One wonders if FFG would have gone the three-game, era-specific route had they known there was going to be a new trilogy falling into their laps. Sure would love to be a fly on the wall over there, right now...

I’ve learned to try to avoid second-guessing them, because they’re usually at least a half step or three ahead of me, and even if they were surprised by something they’re usually good enough at recovering that by the time I might have noticed they will have already zigged when everyone else was zagging.

Speaking only for myself, I continue to be amazed at how much hot air and vitriol can be thrown around by people who cannot possibly know the answers to what FFG will really do, because they don’t work there and they don’t call the shots there.

Because you're not the target audience.

Any business model that does not consider it's current audience is doomed to failure. FFG can not going into producing a new core book with out first considering the effect it would have on it's current lines. Because at that point they'll be trying to support 4 lines and if they lose customers due to opening a 4th line then they are not getting ahead in the deal.

So while we may not be the target audience, we are an audience they want to keep buying their products. Unless the customers of the 4th line are intended to also support the other 3 lines the fact that we are not the target is moot.

Your problem is you're treating this as if a Force Awaken core would exist in a vacuum. We are treating it as it would actually exist.

Because the alternative is unfair to new consumers.

Being unfair to your current customers is another bad move. Also there really isn't a way to produce a Force Awaken core that wouldn't require the new people to also buy the other cores (namely Force and Destiny) and not alienate their current base. Again, unless the number of new fans can pick up the slack it is simply a bad business move.

It's sloppy from a business perspective.

No, whats sloppy from a business perspective is angering your core audience on the hopes of gaining a new audience. If they were trying to support 1 line it wouldn't be sloppy. But when we are expected to support 3 lines it is a very sloppy deal to burn us just to open up a 4th one.

Also the idea that a Force Awakens game wouldn't also be meant for us is asinine. It would also ignore everything FFG knows about Star Wars fans. They know the core audience they built already will want it. It is a sloppy business move to act like we don't matter or that it's not meant for us.

I don't think being a year late is going to be a huge deal.

Failing to cash in on the hype when it's at is strongest decreases the odds that opening a 4th line that could piss off it's current fans will not be profitable. A year is a big deal.

Kids will be playing with the toys in the meantime.

Kids are not the main RPG audience and FFG knows this. The idea that a Force Awakens book is targeting kids is ludicrous.

It could be released as a lead-in to the release of Ep VIII.

Leading in implies that it's being made to make play for Ep VIII possible too. But FFG has already admitted they are not kept in the loop. They find out what is in the new movies when we do. This prevents them from being able to lead into any of the new moves.

I think you put too much weight in the righteous fury of fans (and the fiscal implications therein) and too little on the potential for drawing in new fans; but I doubt either of us will be able to convince the other their opinion is right (and it's purely speculative on my end), so it's probably not worth trying. You mention your concern that you're expecting to support three lines, but I'm not sure that's indicative of the majority of consumers. The message board environment can sometimes give us a myopic perspective of the fan base, and I'd guess there's a lot of players just supporting one of the three lines. I'm part of the latter group, and I think that may be where our divergent perspectives on the state of the player base comes from.

I don't know if a new core is a financially viable option, but I'm sure FFG is smart enough to do get a lay of the land before they ever consider releasing another core. I'm not trying to prove why it would be a smart financial decision. I'm just trying to point out why it could be in the right climate, and why the complaints of existing customers of exorbitant pricing would be magnified when looking at fans who are trying to use the NT as an entry point into roleplaying.

(And I didn't mean to suggest that a core release leading in to Ep VIII would include the material to reflect that movie. I just meant the hype from the release would be good exposure to push through a game for customers eager to explore the universe more)

At least you're not trying to use contradictory logic.

I think the problem is you're looking at the cost to yourself but not the cost to potential new consumers.

Let me directly address the question that seems to be at the heart of every dissenter's argument (and I think I'll address your issues in the process):

Why should I pay a premium for a new setting?

Because you're not the target audience.

Like Kael said, ignoring your current market base for the chance to slightly expand your market base is sloppy business.

We aren't going to see eye-to-eye on this. I really just wish people could acknowledge their view point isn't the "only logical/reasonable/intelligent/pragmatic/etc" view point.

But they won't.

It'll be more "Mine is the only view point that makes sense" not even trying to realize how insulting it is to the other side.

