I'll say it a bit differently:

The numbers have been run, and the T-70 is slightly less efficient as a pure jouster than the T-65. Assuming the new tricks don't add up to a whole new role for the X-Wing, it's overcosted.

So that's how I "know". You're 100% correct that- on the tabletop the T-70 may simply perform radically differently than the T-65. It may be an arc dodging beast. But I'm not convinced it will be.

I'm afraid it's a point too expensive, but I hope it's right on the money. I suspect we don't actually disagree very much.

ah, a classic case of the "should have been" 23 pointer

at least the blacksun enforcer won't be lonely

The only possible alternative is a ruling that both players have to use the same deck type - with a preference towards the newer.

But since now the newer can be gained without the older, that doesn't really work, as it leads to the probable outcome of someone having only the newer with them, and someone only having the older with them.

Of course there is power creep and it's completely justifiable because FFG has bills to pay. It's not like they're a not-for-profit company that just creates stuff for fun and prays that people like the models enough to buy them. Incentivizing sales through power creep is necessary for the company's survival, keeps players hyped about upcoming releases, and keeps the money flowing. There's a reason C3PO was in the Tantive and that ATC is in the Raider.

Where FFG succeeds and others (*ahem* GW) have failed is that the power creep (in the form of semi-universal upgrades) tends to buff previous product releases as well as new releases instead of being exclusive to new releases only (see TLT).

But back to the topic, don't the upgrade values lightly suggest that the TIE/FO is better value than the TIE/ln (assuming their dials are similar, which they should be)?

+1 shield (4 pts)

+ target lock action (2 pts)

The durability increase for a price makes sense, but the "free" target lock ability is just icing on the cake.

no they do not

that is because shield/hull upgrades are so hilariously overcosted so as not to be auto-include

TL was already covered prior (exceptionally situational action) as was TC (piece of crap, worse than useless on a lot of ships, only really seen on royal guard tie interceptors)

the FO does not represent a increase or even same jousting value as the Ln

in exchange, it's got dat dial and a slightly more flexible action bar

By the OP's logic, the TIE Intercepter in wave 2 rendered the TIE/ln obsolete.

I could see the Low pilot skilled T-70's see more table time than the T-65's, but the named T-70's pilot so far have not come close to matching the named T-65 pilots and their abilities.

I could see the Low pilot skilled T-70's see more table time than the T-65's, but the named T-70's pilot so far have not come close to matching the named T-65 pilots and their abilities.

they don't have to

they have thrusters

also boost

and 3 forward green + t-roll

and another shield

etc.

The only possible alternative is a ruling that both players have to use the same deck type - with a preference towards the newer.

But since now the newer can be gained without the older, that doesn't really work, as it leads to the probable outcome of someone having only the newer with them, and someone only having the older with them.

Exactly!

While we don't know what the outcome will be, I'm guessing (going off of FFG's track record with this game) that you will be able to choose which damage deck you wish to use under similar wording found in the new Play Reference guide. (You should use the new deck, but can use the old.)

So where is everyone getting the dial for the T-70 and BB-8 info? Maybe I'm missing something but I didn't see them in the article released today.

Either way, the T-70 design has really grown on me since it was first released and I think its my favorite looking starfighter in the franchise. I'll be playing those bad boys just so win or lose I know my boys brought their A-game.

I don't see how the TIE-FO is better than the Academy pilot. It is not like you can take 8 of them.

Now as for the T-70 yeah it beats the T-65 out of the water and not for many points. Now compared to the E-wing the T-70 is just a better ship for less points. I'm sure the TIE defender will find a similar replacement soon.

​too offensive to show

So where is everyone getting the dial for the T-70 and BB-8 info? Maybe I'm missing something but I didn't see them in the article released today.

Either way, the T-70 design has really grown on me since it was first released and I think its my favorite looking starfighter in the franchise. I'll be playing those bad boys just so win or lose I know my boys brought their A-game.

Leaked awhile ago. Also, some of us just bought it.

The only possible alternative is a ruling that both players have to use the same deck type - with a preference towards the newer.

But since now the newer can be gained without the older, that doesn't really work, as it leads to the probable outcome of someone having only the newer with them, and someone only having the older with them.

