So, I'm in a game with 5 PCs, where I am the only force sensitive character (a Sentinel/Artisan).

Every time I use the dark side, I mostly just feel like I'm screwing the other players over by taking away a group resource. Generally for something that my character that is interested in doing that may or may not help the whole group.

In contrast, when our group generally spends a destiny point, we use those on roles that are important to winning the battle, or advancing our group goals in the story arc.

On one hand, my question is almost laughable because the dark side should be selfish... but I don't wany my in-game in-character actions to take away from my fellow players mechanical enjoyment of the game.

Note, I am not actually playing a character that is going darkside. After 4 sessions my Morality is back to 50 due to my intentionally balacing the amount of conflict I earn (and some lucky d10 morality rolls). I'm actually trying to stay grey.

So, back to the topic title, does anyone know the design intent behind the destiny point cost of using dark side pips?

The design intent is simple. To apply a cost so that the player doesn't just use whichever type of pip comes up *more* on a given roll.

From a mechanics point of view, you're paying a cost to pull off something you normally wouldn't have been able to do. it's no different in that respect, than flipping a light side point to upgrade a die on your roll.

Really, though, it works thematically as well. You're specifically giving into the dark side, to pull off something you normally wouldn't have been able to do. You're making the dark side *stronger*, even if only for a short time.

"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

Depending on your table's style, Destiny points should be flipping back and forth frequently. They are resources, and important ones, but they shouldn't be rare. There are many mechanics in the game that use them as currency, and "slow playing" the points can't ham string that.

What Tear44 said, during structured play there probably should be at least 1 DP flip every round. It's important for the GM to grasp this as they are the ones who need to use them the most to give the PC's the freedom to get creative.

On the OP topic, if you don't want to have to flip a DP for using the Dark side, fall to the Dark side! Then you only have to flip them to use the light side

What would it change, if you could choose between taking Morality OR flipping a destiny? Keep the strain cost untouched, of course.

What Voice said.

Not a big fan of the DP mechanic overall. If they're just supposed to flip back and forth all the time, always available when you need it, then it creates no tension; it's not really a resource, just a distraction. Just another metagamey thing for the GM to worry about when he should be focusing on the story. Might as well dispense with the chits and let everyone (GM and player alike) "use" them whenever.

Unfortunately, too many talents rely on the DP mechanic as the sole "resource", to cavalierly handwave away, so I would like to see a good house rule that dispenses with DP in a way that's close to being balanced...

Also worth mentioning: Morality is a mechanic that is both unique to FaD and not really the offset for darkside use. So the Dpoint cost is able to apply to games not using Morality like AoR and EotE while keep force use consistent across the system set.

The DP mechanic is about how you choose to use the point.

A player can only use one per action. If they use it to fuel the Force, they cannot use it to boost a roll. Or activate a talent that uses destiny as a requirement.

If the points are horded by one side or another, it takes the ability to make a choice away.

Also as mastery of the Force grows (rating wise) it helps reduce demand for Destiny.

If the Force result is important enough to use the Dark Points, it should cost a Destiny Point because you're feeding the Dark Side (the GM).

The DP mechanic is about how you choose to use the point.

A player can only use one per action. If they use it to fuel the Force, they cannot use it to boost a roll. Or activate a talent that uses destiny as a requirement.

If the points are horded by one side or another, it takes the ability to make a choice away.

Also as mastery of the Force grows (rating wise) it helps reduce demand for Destiny.

Pretty much this; both your group and your GM should be spending the pool judiciously to give a boost to possible success, heighten tension, and active abilities you've earned. The pool should not be stagnant or hoarded. You don't have to spend it on every roll, but it should be used often.

Mechanically, having to flip a Destiny Point to use a dark side pip is a balancing factor to keep Force users from utterly dominating the game, especially once they've started investing XP into various Force powers.

As was noted earlier, Morality/Conflict is a mechanic that's brand new to Force and Destiny, and not in the other two books. And even then, suffering only 1 Conflict and 1 Strain isn't that much of a hurdle; used judiciously you could probably get away with using dark side pips and not suffer any huge drops in Morality.

Thus, the Destiny Point cost, which combined with how the Force dice are laid out makes the player have to decide if their neophyte Force user really needs that power to go off or not.