I think you put too much weight in the righteous fury of fans (and the fiscal implications therein) and too little on the potential for drawing in new fans

My argument isn't based on fan fury, it's based on good business sense. There is no mathematical way a new Force Awakens market would be able to compensate for the other three lines combined. Even if we were to assume that each game is it's own separate fan base (and it's not) that still leaves them upseting 3 different groups of fans to appease a single group of fans. It's not good business sense. And lets not kid ourselves a new core is going to alienate fans, both old and new (I've outlined before why new fans would actually be upset).

You mention your concern that you're expecting to support three lines, but I'm not sure that's indicative of the majority of consumers.

Because we are? It's bad business logic to design three similar and compatible products and not convert your audience from 3 separate ones to 1 large one. The game is marketed and published in such a way to indicate that FFG see's us all as one big Star Wars market. They are careful to make sure that each game is self contained but only a fool would not try to convert all three fan bases into one giant fan base. The long term longevity of the game more or less relies on them being able to convince as many fans as possible to buy into all 3 lines.

I'm just trying to point out why it could be in the right climate, and why the complaints of existing customers of exorbitant pricing would be magnified when looking at fans who are trying to use the NT as an entry point into roleplaying.

I'm pointing out that the right climate to take the risk this would involve is right now. Once we leave the Force Awakens hype peak the climate becomes less and less right for the success of a 4th line based on that movie. Also there's no way around the fact that new NT fans would still have to buy $180 worth of other books in order to get the complete Star Wars experience. There is no real way that a new core book in the long run works out cheaper for new fans.

(And I didn't mean to suggest that a core release leading in to Ep VIII would include the material to reflect that movie. I just meant the hype from the release would be good exposure to push through a game for customers eager to explore the universe more)

Unless it has Ep VIII material it will fall prey to being viewed as being marketed at the wrong audience. By the time Ep VIII comes out fans who would buy into an rpg will be wanting Ep VIII material and it won't be forthcoming. FFG will always be behind the movies by a year or more, there is just no way for them to cash in on the movie hype aimed at the NT and be relevant.

For instance .... you don't see Disney marketing Avengers I themed material during Age of Ultron. You never saw them marketing Iron Man 1 and 2 stuff when Iron Man 3 came out. The same goes for Thor and will go for all their sequels. Products aimed at the previous installment are not going to sale as well and be as marketable when the hype is around the new thing. You don't see them producing a bunch of Clone Wars action figures. They aren't rolling out a new Qui Gon Jin and Jar Jar Binks action figures. The biggest news in Star Wars toys is all aimed at Ep VII. The same market forces that keeps the products focused on the here and now will apply to an Force Awakens core book released at any point after the hype for it dies down.

I'm not trying to say my perspective is the only one that makes sense. Your assertion seems to be that a fourth core is a terrible idea. Period. My point is that it might not be, under the right circumstances. That said, you're right. Neither of us is going to prove anything to the other, so I'm going to bow out after this post.

That said, this argument is predicated on numbers and demographic data we don't have access to. The question isn't "Will a move like this alienate part of the fanbase?" (plenty of decisions alienate a portion of the fanbase. I'm sure the decision to pursue three core books was controversial in and of itself). It's "Will the portion of the fanbase that's alienated enough to let it affect their spending patterns mitigate the positive effect of new readers?". It's not a question of "Can FFG support four core lines?". It's a question of "What portion of our audience is supporting three lines at a time vs. the portion only buying into one line?" and "How much of the audience drawn in by a new line will start buying into the old lines?". It's not "Will a new line provide the total Star Wars experience?" (because, frankly, nothing will do that). It's "Will a new line provide a comprehensive enough experience to satisfy the customer base's expectations and encourage them to invest more deeply into our games?" It's not "Since we can't release a book at the ideal time, we shouldn't release the book at all". It's "What's the ideal situation for us to release this book, given the circumstances we're in, and will it still be profitable?"

I'm not trying to tell anyone I'm right and they're wrong. I'm just trying to point out that there's a lot of factors in play and there's no absolutes, particularly given the lack of explicit data we have access to. I'm not trying to convince everyone "Yeah! This is a great idea!", just earn an understanding that "Hey, maybe it's not the end of the world, and there might be some positive effects from it."

Sorry if I offended anyone. It certainly wasn't my intent.

