Yeah I'm pretty sure there is no strain. Also the darkside already kinda sorta manifest as long term conscequences. You roll Morality at the end of the adventure. Thus there is a chance you can gain points that would nuetralize that one bad act. That's pretty tempting, as when you make use of the darkside there isn't always going to be a bad thing that happens. Also I find failing if you don't take that darkside pip pretty tempting.

I think the Force would be less fun if I had to wait a turn or two before the power kicked in. The current rules already do a good job of depicting the slide I feel. With the up and down way that Morality can bounce back and forth, one bad action, a series of bad actions, you never know what will push you over that edge.

I know the long term consequences are already there, which was kind of my point: if you put in short term AND long term penalties for using the dark side, it kind of goes against the way it works in the universe, which is short term gains but long-term degradation. My point is that using the darkside is rarely tempting from a player standpoint not because of the Conflict generated, but because of the immediate consequences in suffering Strain and flipping a DP. Giving the option to "give in" to the Dark side and remove those penalties in return for more Conflict gained is my attempt at giving the "seductive" dark side option for players.

You do take strain for using DP, equal to DP you use. F&D p. 280.

I stand corrected.

My point is that using the darkside is rarely tempting from a player standpoint not because of the Conflict generated, but because of the immediate consequences in suffering Strain and flipping a DP.

In a system that makes regular use of "take strain to do X" I don't find taking strain that limiting. It is really no different in that regard from any other power you might use. But ultimately success and failure is what makes using the darkside pip so tempting. You commit to the action before you roll, thus sometimes you are put in situations where failure is not an option. If I'm sneaking past a guard and I decide to use Misdirect I'm committing to using the action. I'm using Misdirect and then if it passes I move. I move and make use of Misdirect. If it comes up all darksides I have to decide "does the guard spot me and sound the alarm" or "do I misdirect him and move past". I use Enhance for a pilot check, I'm already committing to that pilot check and that darkside pip may be the thing standing between me landing safely or me crashing horribly.

Considering the fact that in most cases you've already committed to the action the darkside becomes very tempting as anytime it comes up all darkside you're basically deciding if you pass or fail at something. My character has taken darkside points because I ultimately didn't want to fail at what I was doing.

As for short term gains vs long term degradation ..... I hated mechanical degradation. I like now that any degradation is mostly narrative. It didn't always make sense anyway.

In a system that makes regular use of "take strain to do X" I don't find taking strain that limiting.

Absolutely, but the idea is that the Dark side let's you "cheat" a little bit. It acts like you're getting free power, while hiding the long-term cost it will have on you. It's not that the strain is hugely limiting, it's that removing it makes the Dark Side option go from "Only in emergencies" to "Whenever I don't feel like being patient and think I can handle a little morality drop."

If I'm sneaking past a guard and I decide to use Misdirect I'm committing to using the action. I'm using Misdirect and then if it passes I move. I move and make use of Misdirect. If it comes up all darksides I have to decide "does the guard spot me and sound the alarm" or "do I misdirect him and move past". I use Enhance for a pilot check, I'm already committing to that pilot check and that darkside pip may be the thing standing between me landing safely or me crashing horribly.

Considering the fact that in most cases you've already committed to the action the darkside becomes very tempting as anytime it comes up all darkside you're basically deciding if you pass or fail at something. My character has taken darkside points because I ultimately didn't want to fail at what I was doing.

And for that kind of using the Dark Side in desperation, I think the current system works well and accurately. But what about the non-critical uses of the force, where it's no biggie if you fail the check, just a minor inconvenience? I'd like the Dark Side to still be tempting in those situations as well.

As for short term gains vs long term degradation ..... I hated mechanical degradation. I like now that any degradation is mostly narrative. It didn't always make sense anyway.

I'm not against this, actually. There's a lot of narrative means you can use to represent the pitfalls of the Dark Side, and I find those preferable to just a flat penalty to a stat.

Absolutely, but the idea is that the Dark side let's you "cheat" a little bit. It acts like you're getting free power, while hiding the long-term cost it will have on you. It's not that the strai nis hugely limiting, it's that removing it makes the Dark Side option go from "Only in emergencies" to "Whenever I don't feel like being patient and think I can handle a little morality drop."

I guess if you micro manage your strain then I can see your point. But considering how there is no real penalty for going darksider ....... it really would become just free power at no cost. The game makes enough use of strain as a mechanic that I don't think it will factor into a lot of peoples decisions on if they want to take their chances with a Morality roll later.