The DP mechanic is about how you choose to use the point.

I think the darkside costing a DP is perfect. It allows for their to be a cost for making use of the darkside with out having to do all the horrible bad stuff that previous games attempted to do when adding a cost for using the darkside. No more stat degeneration.

I think the darkside costing a DP is perfect. It allows for their to be a cost for making use of the darkside with out having to do all the horrible bad stuff that previous games attempted to do when adding a cost for using the darkside. No more stat degeneration.

Just curious what did previous games do? I tried to briefly run a Saga game a few years back, but I've always found the D&D 3.5 system it was based on to be a convoluted mess so it didn't last long and I don't remember the penalties.

What's ironic is when the Destiny pool is all dark side. Then you don't get to use any more dark side. Because it has what the it wants already.

I think the darkside costing a DP is perfect. It allows for their to be a cost for making use of the darkside with out having to do all the horrible bad stuff that previous games attempted to do when adding a cost for using the darkside. No more stat degeneration.

Just curious what did previous games do? I tried to briefly run a Saga game a few years back, but I've always found the D&D 3.5 system it was based on to be a convoluted mess so it didn't last long and I don't remember the penalties.

Normally stat decreases. I don't recall what Saga's were off the top of my head. I just recall not liking WotC idea of a darksider gaining stat penalties.

Just curious what did previous games do? I tried to briefly run a Saga game a few years back, but I've always found the D&D 3.5 system it was based on to be a convoluted mess so it didn't last long and I don't remember the penalties.

There was no stat degeneration in Saga Edition, at least as far as I recall. The penalty for falling to the dark side was that you lost the character; it became an NPC. Also, as a clarification, Saga wasn't based on 3.5; it was the forerunner for 4e. The "convoluted mess" was actually WotC's Star Wars: The Roleplaying Game (Original/Revised).

IIRC, there was a lot of house ruling going on back in the Saga days about how to degenerate stats for dark side users, but it was only ever house rules.

Personally, I'm not too thrilled with the mechanics of flipping a DP AND suffering strain for using dark pips alongside of the conflict gain.

Mostly, this is for narrative reasons. The Dark is seductive and easy. It should always be there, tempting players. With the current mechanics, however, it's only tempting if you're absolutely in an emergency and have to have that force power go off right fragging now . Which is great in its own sense for dramatic tension, but what about the time a player wanted to use the Force pick an ID card out of a stormtrooper's pocket instead of risking a Skullduggery check? He rolled a dark pip. He's not in any hurry, so he declines gaining strain and flipping a DP in favor of just making the check and flipping a DP to make the check easier, while suffering no strain and gaining no conflict. There was no temptation for him, because in that case the dark side WASN'T easy, it was actually the more difficult and resource-intensive option.

What I'm thinking of doing (and I think I saw this idea elsewhere on these boards, but I can't remember where, so forgive me if I don't credit the original source) is allowing a player to use dark pips for no strain and no DP flip, but doubling the Conflict gained. Essentially, this would represent a player willfully calling on the dark side instead of just having clouded emotions while calling on the Force. This way, you could differentiate between a character quickly choosing the path of the dark side and a character making rash and hasty choices that are slowly dragging them, unwillingly, to the Dark side.

What I'm thinking of doing (and I think I saw this idea elsewhere on these boards, but I can't remember where, so forgive me if I don't credit the original source) is allowing a player to use dark pips for no strain and no DP flip, but doubling the Conflict gained. Essentially, this would represent a player willfully calling on the dark side instead of just having clouded emotions while calling on the Force. This way, you could differentiate between a character quickly choosing the path of the dark side and a character making rash and hasty choices that are slowly dragging them, unwillingly, to the Dark side.

That sounds very good.

If the Force result is important enough to use the Dark Points, it should cost a Destiny Point because you're feeding the Dark Side (the GM).

The DP mechanic is about how you choose to use the point.

A player can only use one per action. If they use it to fuel the Force, they cannot use it to boost a roll. Or activate a talent that uses destiny as a requirement.

If the points are horded by one side or another, it takes the ability to make a choice away.

Also as mastery of the Force grows (rating wise) it helps reduce demand for Destiny.

