The fault of your argument lies in believing the T-65 is the baseline ship for balance. It should be, it isn't.

And, if you consider it against the TIE fighter, it never really has been.

Funny that the baseline for X-Wing The Miniatures Game has always been the TIE-Fighter. Someone kind of screwed up there.

The fault of your argument lies in believing the T-65 is the baseline ship for balance. It should be, it isn't.

And, if you consider it against the TIE fighter, it never really has been.

Funny that the baseline for X-Wing The Miniatures Game has always been the TIE-Fighter. Someone kind of screwed up there.

X-wing and TIE Fighter should be perfectly evenly balanced.

So yeah, but hey. you know what... they can fix it.

But, the bright side is that there will be new films and cartoons about the rebellion era, making the T-65 design commercially interesting for many years to come.

Looking at the TIE Advanced I am convinced they will even do it in an elegant way. They really learned from the poor A-Wing fix that kind of killed the missile slot on it.

Looking at the TIE Advanced I am convinced they will even do it in an elegant way. They really learned from the poor A-Wing fix that kind of killed the missile slot on it.

missiles killed the missile slot

except for procket Jake. The man just makes em sing.

So are we seeing the first true signs of powercreep? Version 2.0 effectively invalidates the t-65 and TIE/LN. Is there any reason to use the old ships? Will all our purchases eventually meet the same '2.0' fate?

Everyone seems to think that unless a ship is teetering over the line on overcosted it's power creep. Power Creep is when the new ships are better than almost everything that came before.

T-70 versus T-65

The T-65 was a ship designed for the needs of Wave 1. It was pretty much replaced in Wave 3 by the B-wing. The T-70 is balanced to the balanced ships (read: most of them): the TIE fighter, the B-wing, the K fighter, et cetera. Is the T-70 more than 3 points better than the Rookiee X-wing? Yes. Is it 3 points worse than the basic E-wing? No.

But Rookie Pilot and Knave Squadron Pilot are almost never used. They're desperately lagging behind. The T-70 is balanced to most of the game rather than being balanced to two ships that just aren't worth their cost now. Yeah, it's better than the T-65 X-wing. So is pretty much everything else but the Scyk and E-wing.

TIE fighter versus TIE/fo

Does the A-wing render the Z-95 obsolete?

The TIE/fo is an Imperial A-wing. The TIE/ln (TIE fighter) is the benchmark for every ship in the game. The TIE/fo has a better dial, Target Lock (but no ordnance slots), a shield and a three point cost increase. At this low points, that's huge. That's a 25% markup. The basic TIE/fo is competing with Night Beast, the +2 PS one with Dark Curse and Backstabber.

The TIE/fo has a role to play as filler (and Epsilon Leader in swarms) but at 15 points it'll never truly compete with the swarmer.

The fault of your argument lies in believing the T-65 is the baseline ship for balance. It should be, it isn't.

And, if you consider it against the TIE fighter, it never really has been.

It was okay in Wave 1 where it was the only 3 dicer going. Wave 2 it got chewed up by the Falcon, Firespray and Interceptor, and Wave 3 the B-wing stole its job. It clung on though, even making it into Paul Heaver's XXBB Worlds list.

Then the TIE phantom killed it stone dead.

Here's my opinion on Power Creep:

Yes there will be some. Why? Because if you don't creep A LITTLE, FFG runs the risk of having another StarViper. A SLIGHT creep means the new ships will be viable and will sell.

Important note about this is that power creep in this game is acceptable, especially when compared to other miniatures games. No power creep in this game has invalidated old ships, and later on, ships that need help have gotten it.

I trust FFG. They're doing a **** good job with the game and I love it.

Also, don't get power creep mixed up with new stuff. Just because a ship has a new action/ability doesn't mean it's more powerful than old ships that don't have that new stuff...

You'll never please everybody.

option a) no powercreep. new ships come out that are exactly the same as existing ships. everybody cries "the game is dying" because all you get is new models with no new abilities.

option b) a small creep. new ships come out that are just slightly better than existing ships. everybody cries "power creep" and "cash grab" but probably buys the new ships anyways.

the Scyk isn't "a lack of powercreep," it's a step backwards

lack of powercreep is more of the Starviper, still overpriced generics but nowhere near as bad as the E-wing, with two very viable but not overwhelmingly powerful aces

If it is not indeed powercreep, then what it tells me is that since adding 1 shield and Engine Upgrade makes a T65 so much more expensive than a T70, that these are not necessarily good upgrades to put on the T65 in the first place. If you want to do that, use the T70 - it's cheaper.

The question is now you have a cheaper ship that has other upgrade slots available so you can build an even better ship for the same cost of what it took to make a T65 even look like a T70. I might be missing something here, but I know there's something to learn from this.