Exactly!

While we don't know what the outcome will be, I'm guessing (going off of FFG's track record with this game) that you will be able to choose which damage deck you wish to use under similar wording found in the new Play Reference guide. (You should use the new deck, but can use the old.)

I don't see being able to choose your deck as being reasonable. The new one will have to supersede the old one.

My guess is that Worlds 2015 will use the old deck with next season transitioning to the new one.

So where is everyone getting the dial for the T-70 and BB-8 info? Maybe I'm missing something but I didn't see them in the article released today.

Either way, the T-70 design has really grown on me since it was first released and I think its my favorite looking starfighter in the franchise. I'll be playing those bad boys just so win or lose I know my boys brought their A-game.

Leaked awhile ago. Also, some of us just bought it.

Thanks Sith! Appreciate the assist

So where is everyone getting the dial for the T-70 and BB-8 info? Maybe I'm missing something but I didn't see them in the article released today.

Other sites have it, e.g. Belloflostsouls.

The dials actually are interesting, so much cool moves you can do. Really enhances the dogfighting aspect.

However: All the power creep discussion in this thread revolves about players already in the game, and how the new ships relate to the old. Turn that perspective around:

New players, not knowing X-wing, which have bought the new core, will play for a while with it, and a number of them might get caught in this connor net of money-trap . And discover that one needs MOAR ships. For variety (and for having iconic ships) they then might buy some of the older ships, and maybe be quite disappointed discovering them to be boring as they have a lot less maneuvering options than the shiny new core stuff.

WHat do you think?

I could see the Low pilot skilled T-70's see more table time than the T-65's, but the named T-70's pilot so far have not come close to matching the named T-65 pilots and their abilities.

they don't have to

they have thrusters

also boost

and 3 forward green + t-roll

and another shield

etc.

That's true, they got more utilities. The abilities of the T-65 will still have a place in my lists. The T-70 will have the same difficulties as the X-wing, They can just deal with them better. Some the the combos you can pull of with the named T-65 pilots are hilarious. From MY hobbie Stress build to my Jek PTL build. BB-8 Will make me want to fly my Wedge the Hunter build again as well.

It is sad that the T-65 is on it's way out, but I use it a lot still and it still works, Just makes you rely on manoeuvring a lot more, which is why I play this game. I'm just waiting for that title that makes the T-65 Viable in builds again.

Ah no worries

The t-65 was punted out the door when the bwing hit, even if it took a while to realize

If you can still make them work, the t70 changes literally nothing

I'll say it a bit differently:

The numbers have been run, and the T-70 is slightly less efficient as a pure jouster than the T-65. Assuming the new tricks don't add up to a whole new role for the X-Wing, it's overcosted.

So that's how I "know". You're 100% correct that- on the tabletop the T-70 may simply perform radically differently than the T-65. It may be an arc dodging beast. But I'm not convinced it will be.

TL;DR - the T-70 doesn't need to have "a whole new role" to be worth its points, it just needs to use its new tricks to their best advantage to prop up its current role.

Nothing will upsurt the X-wings place in Epic.

Its just really good in numbers of 5 or more.

If there is no "Fix" for the old x wing then yes there is a bit of power creep but the new ships do cost more. Still a bit of power creep.

With no changes the old x wings will about as much playtime as they are now in tournaments or less. Which means pretty much none to very little.

I am pretty sure there is a "fix" coming though as hinted by the designers. Hopefully it is about to be revealed in one of the missing product SKUs.

So are we seeing the first true signs of powercreep? Version 2.0 effectively invalidates the t-65 and TIE/LN. Is there any reason to use the old ships? Will all our purchases eventually meet the same '2.0' fate?

Everyone seems to think that unless a ship is teetering over the line on overcosted it's power creep. Power Creep is when the new ships are better than almost everything that came before.

T-70 versus T-65

The T-65 was a ship designed for the needs of Wave 1. It was pretty much replaced in Wave 3 by the B-wing. The T-70 is balanced to the balanced ships (read: most of them): the TIE fighter, the B-wing, the K fighter, et cetera. Is the T-70 more than 3 points better than the Rookiee X-wing? Yes. Is it 3 points worse than the basic E-wing? No.

