloak and you likely have 4 defense dice with an Evade and Focus. Or you can use the PTL offensively to BR into better position.

I've actually tried this and its not as great as it sounds. You can get almost the same effect with advanced sensors, for cheaper, and you don't need intel agent (freeing up for more valuable crew) or have to worry about the stress from push the limit (which can be annoying on the phantom's dial). I feel veteran instincts or lone wolf are really good on Echo atm.

I think a shuttle w/ Palpatine is a good way to go. You don't need to worry about whether its getting shots, because it contributes to your force just be having the emperor on the table. Also, it takes some heat off your other ships since its likely your opponent will try to destroy it first, and giving Echo free reign is a good opportunity to dish out some solid damage before the shuttle goes.

Yeah, that's pretty much right along with my thinking. What do you think of my concern that Sensor Jammer, Jax, Autothrusters, and Palpatine all in the same list might be putting on a trollface in a casual environment?

As an alternative to the shuttle, you could consider a pair of Academy Pilots. That frees up 6 points, enough to put Hull upgrade on Jax and Recon Spec on Echo. The nice thing about Academy Pilots is they can add more value to sensor jammer by blocking (especially on those turns when Jax is forced to turn away or just can't quite reach range 1 to deny those focus tokens).

I considered that, but I never feel as if a pair of Academy Pilots have the offensive punch I'd like. Although this would give me a chance to run a fair of the new Epsilon Squadron TIE/fo, if I gave up the initiative bid... might be worth some thought, there.

Echo, Jax and a palpatine shuttle can be pretty strong, but it does have some counters, so I'm not sure I'd call it 'trollface'. It certainly could feel that way against opponent's who are either unfamiliar with the interactions, or have primarily jousting lists and are unable to deal with your arc-dodgers. But that would be true with any arc-dodger vs jouster matchup, regardless of what ships were involved. This list is still not very forgiving to errors---any mistakes in judgment could cost you a game (although Palpatine can mitigate that a bit). Also depends on the 'quality' of players in the league----if they are predominantly newer to the game, then this list might seem 'beardy', but if most of them are experienced, I don't think it would be a problem, especially considering some popular builds may be difficult for you (soontir, ptl+kyle dash, perhaps accuracy correctors, etc).

Academy TIEs aren't there for their damage, although they will likely contribute a bit here and there. I admit that their value may be limited against twin laser turrets, but against anything else, they are invaluable as blockers. If you are worried about the list being 'trollface', going with them (or FO TIEs instead) would dull that feeling I think, but palpatine shuttle is probably 'stronger'.

I don't really think of the maneuver as being limited by the dial. The maneuver is any combo of decloak, BR and green. That gives more positioning possibilities than any dial in the game. As for stress it's a non issue because the green clears it. You turtle with 4 dice plus Evade and Focus or let Fly with FCS and Focus plus an Evade in the hole.

I've tried VI on her and its worthless. All the PS bids are gonna be 9-11. Against lower PS 6=8. Lone Wolf is great but auto free Evade is better. Echo should be very effective vs TLT spam but she'll struggle vs high PS arc dodgers unless you know where they're going.

This is my old Echo/Carnor list:

Carnor Jax — TIE Interceptor 26
Veteran Instincts 1
Autothrusters 2
Royal Guard TIE 0
Ship Total: 29

"Echo" — TIE Phantom 30
Veteran Instincts 1
Fire-Control System 2
Advanced Cloaking Device 4
Ship Total: 37

Soontir Fel — TIE Interceptor 27
Push the Limit 3
Autothrusters 2
Ship Total: 32

It did really well against anything not PS 9+

And this is the list post-Raider release:

Carnor Jax — TIE Interceptor 26
Veteran Instincts 1
Autothrusters 2
Royal Guard TIE 0
Ship Total: 29

"Echo" — TIE Phantom 30
Veteran Instincts 1
Fire-Control System 2
Recon Specialist 3
Advanced Cloaking Device 4
Ship Total: 40

Omicron Group Pilot — Lambda-Class Shuttle 21
Emperor Palpatine 8
Ship Total: 29

Both are 98pts. by the way.

I don't really think of the maneuver as being limited by the dial. The maneuver is any combo of decloak, BR and green. That gives more positioning possibilities than any dial in the game. As for stress it's a non issue because the green clears it. You turtle with 4 dice plus Evade and Focus or let Fly with FCS and Focus plus an Evade in the hole.