That said, this argument is predicated on numbers and demographic data we don't have access to. The question isn't "Will a move like this alienate part of the fanbase?" (plenty of decisions alienate a portion of the fanbase. I'm sure the decision to pursue three core books was controversial in and of itself). It's "Will the portion of the fanbase that's alienated enough to let it affect their spending patterns mitigate the positive effect of new readers?". It's not a question of "Can FFG support four core lines?". It's a question of "What portion of our audience is supporting three lines at a time vs. the portion only buying into one line?" and "How much of the audience drawn in by a new line will start buying into the old lines?". It's not "Will a new line provide the total Star Wars experience?" (because, frankly, nothing will do that). It's "Will a new line provide a comprehensive enough experience to satisfy the customer base's expectations and encourage them to invest more deeply into our games?" It's not "Since we can't release a book at the ideal time, we shouldn't release the book at all". It's "What's the ideal situation for us to release this book, given the circumstances we're in, and will it still be profitable?"

The greater bulk of my post actually addresses those questions. I've actually been addressing what you deem are the right questions the entire time.

just earn an understanding that "Hey, maybe it's not the end of the world, and there might be some positive effects from it."

No one has argued that it's the end of the world. Nor has our argument been that there are no positive effects. That understanding was already had when we entered the discussion.

One wonders if FFG would have gone the three-game, era-specific route had they known there was going to be a new trilogy falling into their laps. Sure would love to be a fly on the wall over there, right now...

They went the 3 core route because when they asked people what was star wars to them they got 3 answers. And they saw how things went in every other iteration of the game. you would get a core that did not have much depth in any area. And then had a bunch of sourcebook trying to fill in that depth. They decided to try a different model. And that model seems to be working pretty well from what I have seen.

There is nothing I am seeing in the upcoming movie that would lead me to believe that a core book could encapsulate it. It will, in all likelihood, cover just as much ground as the original trilogy. So unless FFG plans on releasing another three core books, I doubt we will see a new core book. Beginners box, yes, which then directs people to a core book which captures their particular interest. Supplement, maybe, but then it begs the question of which line. They could always do a supplement for each line. Or we may see aspects of the new movies drawn on in future supplements for the current lines. New species, equipment and other things in future career, region, and adventure books. I am beginning to think the latter is more likely.

Well, seeing as some of the Alpha testers for FaD couldn't keep their mouths shut and even leaked the **** alpha copy....

All while I was staying as far away from the forums as I could so I didn't open my big mouth. >.>

I think we are losing a bit of perspective here.

- This thread is just a discussion on what people are expecting to see.

- The fact is that there are people that think a new core is likely, there are people that think it isn't.

- There are people that think a source book will be sufficient, there are people that think it won't be.

- The fact that there are 7 plus pages (paraphrasing one of the earlier posters) does not mean many are opposed to either.

- It means there are a vocal few posting walls of tekst to try to convince the other unconvincable party.

- Words like "angerering", "unfair", "alienate" etc. are not indicative of the general opinion, so eventhough some/a lot might consider a new core unnecessary there are only two or three people using such terms.

- People advocating or expecting a new core know as little about the plans of FFg as the people opposing it.

- People on both sides are taking hypothetical situations way too serious.

Agreed, Dante.

LethalDose and Kael really need to relax. Like many of us have already mentioned, we don't really care what happens.

But... From a business perspective? If FFG hopes to lure in more customers - as opposed to catering to its small existent fan base - it will need to release a new line for the new films. The End.

But... From a business perspective? If FFG hopes to lure in more customers - as opposed to catering to its small existent fan base - it will need to release a new line for the new films. The End.

FFG can lure in more customers by continuing to grow the existing RPG product lines in a thoughtful manner. There are still plenty of D6 and Saga hold-outs along with newer role-playing gamers who are familiar with the Original Trilogy to convert.

The customer who would only play the RPG because of The Force Awakens is a statistical aberration. You'd be more likely to get more new players by introducing Clone Wars-era stuff and even that would be negligible.

The only for sure thing is that FFG will tap the new movies for information. Now whether that amounts to a new core(s), supplement(s), or just adding that information to future current line products remains to be seen.

The only for sure thing is that FFG will tap the new movies for information. Now whether that amounts to a new core(s), supplement(s), or just adding that information to future current line products remains to be seen.

More or less, this...

The new information needs to be acknowledged and incorporated.

That does not necessarily include or exclude a Ep7-specific core book or similar.

Two options... and if somebody suggested these and I missed it, I apologize...

OK, so... The game is now in three basic parts: EotE, AoR and F&D.

These maintain rough analogies to both the OT and it's three leads and (more or less, your mileage may vary) breaks up "Star Wars" into three easily manageable parts.

Now, that format could be expanded upon outside of the OT in a few ways, two of which I will discuss, here...