But considering how there is no real penalty for going darksider ....... it really would become just free power at no cost.

Well, I do think it's really up to the GM to fully implement the consequences of going dark side, especially since neither of us like just putting in a flat stat penalty. NPC reaction, party conflict, Willpower and Discipline checks to be willing to undertake altruistic tasks, you name it. Regardless if the character went darkside through constant acts of desperation, taking strain the whole way, or if they willingly chose that path, it needs to have consequences galore.

But considering how there is no real penalty for going darksider ....... it really would become just free power at no cost.

Well, I do think it's really up to the GM to fully implement the consequences of going dark side, especially since neither of us like just putting in a flat stat penalty. NPC reaction, party conflict, Willpower and Discipline checks to be willing to undertake altruistic tasks, you name it. Regardless if the character went darkside through constant acts of desperation, taking strain the whole way, or if they willingly chose that path, it needs to have consequences galore.

Sure but I guess since this system has a narrative focus I don't see a real need for a dark side mechanic that makes using the dark side tempting. But it may also be due to my experience with Star Wars in general talking. In my experience most people make the choice to use the dark side for story reasons. Players who don't want to play a dark sider aren't going to take the dark side pip no matter how tempting it may be mechanically. And players who don't care are likely to take it with out requiring a huge mechanical push. I think in this case then we have a nice balance. Darkside use isn't free. But it isn't going to inconvenience you all that much if you dabble in it. I think the GM should then maybe focus on goading his players into taking the darkside pip in situations where for the player it's no biggie.

But then again I think the whole committing to the Force action before you know the outcome goes a long way to helping tempt players.

Sure but I guess since this system has a narrative focus I don't see a real need for a dark side mechanic that makes using the dark side tempting

The way I see it, there's a mechanic that's getting in the way of the dark side being tempting, which should be part of the narrative focus of the game.

In my experience most people make the choice to use the dark side for story reasons. Players who don't want to play a dark sider aren't going to take the dark side pip no matter how tempting it may be mechanically. And players who don't care are likely to take it with out requiring a huge mechanical push.

Which is fine, of course.

Darkside use isn't free. But it isn't going to inconvenience you all that much if you dabble in it.

But this is the heart of the problem to me. (Deliberately) using the dark side shouldn't inconvenience you at all! It should be the epitome of convenience! Taking the high road should be the more difficult option, representing the inherent difficulty and sacrifice it takes to keep to the light.

As a GM, I can hassle players to take the dark side option, but in the end if they've decided it's not worth it, either mechanically or narratively, then I'm not likely to convince them otherwise. I'm not sure how I feel about forcing them to commit before rolling the die, honestly. I feel like it should be a conscious decision on the player, even if it's unconscious for the character.

The way I see it, there's a mechanic that's getting in the way of the dark side being tempting, which should be part of the narrative focus of the game.

I honestly don't see all that many people using the strain issue as their reason for not using the dark side pip. I mean sure maybe in situations where they are low on strain that may come up. But overall the strain loss isn't so bad that people are likely going to blame the strain as their reason. Now having to flip a DP? That I see as being the bigger issue, since it's a group resource and that means your use of the darkside also hampers a general group resource. But then again I honestly don't see that as being too big of an issue.

But this is the heart of the problem to me. (Deliberately) using the dark side shouldn't inconvenience you at all!

It's not an inconvenience. By the logic you're using any ability that makes you use strain to activate is an inconvenience. That means Reflect/Parry are inconveniences.

I'm not sure how I feel about forcing them to commit before rolling the die, honestly. I feel like it should be a conscious decision on the player, even if it's unconscious for the character.

It's not different than committing to any other roll. You don't roll the dice and then decide if you're going to attack someone based on the result. You don't base your decision to sneak past someone by rolling the result first and then deciding if you want to make the attempt based on the result. You commit to the action then roll to see if you succeed or fail. This is no different. You don't know if using the Force helped until the dice are rolled. The player is making a conscious decision, he's just not getting a chance to take back that Force roll if he fails. He has to decide how important success is if that dark side pip comes up.

Isn't that how it works anyway?

"I use move to lift that rock."

*rolls a DS point*

"...But nothing happens."