I've tried VI on her and its worthless. All the PS bids are gonna be 9-11. Against lower PS 6=8. Lone Wolf is great but auto free Evade is better. Echo should be very effective vs TLT spam but she'll struggle vs high PS arc dodgers unless you know where they're going.

Sometimes, decloak + your green moves (2 bank or 2/3 straight) isn't the move you need. That's what I mean by 'limited by the dial'. Also, SPA just doesn't cut it on a named phantom. It gets awkward and advanced cloaking device certainly makes leveraging the decloak move easier. I won't say that its bad, just not ideal. I prefer VI or lone wolf, although I've heard of push the limit being used successfully on Echo with advanced sensors, so I can certainly seeing it work, but I find it limiting when I've used it.

Veteran Instincts is still valuable on Echo because of Dash mainly (who is pretty **** popular) but also because of aggressors (also popular) and the smattering of PS7/8s that occasionally see competitive play (like Kavil, Xizor, Corran, for example, and now Miranda, Jan and Horton will likely be coming out to play more often).

Dash, Corran, and IG-88 + VI all seem like pretty persuasive reasons to get to PS8 with an initiative bid, to me.

Hope you guys don't mind a bit of 'threadomancy' but I've only just found this thread after coming up with something similar. I've been inspired by the thread on the French National 'Carnor Jam' list (Jax and two Sigma's) and by seeing a chap over on the Northern Gaming Network videos flying Interceptor/Phantom/TIE lists. My list is an attempt to take elements from both and so far...

• Carnor Jax + Push the Limit + Royal Guard TIE + Autothrusters + Stealth Device or Hull Upgrade
• Echo + Veteran Instincts + Sensor Jammer + Advanced Cloaking Device + Recon Specialist or Rebel Captive
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot

Though reading you comments here Vorpal, I'm now considering Tactician on Echo for a one point initiative bid. I think I'm more concerned about Twin Laser spam at the moment but it would be useful against PS8 Brobots. I also agree with blade_mercurial in that the Academies aren't really there for their damage output, rather their ability to gum up the works and generally be a pain in the a$&% (yes, I am british! ). I like the idea of the 'Palp-mobile' shuttle but dropping four points from the list and maintaining an initiative bid seems a bit of a stretch. I would consider dropping the two academies for an old-skool Doomshuttle though. At the moment though I think the Academies are getting my vote!

Hope you guys don't mind a bit of 'threadomancy' but I've only just found this thread after coming up with something similar. I've been inspired by the thread on the French National 'Carnor Jam' list (Jax and two Sigma's) and by seeing a chap over on the Northern Gaming Network videos flying Interceptor/Phantom/TIE lists. My list is an attempt to take elements from both and so far...

• Carnor Jax + Push the Limit + Royal Guard TIE + Autothrusters + Stealth Device or Hull Upgrade
• Echo + Veteran Instincts + Sensor Jammer + Advanced Cloaking Device + Recon Specialist or Rebel Captive
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot

Though reading you comments here Vorpal, I'm now considering Tactician on Echo for a one point initiative bid. I think I'm more concerned about Twin Laser spam at the moment but it would be useful against PS8 Brobots. I also agree with blade_mercurial in that the Academies aren't really there for their damage output, rather their ability to gum up the works and generally be a pain in the a$&% (yes, I am british! ). I like the idea of the 'Palp-mobile' shuttle but dropping four points from the list and maintaining an initiative bid seems a bit of a stretch. I would consider dropping the two academies for an old-skool Doomshuttle though. At the moment though I think the Academies are getting my vote!

I think the Tactician or Recon Specialist are stronger than Rebel Captive here, as you actually WANT the opponent to attack Echo when they can, as her damage mitigation is much higher than Jax's.

Though reading you comments here Vorpal, I'm now considering Tactician on Echo for a one point initiative bid. I think I'm more concerned about Twin Laser spam at the moment but it would be useful against PS8 Brobots. I also agree with blade_mercurial in that the Academies aren't really there for their damage output, rather their ability to gum up the works and generally be a pain in the a$&% (yes, I am british! ). I like the idea of the 'Palp-mobile' shuttle but dropping four points from the list and maintaining an initiative bid seems a bit of a stretch. I would consider dropping the two academies for an old-skool Doomshuttle though. At the moment though I think the Academies are getting my vote!

