For reference:

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/183807-wave-8-what-we-know-and-how-we-know-it/page-1#entry1713373

Now that we know what the TIE/FO consists of, is the TAP going to completely replace it? TAP has one more shield but one less hull, a missile slot and boost instead of evade. I guess the title makes all the difference here, allowing for a free action, giving an offensive and defensive boost. The TIE/FO does have a new upgrade type, but as of now,there is only one card for it. (I expect more of them when the other two missing X-Wing ID's become known) The unknown cost for TAP generics will ultimately determine whether or not the TIE/FO generics ever see the table after wave 8 hits.

I'm sure TIE/FO generics are cheaper than TAP generics and they'll find a place being sprinkled into TIE swarms to get a little more defense as opposed to just flying a Backstabber out there to get one-shotted. The Tech upgrade slot hopefully will give it valuable options, too. The TAP's dial might be worse. The TIE/FO unique pilots' pilot abilities won't be duplicated by TAP pilots, of course.

We haven't even started putting TIE/FOs on the table yet ... isn't it a little early to talk about them getting replaced? =P

can we let the FO at least have a day of play before we try finding replacements ?

can we let the FO at least have a day of play before we try finding replacements ?

No, the forums must constantly be full of doom and calamity or else Palpatine gets cranky and since the whole 't65 is dead' thing is boring to the dark lord we must march forward and discuss why the mist hunter replaces the TIE defender.

The dial on the tie /fo is crazy thought. Green 2 hards and 2 sloop as it's only flip. I reckon the new prototype will have a more traditional dial, maybe similar to the advance but with more green.

The dial on the tie /fo is crazy thought. Green 2 hards and 2 sloop as it's only flip. I reckon the new prototype will have a more traditional dial, maybe similar to the advance but with more green.

It also has a K-turn.

The /fo definitely has a crazy dial -- I'd call it better than a squint's, with the 2 sloops outweighing the lack of a green 4 straight. At the same time, though, I have to admit that, when I opened up my shiny new box and looked at my shiny new toys, I immediately thought. "Oh, so it's like the Imperial A-Wing! Wait a minute, I've had that thought before . . . ."

The Prototype has the Boost for Authothrusters.

I'm banking that the Inquisitor is priced much higher than the others because of his great pilot ability, putting the PS 2 card at 16 points maybe.

one very strange thing to remember about the v1: boost (thrusters!), but no innate evade

they pay a 1 point tax + require a TL action to acquire it. This is a boon with PTL, but not sure how it works with just run of the mil 1 action

It might be 20 points, It's kind of hard to tell. But with the FO starting at 15 the stat line look very similar TAP has more of a shield shell than the FO.

Still it all depends on the Dial, the boost may help the TAP a lot with autothrusters but I think the FO will be cheaper.

Even if the TAP is better in most ways, it won't have a pilot that can remove stress from everyone within range 1 of him, so he'll at least be seeing play.

can we let the FO at least have a day of play before we try finding replacements ?

I think the TAP has been replaced at day 0

If the TAP is more than 16 points for the base level it's dead on arrival anyway.

At 16 you add the title and Autothrusters for 19 three points under the advanced is about right.

The TAP has equal firepower and is safer against turrets and has two shields it's dial would have to be really terrible for it not to outshine the fo on every level.

If the TAP is more than 16 points for the base level it's dead on arrival anyway.

At 16 you add the title and Autothrusters for 19 three points under the advanced is about right.

The TAP has equal firepower and is safer against turrets and has two shields it's dial would have to be really terrible for it not to outshine the fo on every level.

No...no, no, no. If it isn't sitting at 19-20 it will be way undercosted, 16 and you might as well replace LNs too. Why would they release the FO if they planned to make it obsolete that quickly? I still don't understand the people saying that generic FOs are bad either. They have amazing dials that are actually on the boarder of too good. I'm so glad the majority of the people on these boards have no say in ship development.

The TIE/fo has Evade, Target lock, Barrel Roll and Focus. It has TIE interceptor level greens, s-loop 2s on a small base and a koiogran. It has six pilots to the TIE/v1's four, all with great pilot abilities. While I doubt its generics'll see as much use as the higher pilot skill and excellent value aces, they're excellent, very maneuverable filler craft. Furthermore, Episilon Leader is almost certainly a new part of the TIE swarm next to Howlrunner. With its extra survivability and added Boost Action it may be a better value blocker than even the Academy Pilot.

The TIE/v1 trades Evade for Boost, becoming more aggressive right off the bat, and having both Boost and Barrel gives it much stronger repositional ability than the TIE/fo. It has the 1pt TIE/v1 title, giving even its generics double action economy (and access to the Evade action, something they otherwise lack), and dial and EPT permitting PTL'll give it triple. Furthermore it comes with a Missile slot, something the TIE/fo lacks. This allows it to act as a cheap missile carrier that's much more combat capable and agile than a naked TIE bomber, especially if all it carries is a Thread Tracer.