I honestly don't see all that many people using the strain issue as their reason for not using the dark side pip. I mean sure maybe in situations where they are low on strain that may come up. But overall the strain loss isn't so bad that people are likely going to blame the strain as their reason. Now having to flip a DP? That I see as being the bigger issue, since it's a group resource and that means your use of the darkside also hampers a general group resource. But then again I honestly don't see that as being too big of an issue.

I think it's mostly the combination of the two that does it for me. On their own, I still feel like it works against the general star wars theme of the dark side being seductive. That doesn't mean it brings games to a crashing halt, I just think it could be more representative of what we see in the movies.

It's not an inconvenience. By the logic you're using any ability that makes you use strain to activate is an inconvenience. That means Reflect/Parry are inconveniences.

Just like running out of cash is an inconvenience, running out of strain is an inconvenience. Sure, the act of paying for things isn't in and of itself inconvenient, but it pushes you towards that situation where it becomes so. Meanwhile, getting a "free ride" (with lots of hidden hooks and caveats, of course) is VERY convenient.

It's not different than committing to any other roll. You don't roll the dice and then decide if you're going to attack someone based on the result. You don't base your decision to sneak past someone by rolling the result first and then deciding if you want to make the attempt based on the result. You commit to the action then roll to see if you succeed or fail. This is no different. You don't know if using the Force helped until the dice are rolled. The player is making a conscious decision, he's just not getting a chance to take back that Force roll if he fails. He has to decide how important success is if that dark side pip comes up.

The problem is that by doing this, you're taking the decision to go dark OR light out of the player's hands. At that point they're not giving into temptation, except the temptation to use the force at all. In a way, this almost gives it a 40k vibe to me: you can use that mystical power, but with it comes a real chance that you could seriously makes things much worse in the long run. Which isn't bad, just a different kind of theme than we see in the movies.

I just think it could be more representative of what we see in the movies.

Being as how we don't see the gaming stats and dice rolls play out in the movies as we watch the movies and as such we are left to figure it out on our own to the best of our abilities I'm hard pressed to say that the current method doesn't represent the movies. More so if we don't define seductive power as purely a function of giving someone more mechanical ways to do something.

Just like running out of cash is an inconvenience, running out of strain is an inconvenience. Sure, the act of paying for things isn't in and of itself inconvenient, but it pushes you towards that situation where it becomes so. Meanwhile, getting a "free ride" (with lots of hidden hooks and caveats, of course) is VERY convenient.

A dark sider or someone wanting to use the dark side has to manage their character resources ..... like pretty much every character in the game. A free ride would require a hefty overall mechanical downside to using the dark side. At some point you're going to have to pay a price. So the character pays the price up front. Not exactly a bad thing. Especially when one considers that the downsides for being a dark side user isn't all that bad in the grand scheme of things. The game makes it pretty easy already to use the dark side.

The problem is that by doing this, you're taking the decision to go dark OR light out of the player's hands.

No you don't. That's like saying making them roll for sneaking past a guard is taking away player choice. The player announces he's going to use Misdirect, it comes up darkside pips. The player now chooses ..... does he use the darkside and sneak pass the guard or does he stick to the light and live with the result of failure. For someone who mentioned that sticking to the light should be difficult I don't see a downside here.

In a way, this almost gives it a 40k vibe to me: you can use that mystical power, but with it comes a real chance that you could seriously makes things much worse in the long run. Which isn't bad, just a different kind of theme than we see in the movies.

Not really. They are being asked to make the choice to use the Force before they know if they will succeed. It follows Yoda's Do or Do Not, there is no try. You will either do it ..... or you won't.

I don't see how taking out mechanics is giving some more mechanical ways to do something, instead of giving them less mechanical incentive to do something.

No you don't. That's like saying making them roll for sneaking past a guard is taking away player choice. The player announces he's going to use Misdirect, it comes up darkside pips. The player now chooses ..... does he use the darkside and sneak pass the guard or does he stick to the light and live with the result of failure

I think I might have misunderstood what you meant: I thought you were suggesting that you have the player roll the force die, and he has to use all the pips they come up with, light or dark.

Well, the player always has the choice of how many and which pips to use.

If you roll 3 Force dice and they come up 2 white, 3 black, you could choose to use just the white and ignore the black.

Isn't that how it works anyway?

"I use move to lift that rock."

*rolls a DS point*

Don't flip the DP:

"...but I am unable to maintain my focus."

Flip the DP, and take the strain:

"...initially unable to move the rock, my frustration gets the better of me, and I call upon the dark side to get the job done."

Isn't that how it works anyway?