Option I: A New Corebook

Rather than do straight-up prequel or new trilogy corebooks, FFG could publish corebooks that cover the new aspects that these bring to the "Star Wars" family.

This forum has shown that there are fans eager for deeper looks and politics, intrigue, at the rise and fall of star-spanning powers. Perhaps a corebook about a galaxy at a true war. Not merely plucky rebels against an evil empire but the grayer areas where both sides make good points and regrettable compromises as well as the moral quandries of (questionably) enlightened monks cast as generals over slave armies.
We don't yet know what "The Force Awakens" will bring, but it could very possibly give us something just as vitally new and worthy of separate exploration

Option II: The Expansion Strikes Back.
To my mind, however, new corebooks are not the way to go... exactly.
I think new themes and deeper explorations of the current themes deserve their own attention. "The Clone Wars" could be an AoR expansion that takes the military themes already there and presents the aspects of galactic war and moral questioning I mentioned in Option 1. Or, I suppose, it could be a sort of AoR/F&D hybrid expansion, putting soldiers and Jedi side-by-side and discussing the unique challenges, therein.

When we know more of what "The Force Awakens" holds, we can discuss what it might bring to the table.

You pretty much just re-posted the content of the 9 pages of this thread, just without the vitriol or the condescension of "only your view makes sense."

Two options... and if somebody suggested these and I missed it, I apologize...

OK, so... The game is now in three basic parts: EotE, AoR and F&D.

These maintain rough analogies to both the OT and it's three leads and (more or less, your mileage may vary) breaks up "Star Wars" into three easily manageable parts.

Now, that format could be expanded upon outside of the OT in a few ways, two of which I will discuss, here...

Option I: A New Corebook

Rather than do straight-up prequel or new trilogy corebooks, FFG could publish corebooks that cover the new aspects that these bring to the "Star Wars" family.

This forum has shown that there are fans eager for deeper looks and politics, intrigue, at the rise and fall of star-spanning powers. Perhaps a corebook about a galaxy at a true war. Not merely plucky rebels against an evil empire but the grayer areas where both sides make good points and regrettable compromises as well as the moral quandries of (questionably) enlightened monks cast as generals over slave armies.
We don't yet know what "The Force Awakens" will bring, but it could very possibly give us something just as vitally new and worthy of separate exploration

Option II: The Expansion Strikes Back.
To my mind, however, new corebooks are not the way to go... exactly.
I think new themes and deeper explorations of the current themes deserve their own attention. "The Clone Wars" could be an AoR expansion that takes the military themes already there and presents the aspects of galactic war and moral questioning I mentioned in Option 1. Or, I suppose, it could be a sort of AoR/F&D hybrid expansion, putting soldiers and Jedi side-by-side and discussing the unique challenges, therein.

When we know more of what "The Force Awakens" holds, we can discuss what it might bring to the table.

But in the second part you've hit on something that had crossed my mind and didn't want to bring up, specifically where you mention a Clone Wars supplement for AoR.

But since it's half-way out there...

It's conceivable FFG could create a TFA supplement for each of the three major lines. I Personally think this would suck, since getting all 3 at $20 each would be as expensive as a new core. At $15 a piece, it would be more palatable, but based on FFG's pricing for Star Wars, I think it's unlikely we'd see it that low.

We should also consider how much content there will actually be at the time of writing. If they go with either a separate core or a per-game approach, the books are going to be less about new fluff and more about new X-Wings that have +2 Handling rather than +1.

We should also consider how much content there will actually be at the time of writing. If they go with either a separate core or a per-game approach, the books are going to be less about new fluff and more about new X-Wings that have +2 Handling rather than +1.

That's a good point. How much different is a T-70 going to be game wise from the T-65 we already have that would justify a whole new statblock? Or the new TIE over the old one? I can see substantially new vehicles like Rey's speeder or the new Star Destroyer, but there would probably have to be some pretty radical new weapons/systems introduced for the difference to be worth more than a rename and a short note telling you to change a number around. Species I can see, worlds I can see (but does anybody actually care about the lovingly listed world stats and use them?), some history, some new fangled vehicles and weapons, but what else?

It might have already been brought up, but WEG, WotC and FFG all had/have the benefit of having at least one fully completed movie trilogy, so they built off of what's there and any potential new players could easily familiaize themselves with the bare essentials before jumping in. Sequel stuff will have to be released until after all three movies come out, or run the risk of spoiling the unreleased material, making a bunch of stuff up that promptly gets kicked aside as soon as the next film arrives, or have such a minimal amount of content, so why bother?

