One thing that I hear a lot from X-Wing players is that the scale in Armada is terrible and that's why they won't play.
First, that really makes no sense to me. I would never let scale get in the way of a good game.
But really, just how "bad" is the scale in Armada?
Edited by CeryliaeWell consider that the CR90 is supposed to be 150m in length and the Victory is meant to be 900m (6x the length) and yet the model of the Victory is only about twice the size of the corvette.
If they had made the models to scale, then the large ships would either be huge, driving the prices up too high, or the small ships would be so small they might as well not bother making them. Anyone who lets the scale of the ships stop them from enjoying this game is a nit-picking idiot.
If scale is a must, you simply won't have a table top game with an ISD and XWings. The scale in SW is very extreme, making it nearly impossible to have the most iconic ships in the same game.
If scale is a must, you simply won't have a table top game with an ISD and XWings. The scale in SW is very extreme, making it nearly impossible to have the most iconic ships in the same game.
This is the correct answer.
The game has a sliding scale. As the ships get bigger, the scale slides smaller.
Actually, it's only the Corvette and the Nebulon B that are off-scale. The Gladiator is fairly accurate, and so is the AFMK2 if we take the Victory as a 900 meter scale. The Nebulon B should be 300m and the Corvette 150 meters. (And the fighters obviously !)
The problem if they did the iconic Corvette and Nebulon-B to scale is the fact that they really wouldn't look much on the tabletop compared to the Victory. It would also be hard to explain the power levels (why does such a small ship throw a third of the total firepower of the Victory Star Destroyer ?). So for "cinematic" and gameplay logic they upscaled these two ships.
To be honest, I don't really have a problem with the scale of the models (it's still beautiful to look at). The only "problem" I have (and even still, it's not really a problem) is how powerful the Corvette and the Nebulon are compared to the Victory, which is supposed to be bristling with guns.
I take solace in the fact that these 2 Rebel ships go down like flies when not played properly, even if statswise they aren't too far off the Victory in terms of hull and shields (Even though they have 1/2 of the Victory's hull and 2/3 of its shield, the Corvette feels like it can die more than twice as easy as a Victory). The defense tokens gameplay really captured the feel of how fragile the Rebel ships are compared to Imperial ships, and you do get the feeling that if they survive it's because you have flown them properly. So, it really feels like in the movies
How bad is it?
Quite simply, it's not.
The large ships are all scaled fairly well, with the differences ranging from being small enough to not matter, to obviously necessary (As in the case of fighter squadrons being represented by three overscaled fighters rather than, say, pinhead sized fightercraft.
Yeah, the Corvette got bigger and more powerful than it should be, but whatever, it's the first starship we see in the entire Star Wars franchise, I can forgive them wanting to make it a viable threat.
And, I have to say, someone who won't try Armada because of the scale, of all things, is probably full of dren. If they can handle the Huge ship scale issues in X-Wing I'm surprised they even noticed the ones in Armada.
If you were to ask me to compare the two, I'd say to forget about scale and pay attention to the game. Armada is an INCREDIBLY well crafted game with remarkable nuance and attention to detail with room for both strategic and tactical decision making to play out over the course of every battle, with no two happening the same way.
Actually, it's only the Corvette and the Nebulon B that are off-scale. The Gladiator is fairly accurate, and so is the AFMK2 if we take the Victory as a 900 meter scale. The Nebulon B should be 300m and the Corvette 150 meters. (And the fighters obviously !)
We know the ISD is not at the same scale as the VSD. It would have to be nearly twice the length of the VSD, and it isn't.
The ISD is likely going to be around 20 CM, or 1/8000 scale.
Also, it will be interesting to see how big the Raider is. If it is the same size as the CR90 (which it is in the lore), then that should prove they at least stick to scale within each size range. If it is not the same size as the CR90, they use a unique scale for each individual ship.
Actually, if you look at the 1/7000 scale thread, you will see models to scale and how they look on the table. I think they look fantastic, but then, I painted many of them.
For me and others, the cinama of the game is very important. The Empire is supposed to be a huge, industrialized, overpowering force. The rebellion is supposed to be small, desperate and fighting against tremendous odds in a very uphill war. The 1/7000 models offered by Utar and Mel (other members of the community) give that the table that look. While the FFG corvette and Nebula are beautiful models, they do not convey that sense you get in the opening scene of A New Hope.