I recently flew Deathrain, Vader and 2 academies vs. Dash and Miranda, and that was a game where I was wishing I had left the academies at home. Dash one-shotted one of the academies early on and the other lasted much longer, but was not able to have much of an impact against those two particular ships. Not sure that a doom shuttle would've been better though, but its something to consider (HLC really ruins an academy's day).

Hope you guys don't mind a bit of 'threadomancy' but I've only just found this thread after coming up with something similar. I've been inspired by the thread on the French National 'Carnor Jam' list (Jax and two Sigma's) and by seeing a chap over on the Northern Gaming Network videos flying Interceptor/Phantom/TIE lists. My list is an attempt to take elements from both and so far...

• Carnor Jax + Push the Limit + Royal Guard TIE + Autothrusters + Stealth Device or Hull Upgrade
• Echo + Veteran Instincts + Sensor Jammer + Advanced Cloaking Device + Recon Specialist or Rebel Captive
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot

Though reading you comments here Vorpal, I'm now considering Tactician on Echo for a one point initiative bid. I think I'm more concerned about Twin Laser spam at the moment but it would be useful against PS8 Brobots. I also agree with blade_mercurial in that the Academies aren't really there for their damage output, rather their ability to gum up the works and generally be a pain in the a$&% (yes, I am british! ). I like the idea of the 'Palp-mobile' shuttle but dropping four points from the list and maintaining an initiative bid seems a bit of a stretch. I would consider dropping the two academies for an old-skool Doomshuttle though. At the moment though I think the Academies are getting my vote!

Having flown the revised +Palpatine version a few times now, I can't recommend it highly enough.

Using your list as a starting point, though, I think I'd still find a substitute for the Academy Pilots. A Tempest Squadron Pilot + Accuracy Corrector + Proton Rockets is the same price, just about as durable, and enough punch to get through a hardened target with the rockets--especially handy against Brobots. More importantly, it offers a threat your opponent can't afford to ignore entirely. Commander Alozen with an Accuracy Corrector offers a similar targeting dilemma, although without the proton rockets.

A Tempest Squadron Pilot + Accuracy Corrector + Proton Rockets is the same price, just about as durable, and enough punch to get through a hardened target with the rockets--especially handy against Brobots. More importantly, it offers a threat your opponent can't afford to ignore entirely. Commander Alozen with an Accuracy Corrector offers a similar targeting dilemma, although without the proton rockets.

You know what Vorpal? I have to admit that I have never flown a TIE Advanced in my life, even though I've owned one since it was released!

Hah! That's the same list I've been messing with for a league they're talking about starting here.

I still like VI over LW on Echo. The Maarek option gets a lot of the pressure off of everyone else. I haven't found emperor to be nearly as effective when buffing non-SD interceptors.

A Tempest Squadron Pilot + Accuracy Corrector + Proton Rockets is the same price, just about as durable, and enough punch to get through a hardened target with the rockets--especially handy against Brobots. More importantly, it offers a threat your opponent can't afford to ignore entirely. Commander Alozen with an Accuracy Corrector offers a similar targeting dilemma, although without the proton rockets.

You know what Vorpal? I have to admit that I have never flown a TIE Advanced in my life, even though I've owned one since it was released!

Then this is an excellent chance to try it out, no?

Hah! That's the same list I've been messing with for a league they're talking about starting here.

I still like VI over LW on Echo. The Maarek option gets a lot of the pressure off of everyone else. I haven't found emperor to be nearly as effective when buffing non-SD interceptors.

I haven't found it to be a problem, although it may come up as I play it more.

A Tempest Squadron Pilot + Accuracy Corrector + Proton Rockets is the same price, just about as durable, and enough punch to get through a hardened target with the rockets--especially handy against Brobots. More importantly, it offers a threat your opponent can't afford to ignore entirely. Commander Alozen with an Accuracy Corrector offers a similar targeting dilemma, although without the proton rockets.

You know what Vorpal? I have to admit that I have never flown a TIE Advanced in my life, even though I've owned one since it was released!

Then this is an excellent chance to try it out, no?

I've never been afraid to try new things The only problem is I'd need to either go out and buy a Raider or check out fleaBay... Never having flown an Advanced and not playing Epic the Raider passed me by I'm afraid!

Hope you guys don't mind a bit of 'threadomancy' but I've only just found this thread after coming up with something similar. I've been inspired by the thread on the French National 'Carnor Jam' list (Jax and two Sigma's) and by seeing a chap over on the Northern Gaming Network videos flying Interceptor/Phantom/TIE lists. My list is an attempt to take elements from both and so far...