Pretty much this; both your group and your GM should be spending the pool judiciously to give a boost to possible success, heighten tension, and active abilities you've earned. The pool should not be stagnant or hoarded. You don't have to spend it on every roll, but it should be used often.

Reminds me of the time you flipped destiny to get the skill roll to work and then did not have destiny to flip force points...

Personally, I'm not too thrilled with the mechanics of flipping a DP AND suffering strain for using dark pips alongside of the conflict gain.

Mostly, this is for narrative reasons. The Dark is seductive and easy. It should always be there, tempting players. With the current mechanics, however, it's only tempting if you're absolutely in an emergency and have to have that force power go off right fragging now . Which is great in its own sense for dramatic tension, but what about the time a player wanted to use the Force pick an ID card out of a stormtrooper's pocket instead of risking a Skullduggery check? He rolled a dark pip. He's not in any hurry, so he declines gaining strain and flipping a DP in favor of just making the check and flipping a DP to make the check easier, while suffering no strain and gaining no conflict. There was no temptation for him, because in that case the dark side WASN'T easy, it was actually the more difficult and resource-intensive option.

What I'm thinking of doing (and I think I saw this idea elsewhere on these boards, but I can't remember where, so forgive me if I don't credit the original source) is allowing a player to use dark pips for no strain and no DP flip, but doubling the Conflict gained. Essentially, this would represent a player willfully calling on the dark side instead of just having clouded emotions while calling on the Force. This way, you could differentiate between a character quickly choosing the path of the dark side and a character making rash and hasty choices that are slowly dragging them, unwillingly, to the Dark side.

It is there tempting you. It is not however clubbing you over the head. You are more likely to roll some darkside pips when ever you try and use the force. The temptation will likely always be there. You could do more with this roll if you flip the points...You know you want to... what is a little conflict? It probably won't hurt anything...

Personally, I'm not too thrilled with the mechanics of flipping a DP AND suffering strain for using dark pips alongside of the conflict gain.

I don't have the book handy but I thought you only gained strain when you were a Lightsider paragon. If I recall right just using the darkside before you hit that point is just going to cause you to flip a DP and gain some Conflict. I could be wrong though since I don't have the book in front of me.

Going from the beta rulebook, at least (p. 195), you suffer 1 strain per dark pip used to generate force points unless you're a darksider (<30 morality). I don't know if this changed after release.

It is there tempting you. It is not however clubbing you over the head. You are more likely to roll some darkside pips when ever you try and use the force. The temptation will likely always be there. You could do more with this roll if you flip the points...You know you want to... what is a little conflict? It probably won't hurt anything...

I mean, if I'm 1 strain from my strain threshold and I want to use those two dark pips I just rolled, it functionally IS clubbing me over the head. I'm going to take two strain and pass out/otherwise be incapacitated. That's not really tempting, in or out of character, and that's not even taking into account flipping a DP in the bargain.

I feel that the cost of using the Dark Side should manifest via long-term consequences, ala the strain threshold drop, while using the Light should be less immediately rewarding (you might need to be patient and wait until next turn for another chance at light-side pips as that wampa bears down on you) but bear fruit over the long run. In the meantime, you can differentiate between someone letting their emotion cloud their judgement and suffering the strain and destiny consequences of that, and someone actively using the dark side and suffering no strain, but a very quickly escalating Conflict score.

In short, some people slide down the slippery slope and some people leap. And some people rocket off the edge laughing hysterically while flipping the bird and leaving a glittering trail of hookers and blow.

Yeah I'm pretty sure there is no strain. Also the darkside already kinda sorta manifest as long term conscequences. You roll Morality at the end of the adventure. Thus there is a chance you can gain points that would nuetralize that one bad act. That's pretty tempting, as when you make use of the darkside there isn't always going to be a bad thing that happens. Also I find failing if you don't take that darkside pip pretty tempting.

I think the Force would be less fun if I had to wait a turn or two before the power kicked in. The current rules already do a good job of depicting the slide I feel. With the up and down way that Morality can bounce back and forth, one bad action, a series of bad actions, you never know what will push you over that edge.

You do take strain for using DP, equal to DP you use. F&D p. 280.