But Rookie Pilot and Knave Squadron Pilot are almost never used. They're desperately lagging behind. The T-70 is balanced to most of the game rather than being balanced to two ships that just aren't worth their cost now. Yeah, it's better than the T-65 X-wing. So is pretty much everything else but the Scyk and E-wing.

TIE fighter versus TIE/fo

Does the A-wing render the Z-95 obsolete?

The TIE/fo is an Imperial A-wing. The TIE/ln (TIE fighter) is the benchmark for every ship in the game. The TIE/fo has a better dial, Target Lock (but no ordnance slots), a shield and a three point cost increase. At this low points, that's huge. That's a 25% markup. The basic TIE/fo is competing with Night Beast, the +2 PS one with Dark Curse and Backstabber.

The TIE/fo has a role to play as filler (and Epsilon Leader in swarms) but at 15 points it'll never truly compete with the swarmer.

The Tie Advanced Prototype is the Imperial A-wing!

In the lore - newer X-wings replace older X-wings. From a pure stat-point of view - the T-70 has a better dial, action bar, upgrade bar, and higher shield value.

It also costs more. Now - if we're looking at the cost efficiency of the two - I'd say the efficiency of the T-70 is higher per point than the T-65. Yes. Now compare the T-70 to a B-wing, and is that choice so clear? Maybe not.

The developers have said that they feel the T-65 could use a little help. They'll probably through love it's way when they can. Is this the X-wing boost? Probably not. Sure we get new mileage from the new astromechs that our T-65's can use- BB-8 is pretty good on a rookie X-wing.


If you ask me - The real Power creep was in wave 2, with the addition of boost, engine upgrade and primary weapon turrets and the large base (when it comes to speed of movement). I bet the developers might approach that a little differently if they were to do it again from the beginning, knowing what they know now. In general, I think the overall level of creep is quite low. This community sometimes makes mountains out of mole-hills , especially when it comes to the viewpoint of a casual player. The T-65 X-wing being overcosted by a point or 2 is really a small thing outside tournament play. And In tournament play, there are viable T-65 builds.

Personally - I take the most solace in the quote from Alex Davy that went along the lines of 'I'd like to see every model in the game a viable choice.'

Tournament T-65s are a rare breed in tournaments as are non corran ewings. Again the x wing is a staple of this game and needs to be more prominent. Even the old one.

I really hope a "fix" comes in the T-70 expansion or a second rebel aces for these both the T-65 x wing and the E-wing.

Followed by the defender, bomber aces for imperial hopefully.

If any ship should be pissed off by the TIE/FO it's a Wave 6 ship, the Scyk.

The poor Tansarii Point Veteran is the same price as the Omega Squad Pilot. The Omega is a point of PS lower but gets an extra hull point and what is in most cases a superior dial. This pattern holds true with the named pilots as well. Things are little better for the cheapest version of the ship because at least the Cartel Spacer is a point lower than the Epsilon Squad Pilot.

If any ship should be pissed off by the TIE/FO it's a Wave 6 ship, the Scyk.

The poor Tansarii Point Veteran is the same price as the Omega Squad Pilot. The Omega is a point of PS lower but gets an extra hull point and what is in most cases a superior dial. This pattern holds true with the named pilots as well. Things are little better for the cheapest version of the ship because at least the Cartel Spacer is a point lower than the Epsilon Squad Pilot.

I haven't found much use of an EPT for the TPV. PTL doesnt work because the Scyks has no green turns unlike Green squadron pilots. IMHO the best scyk build is the Mangler Spacer but at 20 points it is still rather an expensive ship that has been known to disappear in a puff of smoke.

But yeah the point value of all the Episode 7 ships sort of throws off many stat-line to ship point values from previous ships out of the way. At least with the Kihraxz you can argue less shielding for a 1 point discount (hull upgrade is 1 less point than a shield upgrade). As for the T-70 and comparing it to the E-wing or even the TIE Defender how does this not start at 26 or 27 points. The TIE advanced had 1 more green dice and it was beat up by the old T-65.

It is curious, I wonder what Major Juggler would put both the T-70 and the TIE-FO at for jousting values?

I think the TIE\In will still have its place. Really looking forward to trying