"I use move to lift that rock."

*rolls a DS point*

Don't flip the DP:

"...but I am unable to maintain my focus."

Flip the DP, and take the strain:

"...initially unable to move the rock, my frustration gets the better of me, and I call upon the dark side to get the job done."

Pretty much.

As a novice Force user, a PC isn't going to be assured of getting even the basic effects of their powers to work, and need to decide is it really worth it to spend the Destiny Point. And the system plays nicely with the core concept of the entire game's mechanics to avert the binary "pass/fail" system that you see in most other big name RPGs.

In the case of Force powers and only rolling one Force die, you either A) pass the check by rolling light side pips, B) fail the check by rolling dark side pips but not converting them, or C) pass the check but suffer strain/conflict/DesPnt flip by rolling dark side pips and converting them.

I've had cases where my characters, even at Force Rating 2, have willingly dipped into the dark side to get an effect to go off, with one recent instance being using Move + Strength Upgrade + Range Upgrade to keep a fellow PC from plummeting to her death (rolled two LS pips and one DS pip). In that case, I probably would have taken more conflict for not doing something to save an ally's life, so 1 point of conflict for that action was no big deal (PC in question is already a Light Side Paragon with a Morality in the low 90's) simply as I deliberately made decisions that wouldn't engender substantial amounts of Conflict. Plus, with a Destiny Pool that was almost entirely Light Side, it's not like we were running short on Destiny Points.

Isn't that how it works anyway?

"I use move to lift that rock."

*rolls a DS point*

Don't flip the DP:

"...but I am unable to maintain my focus."

Flip the DP, and take the strain:

"...initially unable to move the rock, my frustration gets the better of me, and I call upon the dark side to get the job done."

Pretty much.

As a novice Force user, a PC isn't going to be assured of getting even the basic effects of their powers to work, and need to decide is it really worth it to spend the Destiny Point. And the system plays nicely with the core concept of the entire game's mechanics to avert the binary "pass/fail" system that you see in most other big name RPGs.

Well, here's the question: would a PC who wants to be lightside forgo flipping and strain in return for triple the Conflict? Or would they just accept the failure?

I think, for me, that's part of the temptation of the Dark Side: when your attempt to use the light fails, it's there offering you "no string attached" power. If you give in to it unwittingly (i.e. do not consciously harness your emotions and passion to fuel your use of the force) you take strain and flip a FP to represent your unconcious resistance to temptation. If you willfully employ it however, then there is no strain, it comes easily. VERY easily.

I think the point of the system as it stands is to emphasize there /is/ a cost for everything. What they have done is tried to create a situation where light side pips tend to land on none or two more frequently and darkside pips show up more often but in lower numbers.

This means that, in the long run, both give you similar numbers but in the immediate instance there's a frequent possibility of having too few light pips. Meaning, without flipping the dark pip, you may not activate your power or get the results you want. As a temptation they put there in front of you that one or two dark pips that would be just enough to get it to work. Trick is there is a cost. They're there and available frequently, but they're not free.

Flipping a Destiny Point is a good sized cost but I do think the designers were aiming for a system where destiny points flow back and forth fairly frequently. Not constantly but fairly often, especially during the big conflicts. They trigger some talents, they let you turn the tide during an important roll, or they let the GM make that enemy feel just that little bit more resilient. If the pool is fairly fluid then this cost isn't too big a deal. Similarly, Strain is really easy to regain throughout an encounter so that cost is also quite small. Adding the Destiny point makes you give pause to think if that temptation is really worth it or not.

Conflict is all well and good but, from what I have seen, the cost of being a darksider really isn't that steep. But when flipping force points requires destiny points to accomplish it becomes a bit more troublesome. As a darksider you'd often have the minimal points needed to activate powers but trying to get more power out of them requires either more force dice or tapping into those lightside points at a cost (the same cost as when doing it the other way around). If you go straight conflict for the cost, how does this work for darksiders.. do they gain non-conflict? So someone can redeem themselves by just tapping into lightside points all the time instead? Or do you use a different point flipping rule for dark than light, which makes things more confusing?

Isn't that how it works anyway?

"I use move to lift that rock."

*rolls a DS point*

Don't flip the DP:

"...but I am unable to maintain my focus."

Flip the DP, and take the strain:

"...initially unable to move the rock, my frustration gets the better of me, and I call upon the dark side to get the job done."

Pretty much.