They aren't better than one another, they're just different. Each has its own strengths.

No...no, no, no. If it isn't sitting at 19-20 it will be way undercosted

With the TIE advanced x1 at 21 (22 for ATC Edition)? Pilot Skill Subtraction on the Inquisitor puts it at 19 assuming the Inquistor pays nothing for pilot ability or EPT slot, and he's certainly paying for that ability. I'd expect it to pricier than the TIE/fo which puts it at about 17 (at 16 it's roughly equally costed to the TIE/fo as Epsilon Sqd Pilot is PS1 and Sienar Test Pilot is PS2).

While I doubt very much it'll beat the TIE/fo's dial, I don't think the TIE/v1'll have a worse dial than the TIE fighter.

If the TAP is more than 16 points for the base level it's dead on arrival anyway.

At 16 you add the title and Autothrusters for 19 three points under the advanced is about right.

The TAP has equal firepower and is safer against turrets and has two shields it's dial would have to be really terrible for it not to outshine the fo on every level.

No...no, no, no. If it isn't sitting at 19-20 it will be way undercosted, 16 and you might as well replace LNs too. Why would they release the FO if they planned to make it obsolete that quickly? I still don't understand the people saying that generic FOs are bad either. They have amazing dials that are actually on the boarder of too good. I'm so glad the majority of the people on these boards have no say in ship development.

At 19 points your better off with an advanced it's got more hull can take a selection of sensor upgrades.

What's more at 19 your better off with an interceptor more attack and able to mount two mods to the TAP's one.

If the TAP isn't 16-17 it's got no place as there are better options at the 20 point band.

The fo dials fine but your never gonna take it over the cheaper /ln because as the headhunter has shown us four hits isn't that much harder to kill than three, you'll notice no one takes hull upgrades on ties, TL is pointless when you can focus, and sloop has failed to raise any eyebrows it's not some game winning move.

No one's gonna run a sixty point mini swarm.

The fo dials fine but your never gonna take it over the cheaper /ln because as the headhunter has shown us four hits isn't that much harder to kill than three

Z-95s have two agility and no Evade action. Comparable durability is the A-wing, which is a really tough little bastard.

No one's gonna run a sixty point mini swarm.

Basic Howlrunner + 3 Academy miniswarm is 54 points. Obsidians make that 57.

I agree though, on swarming the TIE/ln's probably still stronger because the more TIEs you take the more times that 3 point difference gets multiplied (that's why pilot skill is so much cheaper on TIE fighters and Z-95s.)

The sixty point miniswarm is actually an excellent example to compare relative strengths and weaknesses: sixty points gets you four Epsilon Squadron Pilots or five Academy Pilots.

In terms of health, the Epsilons actually win: 4 x 4 = 16, 3 x 5 = 15. Furthermore, four of those hit points on the Epsilon are shields. They also win on dial, hands down.

The Academy TIE swarm wins in terms of bodies when it comes to blocking and in terms of dice: the fifth TIE comes with another attack. However, as their health is lower your TIEs die more quickly, meaning the pool of dice diminishes faster for the TIE/ln than the TIE/fo. This gives TIE/fos the defense advantage and a maneuverability advantage that cannot be understated for the cost of one two die attack a round, and we all know how much defense is valued nowadays.

However, what'll keep the TIE fighter as the King of Swarmers is one thing: Howlrunner. Howlrunner can't fly a TIE/fo, which means sticking in formation with her negates any TIE/fo's maneuverability advantages. Furthermore, surrounding Howlrunner with Epsilons makes her a very obvious target, even moreso than usual.

What's more at 19 your better off with an interceptor more attack and able to mount two mods to the TAP's one.

The Alpha kind of sucks, and once you start stacking the mods (which needs at least a 22 point RGP to do) it becomes a high twenties ship.

It's four hull behind 3 green. So honestly not remotely a fair comparison, more like an A-wing which does see play, hell it is an A wing with barrel roll. It's much better then you believe. If you don't find that dial amazing, well you and I are playing a different game. I am planning on running them when ever I have the chance. Oh, and I was planning on running a 60 point mini swarm once the blisters for them come out. But hey you can tell me it won't be good, just like when people told me interceptors were no good pre AT. I still did great.

The TAP would have a place at the 18-19 point band, expectially once you figure in AT and the title. Yeah you are running 21-22 points but you have a great action econ with a relatively tanky ship. Even with sensors the regular Adv. can't take AT.