What you should learn from this is that the T-65 is underpowered at the moment, and has been ever since the B-Wing showed up to do everything the X-Wing can do better than the X-Wing. For one point more, you could have barrel rolls, a better dial, a lot more health, and the option to equip cannons and systems. X-Wings had better pilot abilities but that was never enough to outweigh the sheer superiority of the B-Wing.

The T-70 is balanced in comparison to the B-Wing, or at least appears to be. Expecting the T-70 to be balanced compared to the T-65 is effectively saying you don't want the T-70 to be worth using.

I'm going to disagree with the consensus here (because it's fun!) and answer yes, the t-70 represents power creep. The x-wing started off under-powered though, so comparing the two is a bit of a red herring.

So to my mind, the real question here is whether a shield upgrade, a boost action (+amazing AT upgrade viability), a new upgrade slot and a funky new maneuver for +3 points represent a well-weighted compensation or an over-reaction that will change the game up a bit.

I propose the following as a baseline comparison: B-wing to T-70. In most discussions of the T-65 it was pointed out that the B-wing in effect made the X-wing redundant, asied from certain pilots skills for certain builds. Okay, well, let's run with that. It's especially pertinent as the B-wing is widely regarded as one of the most point-efficient ships in the game (With the Tie/F just sneaking it?).

Therefore, if the T-70 appears markedly more powerful than the B-wing we may have a legitimate case of powercreep. So here's a very basic comparison of the two ships' virtues

Defense: 3/5, 1 green dice vs 3/3 2 green dice

= Clear win for the T-70, even before you factor in the possibility of an AT upgrade in a game dominated by turrets.

Offense: 3 red vs 3 red

= Tie

Upgrades: Cannon, crew, etc surely wins it for the B!

Dial = Clear win for the T-70

1vs1 = A basic T-70 would most likely wreck a B-wing

Swarmability = bbbbz just pips tttt

On aggregate, then, is the T-70 justifiably 2 points more expensive? Undoubtedly so - It's far more tanky, far more maneuverable, and far more resistant to turrets. I would argue, therefore, that the T-70 takes the points efficiency crown. It's clearly undercosted by a point or so, in comparison to one of the most generously costed ships in the game.

Finally, while you might not see this as a big thing in competition format, scaling up to epic brings the dismal prospect of the tttttttttttt build. 72 health, 36 red die, 24 green, and 12 points for upgrades. Or even transport+ttttttttttt. Nasty.

My conclusion: Powercreep is real, but let's be honest, it's more of a powerdawdle! I'm happy to be proved wrong though, by people with a greater grasp of x-mechanics than I

Tl;dr- The T-70 represents a similar or greater step up from the B-wing's improvement over the T-65. It thus represents a very minor but undeniable form of power'creep'.

Ok. Lots of silly one word answers with no actual reason why the OP shouldn't feel that the folk who bought their T65s shouldn't feel short changed. At the moment (with the lack of info on what's coming down the pipe) I think it's Ok to feel a little down about it. I think a good fix would be to release an "upgrade kit" (perhaps with the standalone T70) containing the new damage deck, decals for the movement sticks (the handbrake turn move) and sets of T65 upgrade cards (perhaps 4 Title cards, dropping their cost by a point (not sure about this TBH...) and adding the new icon; also 4 mod cards allowing them to do the handbrake turn). This would prove that FFG don't have the "scr*w the folk who helped make this a success in the first place" mentality that some folk think they might have.

and thematically wouldnt it make sense that an improved x-wing made some 30+ years after the T-65, would be better? same goes for the TIE/FO.

Tl;dr- The T-70 represents a similar or greater step up from the B-wing's improvement over the T-65. It thus represents a very minor but undeniable form of power'creep'.

it really doesn't, though

the X-wing (vanilla) and B-wing represent cost-efficient jousters (with the B-wing far exceeding the X-wing in that capacity)

at 24 points, the t-70 generic does not have the cost efficiency to match them in this role. Juggler had suggested that the addition of 1 more hull would have made the rookie pilot a viable jouster (according to jousting value) at its current 21 point asking price. The T-70 has that health total, but at 3 more points.

having boost is great and all, but in its role as a straight jouster that boost is worthless.