As a novice Force user, a PC isn't going to be assured of getting even the basic effects of their powers to work, and need to decide is it really worth it to spend the Destiny Point. And the system plays nicely with the core concept of the entire game's mechanics to avert the binary "pass/fail" system that you see in most other big name RPGs.

Well, here's the question: would a PC who wants to be lightside forgo flipping and strain in return for triple the Conflict? Or would they just accept the failure?

I think, for me, that's part of the temptation of the Dark Side: when your attempt to use the light fails, it's there offering you "no string attached" power. If you give in to it unwittingly (i.e. do not consciously harness your emotions and passion to fuel your use of the force) you take strain and flip a FP to represent your unconcious resistance to temptation. If you willfully employ it however, then there is no strain, it comes easily. VERY easily.

Depends on how you view Conflict.

For me, I tend to view any instance that would earn Conflict as being influenced by the dark side, especially where the Force is involved, but sometimes just in one's mundane actions; drawing your lightsaber to attack first is being influenced by the aggressive aspect of the dark side; just as much as using the Force to crush someone's throat just because they didn't perform their job to your standards. Now a part of that mindset comes from having played Jedi since the days of WEG D6 Star Wars system, when the danger of falling to the dark side was far stricter and the GM encouraged to not be very lenient on what was or wasn't a dark side transgression, and could happen even if your Jedi PC wasn't directly using the Force; if you were Force-sensitive, then that meant having to hold yourself to a higher standard than the rest of the group.

The dark side isn't just hate and anger, but also fear and selfish pride. I think a lot of the hang-ups that some folks are having is based on the older RPGs where it was a very strict dichotomy between using the dark side or not, with dark side usage carrying incredibly stiff penalties; especially in D6. In this system, the dark side point mechanic is a whole lot softer; for all we know, Obi-Wan and Yoda were making use of dark side pips during the Clone Wars to ensure those times they needed a Force effect to work, it did. But at the same time, they were otherwise avoiding the lure of the dark side (i.e. not doing things that would earn then large amounts of conflict) in their actions so as to maintain their Light Side Paragon status. Anakin was constantly succumbing to the dark side's lure, both when using the Force and in how he went about doing things, and so falling to the dark side was pretty much a given, especially with Palps stroking/fueling the boy's ego.

My view on conflict is that the more selfish, prideful, rash, etc the action is, the more Conflict it will generate.

Thus, there is a difference in my mind between willfully calling upon the Dark Side of the force to make a force power go off, and doing so without intending to. The latter generates much less conflict because there was no willful surrender to the Dark Side for that power, but the Dark Side was still used so there is still Conflict generated.

Our groups been playing it to where it does not cost a Destiny point. You take strain already for it, no need to be doubly hammered.

I think actions should be what determines your morality, not the dice screwing you when you need a clutch power. Especially before you have that 2nd Force Rating. Once you have multiple force dice its a little easier.

Why does using a DS pip cost a Destiny Point? So that when you fall it's so much harder to redeem yourself. It's also so that a Dark Side NPC who doesn't care about conflict or strain can't use Light Side pips for essentially no cost. It's all to keep rules simple and balanced

Why does using a DS pip cost a Destiny Point? So that when you fall it's so much harder to redeem yourself.

Oh, a darkside user would DEFINITELY have to take the strain and flip the destiny point to use light side pips. It's easy to fall to the dark side, but redemption is another matter entirely.

Our groups been playing it to where it does not cost a Destiny point. You take strain already for it, no need to be doubly hammered.

I think actions should be what determines your morality, not the dice screwing you when you need a clutch power. Especially before you have that 2nd Force Rating. Once you have multiple force dice its a little easier.

The thing is the dice aren't screwing you. The Force in this system isn't a power that always works. There's a chance for failure. Like any other roll in this game. The darkside simply allows you to turn failure into success. Also ..... if you're using the Force in a clutch situation then it sounds like the perfect time to be gaining some darkside shenanigans.

Your flipping of a Destiny Point has another importance. Strain and Conflict are both internal, a Destiny Point is external. Thus the flipping of one is a mechanical way to represent a lasting effect on the world around you. Your changing the balance of the force in your vicinity and causing unknown side effects.

I think what i would do is to keep the DP flip bud drop, or at least reduce the strain cost for that check, the Dark Side is supposed to be the quick easy tempting option. but if they use a DS pip then when they try to use LS pips later on it adds strain, kinda hitting on the idea of climbing back up a slippery slope type theme