It might be that, for awhile, anything FFG does with the Sequels will be with their other Star Wars games, as they already have with X-Wing. Miniatures and models in themselves don't spoil anything, and they can pad it a little with carefully filtered story content, but not run the risk of spoiling anybody or being wrong when new stuff comes out.

It might have already been brought up, but WEG, WotC and FFG all had/have the benefit of having at least one fully completed movie trilogy, so they built off of what's there and any potential new players could easily familiaize themselves with the bare essentials before jumping in. Sequel stuff will have to be released until after all three movies come out, or run the risk of spoiling the unreleased material, making a bunch of stuff up that promptly gets kicked aside as soon as the next film arrives, or have such a minimal amount of content, so why bother?

Well, WotC was releasing stuff in-between movies. Their first SW edition was out in 2000 (or 2001) after Ep I and before Ep II, and they were releasing relatively contemporary material during the entire time. Same thing with the Revised version which came out prior to Ep III. They just restricted the new material to relatively safe information (e.g. stuff that was taking place during or immediately following the latest movie).

Now, they *also* knew what happened in Ep IV, so there was some extrapolation that could occur. We don't have anything like that for EP VII - IX.

One wonders if FFG would have gone the three-game, era-specific route had they known there was going to be a new trilogy falling into their laps. Sure would love to be a fly on the wall over there, right now...

They went the 3 core route because when they asked people what was star wars to them they got 3 answers. And they saw how things went in every other iteration of the game. you would get a core that did not have much depth in any area. And then had a bunch of sourcebook trying to fill in that depth. They decided to try a different model. And that model seems to be working pretty well from what I have seen.

Yeah, I know why they did it the way that they did. What I was saying was that they may not have if they'd known a new trilogy was coming. Now they face the conundrum of how to brand any upcoming ST material (e.g. Edge of the Empire? What Empire? Ditto Age of Rebellion...)

One wonders if FFG would have gone the three-game, era-specific route had they known there was going to be a new trilogy falling into their laps. Sure would love to be a fly on the wall over there, right now...

They went the 3 core route because when they asked people what was star wars to them they got 3 answers. And they saw how things went in every other iteration of the game. you would get a core that did not have much depth in any area. And then had a bunch of sourcebook trying to fill in that depth. They decided to try a different model. And that model seems to be working pretty well from what I have seen.

Yeah, I know why they did it the way that they did. What I was saying was that they may not have if they'd known a new trilogy was coming. Now they face the conundrum of how to brand any upcoming ST material (e.g. Edge of the Empire? What Empire? Ditto Age of Rebellion...)

Eh, I'm not sure the branding is that much of an issue, so long as it's clear what the lines represent. And, as pointed out above, I doubt there will much of anything presented in TFA that can't be represented well from those three lines because it's Star Wars, and they really seem to be hitting the "Yes, this is your father's Star Wars" instead of the prequel shenanigans we got from Ep I - III.

I think TFA will be a great point to start a new "Core agnostic" line. Call it Star Wars "Universe" or something and on the back cover point out that the material is compatible and suitable for use with any of the cores.

I think TFA will be a great point to start a new "Core agnostic" line. Call it Star Wars "Universe" or something and on the back cover point out that the material is compatible and suitable for use with any of the cores.

That's my thought, as well. Plain ol' 'Star Wars Roleplaying', like the dice and the cards.

Yeah, I know why they did it the way that they did. What I was saying was that they may not have if they'd known a new trilogy was coming. Now they face the conundrum of how to brand any upcoming ST material (e.g. Edge of the Empire? What Empire? Ditto Age of Rebellion...)

It may be a non-issue.

Even as the "Star Wars" universe expands (and then re-expands) it is the original trilogy that forms enough of a core to unite most casual and harder fans. With that in mind, building off those concepts and familiar notions isn't all that bad of an idea.

Agreed, Dante.

LethalDose and Kael really need to relax. Like many of us have already mentioned, we don't really care what happens.

But... From a business perspective? If FFG hopes to lure in more customers - as opposed to catering to its small existent fan base - it will need to release a new line for the new films. The End.

I am relaxed. Just because I'm sure of my points and debate them strongly doesn't mean I'm not relaxed.

But... From a business perspective? If FFG hopes to lure in more customers - as opposed to catering to its small existent fan base - it will need to release a new line for the new films. The End.

LOL

The End.