Having in scale models just enhances what is already a great game. For instance, the 1/7000 CR-90 is mounted on a stand with 3 ships. That way it actually fights like a detachment of destroyers would in the WWII battles Star Wars most closely resembles. It also give a more reasonable explanation why such a small ship would have so much power.
Fortunately, there are practical alternatives in 1/7000 scale. As I mentioned, check out the pictures on that thread to see what I mean.
Another note, the Nebulon B and the Gladiator are nearly identical in length in the game. However, in the lore the Gladiator is 500 meters long, and the Nebulon B is 300 meters long. That is a HUGE difference. The Nebulon B should be a few CM smaller while the Gladiator and Assault Frigate Mk2 should probably be 1-2 CM bigger to really get a smooth progression that mirrors the lore.
However regardless of all that, the pieces look good and I don't have any jarring moments looking at the stuff on the table while I play.
I don't see how it really matters when they get shuffled into ship "Size" classes right away... The plastic model doesn't even have to be there, after all... (in fact, yuo should remove it if it ever impedes anything game-related)
Fortunately, there are practical alternatives in 1/7000 scale. As I mentioned, check out the pictures on that thread to see what I mean.
So that huge 17km star destroyer ends up being 2429mm, impressive, that is just a touch over 8' to go on a 3' table, most impressive.
As far as how bad the scale goes, probably your best best is to eye ball the various ships in their boxes, and see for yourself. I think the game is great, the sliding scale works and still makes the game a joy to play. YMMV.
I would agree with most here and say the scale is good as is I mean where else can you get a Victory class Star Destroyer that looks as good as the one in Armada?
I like the game and I am waiting for the Wave 2 ships like everyone else.
Michael
Fortunately, there are practical alternatives in 1/7000 scale. As I mentioned, check out the pictures on that thread to see what I mean.
So that huge 17km star destroyer ends up being 2429mm, impressive, that is just a touch over 8' to go on a 3' table, most impressive.
As far as how bad the scale goes, probably your best best is to eye ball the various ships in their boxes, and see for yourself. I think the game is great, the sliding scale works and still makes the game a joy to play. YMMV.
I don't see the need for snark and sarcasm. Nor did I see the need to mock anyone else's opinion in my post. It would be nice if discussions could be mutually respectful. I don't think that is too much to hope for. Did you bother to look at the pictures? Do you have an opinion about the cinama of the in scale ships together, once you saw them?
As for a 1/7000 scale SSD, I don't see a need for it in this game. Game mechanics, not scale, may be an eliminating factor there. Having said that, I'd love to build one. It would be "most impressive," and might even be useful for convention style mega-games. I could deffinately see it as a scenario driver, if not a true gaming piece.
The costs alone for it all to be in scale would be astronomical. So no. People like to complain I guess.
The costs alone for it all to be in scale would be astronomical. So no. People like to complain I guess.
Who is complaining?
DarkSaber19 has it exactly right. By extension from his point, if the game were true to scale, there could be no fighter minis at all. True scale fighters would be so small as to have no meaningful detail. And that would leave us with just blank bases for fighters.
That said, FFG have worked out a sliding scale. So far, they seem to be sticking to it. For any given model, if the canon says the ship is twice the length, the model ends up being half again as long. That relationship only holds within a given fleet. I have yet to see anyone work out the relationship between the bench-mark Rebel ship and the benchmark Imperial ship. However, a CR-90 -- scaled to the SD's -- would just look silly compared to the fighter minis.
So FFG went with a sliding scale: the size relationships hold, and the minis look good on the table together.
I really wanted a "to scale" armada game, and only the corvettes and nebulon B's needed correct scaling so far, so here are some of the shapeways I have if you're curious.
Fortunately, there are practical alternatives in 1/7000 scale. As I mentioned, check out the pictures on that thread to see what I mean.
So that huge 17km star destroyer ends up being 2429mm, impressive, that is just a touch over 8' to go on a 3' table, most impressive.
As far as how bad the scale goes, probably your best best is to eye ball the various ships in their boxes, and see for yourself. I think the game is great, the sliding scale works and still makes the game a joy to play. YMMV.