• Carnor Jax + Push the Limit + Royal Guard TIE + Autothrusters + Stealth Device or Hull Upgrade
• Echo + Veteran Instincts + Sensor Jammer + Advanced Cloaking Device + Recon Specialist or Rebel Captive
• Academy Pilot
• Academy Pilot

Though reading you comments here Vorpal, I'm now considering Tactician on Echo for a one point initiative bid. I think I'm more concerned about Twin Laser spam at the moment but it would be useful against PS8 Brobots. I also agree with blade_mercurial in that the Academies aren't really there for their damage output, rather their ability to gum up the works and generally be a pain in the a$&% (yes, I am british! ). I like the idea of the 'Palp-mobile' shuttle but dropping four points from the list and maintaining an initiative bid seems a bit of a stretch. I would consider dropping the two academies for an old-skool Doomshuttle though. At the moment though I think the Academies are getting my vote!

I think the Tactician or Recon Specialist are stronger than Rebel Captive here, as you actually WANT the opponent to attack Echo when they can, as her damage mitigation is much higher than Jax's.

interesting lists on this thread. i wonder of rebel captive is too much a deterrent to attack echo, therefore tactician is the better call?

wout having played the list is recon spec. that good?

Thread, I command thee: RISE!

So I'm off to a competitive event tomorrow, and I'm having a last-minute attack of tweak-itis.

Here's the list as it currently stands:

It's worked fairly well, but I've had a few telling experiences:

• Engagements against 98-point VI Brobots are a toss-up. If the dice fall my way and I'm really on my game, I can win it, but it's rough.
• A cool Scum list with Torkil Mux and some Y-wings with Autoblaster Turrets and Seismic Charges beat me to a pulp. I didn't fly my list well, and in a weird way it was a hard counter--but it still has me on my guard against relying on close-range shots and PS to win games for me.
• Frustratingly, I've had Jax one-shotted by a freaking Academy Pilot, at Range 3. I was using the new damage deck, and although only one damage result got through for the round, it was a crit that ended up Major Explosion/Direct Hit.

PS 9/5 is just as good as 8/8 against anything at PS1-4, which includes a lot of current metagame threats--prominently including TLT spam, which I expect to see. And against PS 9 or PS8 with a strong initiative bid, Fel keeps me in the game rather than being completely outclassed.

I will dearly miss Echo's weird reverse-banked decloak, though, and I mildly dislike moving back to the cliche Fel build from something more unusual. What do you all think?

Looks fun.

I've been wrestling with trying to fit 3 Aces in a build at the same time (an Interceptor, a Phantom, and an Advanced), and having difficulty, and it looks like you're having similar issues.

Looks fun.

I've been wrestling with trying to fit 3 Aces in a build at the same time (an Interceptor, a Phantom, and an Advanced), and having difficulty, and it looks like you're having similar issues.

Yeah. It's a sign of good balance, I think, when I can't quite pack everything I want into a single list, but... yeah, I'm feeling that pull between trying for two good ships or one excellent ship and one ship that's just okay.

Looks fun.

I've been wrestling with trying to fit 3 Aces in a build at the same time (an Interceptor, a Phantom, and an Advanced), and having difficulty, and it looks like you're having similar issues.

Yeah. It's a sign of good balance, I think, when I can't quite pack everything I want into a single list, but... yeah, I'm feeling that pull between trying for two good ships or one excellent ship and one ship that's just okay.

The other super-annoying bit is that all of the aces cost more than 30, so I can't even do it in Escalation well

Is Palpatine doing enough for you in this build, though? I can get Fel and Whisper and a TIE Advanced all together...

Looks fun.

I've been wrestling with trying to fit 3 Aces in a build at the same time (an Interceptor, a Phantom, and an Advanced), and having difficulty, and it looks like you're having similar issues.

Yeah. It's a sign of good balance, I think, when I can't quite pack everything I want into a single list, but... yeah, I'm feeling that pull between trying for two good ships or one excellent ship and one ship that's just okay.

The other super-annoying bit is that all of the aces cost more than 30, so I can't even do it in Escalation well

Is Palpatine doing enough for you in this build, though? I can get Fel and Whisper and a TIE Advanced all together...

Palpatine is fantastic. He usually baits people into attacking him, which gives the others 2-3 rounds of unopposed attacks. If my opponent is smart and heads for one of the more maneuverable ships, the shuttle is a blocker and a decent-sized gun while Palpatine ensure good defensive rolls.