I'm leaning toward 17 for the basic V1. With the title alone, it is a ship with a pretty good balance of offense and defense. We are getting to the point where ships will have niches. The zero sum game of there only being one ship good at the point range ignores a lot about the game.

one very strange thing to remember about the v1: boost (thrusters!), but no innate evade

they pay a 1 point tax + require a TL action to acquire it. This is a boon with PTL, but not sure how it works with just run of the mil 1 action

Given that the ruling prohibiting repeated target locks on the same ship has been reversed, it should work well. ETL isn't as versatile as EF or as deadly as FTL, but getting attack and defense modifiers in the same action is pretty great.

The TAP would have a place at the 18-19 point band, expectially once you figure in AT and the title. Yeah you are running 21-22 points but you have a great action econ with a relatively tanky ship. Even with sensors the regular Adv. can't take AT.

Assuming you're talking the base point cost of the cheapest generic, I think the TAP may struggle heavily against the TIE/x1 at that cost seeing as it has a 2 die attack. Sure, it gets Autothrusters, but they only work at long range (where a 2 dicer really doesn't want to be) or against turrets. Add TIE/v1 and you're at the same cost as the TIE/x1 with Accuracy Corrector, which autohits on every attack (like a free super target lock whenever it shoots) and unlike the TAP has a free choice for its other action. Then when you consider that as soon as the TAP is out Thread Tracers will also be out it looks even more dire, because a squad of Tempest x1s with Thread Tracers have little trouble switching their locks around and maintaining action economy. If the Sienar Test Pilot is 18 points (the same as the Alpha Interceptor) it's going to need some serious party tricks to be a contender with the TIE advanced x1. I think 16 or maybe 17 is more likely, with 18-19 being the domain of Baron of the Empire.

Z-95s have two agility and no Evade action. Comparable durability is the A-wing, which is a really tough little bastard.

Have to disagree i've never had much issue with killing either A-wings or Z-95's.

Sure it's got one more green but with a focus thats 1.5 evades, a headhunter has a 50/50 chance with a focus, either way that's one attack you should statistically stop if green dice didn't hate our guts.

The A-wing has an edge because of boost, FO don't got boost but the TAP does so it wins on survivability.

Basic Howlrunner + 3 Academy miniswarm is 54 points. Obsidians make that 57.

No i'm talking 48 points of academies there to block and be a pain, that's a miniswarm to me.

And with tracers missiles you can very cheaply boost them.

Also the sloop really will make keeping a named FO ace in formation a real pain in the butt.

The Alpha kind of sucks, and once you start stacking the mods (which needs at least a 22 point RGP to do) it becomes a high twenties ship.

Alpha just with AT will win against 4xy-wing with tlt the new bogey man.

Me i don't see the TAP generics being used alot because they only have two attack, as we have seen with the advanced 2 attack around the 20 point mark is not viable, the inquisitor will get flown for sure but the generics may well rust the same as e-wings do.

I think the costs will be:

PS2: 18 pts

PS4: 19 pts

PS6: 22 pts

PS8: 25 pts (which is through only one we know)

The jump from PS4 to PS6 is to accommodate the EPT and pilot skill. The jump from PS6 to PS8 is because Inquisitor's ability is so good. I doubt the PS2 will cost less than a PS1 Interceptor.

I'd advise waiting until the rest of TAP, especially the dial, is spoiled

Right now, it seems FOs are gearing for ptl dominance and have monopolized super mega ultra special wingman

TAPs has the (admittedly awesome) inquisitor for long range punch, missiles (tracers! New mod, though the bomber'll prolly love it more!), and thrusters. At the very least, he can hazard a guess that hell see play.

The tie/v title will be interesting but I have no idea how it'll pan out without a dial to gauge with ptl.

Suffice it say: needs more data

In a way it's too bad the TAP didn't have a torpedo slot instead of missiles to synergize with the v1 title. Most of the missiles the TAP will want to use are Attack: Focus and not Attack: Target Lock. Proton Rocket and X-23s seem to be the best fit for the TAP, but the action economy of the v1 means I will only rarely take the focus action on ships that don't have PTL.

Side Note: With the increasing reliance ofln the evade action, do people think Homing Missiles are becoming much more tempting choices?

Since taps aren't out yet, I'm going to try to fit the to tie in somewhere first

Here's an idea:

I still think 40 point redline with 5 academies can be hot ****, but it falls to someone with better behaved green dice to run

As a replacement for those 60 points, I will be trying the more reliable

3 ptl omegas

Epsilon leader

40 point redline

[99]

The loss of blockers is my biggest concern (less bodies, higher PS) but at the same time the arc dodgers you need blockers to pin down are PS 8+

Hopefully the fos give me what ties can't in reliable bodies that can slaughter threatening generics (esp tie/LNS and tlts, neither of which redline enjoys even with thrusters) and just not pop whenever they feel like it

Ep leader allowing redline some flexibility is fun too