I don't see the need for snark and sarcasm. Nor did I see the need to mock anyone else's opinion in my post. It would be nice if discussions could be mutually respectful. I don't think that is too much to hope for. Did you bother to look at the pictures? Do you have an opinion about the cinama of the in scale ships together, once you saw them?
As for a 1/7000 scale SSD, I don't see a need for it in this game. Game mechanics, not scale, may be an eliminating factor there. Having said that, I'd love to build one. It would be "most impressive," and might even be useful for convention style mega-games. I could deffinately see it as a scenario driver, if not a true gaming piece.
As far as I'm concerned, you can't use the shape ways stuff in tourneys, so no use to me. I do agree the scale is a bit off, but I care more about the game itself, and the models provided are fantastic. I couldn't see myself buying the pack, say a CR90 and then spending more money on a different model simply because the scale seems off. It's not that far off as far as I'm concerned. I rather spend that money buying more ships I can actually use in local tourneys and events.
I do understand some people only play casual, and of course they can do whatever they want, but for me I'm sticking to the official models.
Fortunately, there are practical alternatives in 1/7000 scale. As I mentioned, check out the pictures on that thread to see what I mean.
So that huge 17km star destroyer ends up being 2429mm, impressive, that is just a touch over 8' to go on a 3' table, most impressive.
As far as how bad the scale goes, probably your best best is to eye ball the various ships in their boxes, and see for yourself. I think the game is great, the sliding scale works and still makes the game a joy to play. YMMV.
I don't see the need for snark and sarcasm. Nor did I see the need to mock anyone else's opinion in my post. It would be nice if discussions could be mutually respectful. I don't think that is too much to hope for. Did you bother to look at the pictures? Do you have an opinion about the cinama of the in scale ships together, once you saw them?
As for a 1/7000 scale SSD, I don't see a need for it in this game. Game mechanics, not scale, may be an eliminating factor there. Having said that, I'd love to build one. It would be "most impressive," and might even be useful for convention style uldnt mega-games. I could deffinately see it as a scenario driver, if not a true gaming piece.
As far as I'm concerned, you can't use the shape ways stuff in tourneys, so no use to me. I do agree the scale is a bit off, but I care more about the game itself, and the models provided are fantastic. I couldn't see myself buying the pack, say a CR90 and then spending more money on a different model simply because the scale seems off. It's not that far off as far as I'm concerned. I rather spend that money buying more ships I can actually use in local tourneys and events.
I do understand some people only play casual, and of course they can do whatever they want, but for me I'm sticking to the official models.
I see your point, and it's a good one. I'm not a tourney player so I don't face that problem, though. If I did, I kept all the FFG models, so it wouldnt be an issue for me, I'd just switch out my customs for FFGs. I do prefer to "fly casual" so for home games and home campaigns 1/7000 fleets will be the rule.
However, I do play conventions and have some Armada games I will be hosting at an upcoming con in Orlando later this month. They will feature a 1/7000 fleet. Of course, the convention game is a little different, in that it's more about presentation, at least to get people to play your game.
At any rate it's not a "the sliding scale ruins the game!" Issue for me as a it is an enhancement of an already excellent game. Fortunately, there are ways to pursue that enhancement.
Tabletop is about balance and George Lucas is about visual wow-effects. Obviously the two don't mix, so something had to give. Fortunately it was Lucas.
Playability over scaleability any day.
I'd rather have a good SW game with all the iconic ships that are inaccurately scaled than an accurate one with big ships that are either non-existent or prohibitively expensive.
This whole thread to me was formed from a biased opinion.
It was not about "how is the scale" - the question itself was
how bad
is the Scale. Not wther its good or bad, simply how bad it is...
A mind was made up before it was asked, hence why the conversation doesn't really go anywhere...
Having never seen a Nebulon or Victory class in person, I cannot comment.
One thing that I hear a lot from X-Wing players is that the scale in Armada is terrible and that's why they won't play.
First, that really makes no sense to me. I would never let scale get in the way of a good game.
But really, just how "bad" is the scale in Armada?
Everything is made up and frictional. Why do people get so gunhold on the scale?