Taking on thrusters takes the T-70 generic up to 26, 4 points over the B-wing. How this affects jousting I'm not sure, but considering it'd only proc at range 3 my guess is "not by a lot." Better against turrets? Sure. But there are other ship types (thank the force), which immediately discounts any hope that the T-70 is strictly "better" just by having access to that upgrade

in short, the T-70 is a shite jouster. It's really more of a high performance ship that'll serve a completely different purpose than the slow but efficient B-wing (and the sadly underpowered X-wing)

said different, the T-70 and B-wing are completely different ships fulfilling completely different roles and they will never be in direct competition with one another. The B-wing is simply a more efficient dice-flinger, the T-70 is simply far more maneuverable (though roll might contest that point, the new dial and boost action are certainly points in the T-70's favor)

lack of powercreep is more of the Starviper, still overpriced generics but nowhere near as bad as the E-wing, with two very viable but not overwhelmingly powerful aces

We had some good times together, buddy. Me throwing you in people's faces and cackling like a loony. You pushing Biryani Pirates in the way of blaster fire. Remember that time we killed Chirpy in two rounds of shooting? Good times. Good times.

and thematically wouldnt it make sense that an improved x-wing made some 30+ years after the T-65, would be better? same goes for the TIE/FO.

This isn't the type of power creep we're talking about. You're referring to a better ship that would cost an adequate amount of points that are more than the cost of the t-65.

OP is talking about the new stuff being better than it should for how many squadpoints it costs.

Therefore, if the T-70 appears markedly more powerful than the B-wing we may have a legitimate case of powercreep. So here's a very basic comparison of the two ships' virtues

Defense: 3/5, 1 green dice vs 3/3 2 green dice

= Clear win for the T-70, even before you factor in the possibility of an AT upgrade in a game dominated by turrets.

Setting aside the AT (because it has its own price), this is even or a slight edge for the B-wing. The two ships have about the same amount of survivability assuming average rolls, but the B-wing's "death clock" is more predictable and reliable.

1vs1 = A basic T-70 would most likely wreck a B-wing

Why? As noted, their attack and average durability are pretty similar, so it's going to come down to a maneuvering game. And there the new Tallon Roll is nice, and it helps make the T-70 a lot more unpredictable in a joust, but the B-wing has much better in-close maneuverability. It's going to be a struggle for ground: the B-wing wants to stay close, while the T-70 needs to create distance. The newer fighter probably has the tools (especially with boost) to control its distance, but that takes skill and forethought--and if it moves first, the B-wing's information advantage negates a lot of that extra maneuverability.

lack of powercreep is more of the Starviper, still overpriced generics but nowhere near as bad as the E-wing, with two very viable but not overwhelmingly powerful aces

/Pours one out for Prince Xizor now TLTs are about to become A Thing.

We had some good times together, buddy. Me throwing you in people's faces and cackling like a loony. You pushing Biryani Pirates in the way of blaster fire. Remember that time we killed Chirpy in two rounds of shooting? Good times. Good times.

Xizor has thrusters and boost, so I certainly wouldn't even come close to despair yet

also, his z-95 goons? turns out they're really classy about breaking the knee caps off of low agility ships

I'm shocked that anyone can look at the price of the T-70 and think it's _over_ powered. My first reaction on seeing it's point cost was that it seems like it's _even less efficient_ than the T-65. Not by much, but by enough.

Maybe it has a better enough dial than the T-65 to break out of the Jouster role and can become an arc dodger. Maybe they know the costing is bad, and so there's an X-Wing fix for both ships that's already in the mystery blister.

Or maybe FFG messed up again.

Power creep? Please. This is a power moonwalk.

The Tie/LN at 12 pts base is still very hard to beat. These new guys are a little too expensive to fly as full swarms but might be pretty good as mini swarms of 3-4 ships.

I don't even know about that

for the Tie/FO I'm worried about reverse creep

I see close to no reason to take the generic pilots. Sure, you're getting a super health upgrade, but at a 3 point premium for the same offense that's simply not enough bang for your buck.

the named pilots and the tech upgrade (so far underwhelming, but there's only one card for it atm) will be the only ways through which the FO can surpass the Tie/Ln.

the dial is sexy too, but lest we forget the Tie/ln's dial is also incredibly sexy for a ship of its class (i.e "fodder")

so far, for me, it's just the awesome ultra-wingman and the troll 2"-roll that'll see any play until proven otherwise

and this coming from a guy who loves A-wings

I agree with all of this. I don't really see a reason to fly any of the FO TIEs. For the cost of four TIE/FO fighters, I could have five Academies. The Academies would have one fewer hit point, two extra red dice, and give your opponent one more ship to kill. I've never thought to myself, "Boy, I wish my TIE could target lock someone" or "I wish I could clear stress with a hard-2 instead of a 2-bank." And at 15 points, I'd go for Dark Curse over a PS1 First Order ship any day.

1vs1 = A basic T-70 would most likely wreck a B-wing

Why? As noted, their attack and average durability are pretty similar, so it's going to come down to a maneuvering game. And there the new Tallon Roll is nice, and it helps make the T-70 a lot more unpredictable in a joust, but the B-wing has much better in-close maneuverability. It's going to be a struggle for ground: the B-wing wants to stay close, while the T-70 needs to create distance. The newer fighter probably has the tools (especially with boost) to control its distance, but that takes skill and forethought--and if it moves first, the B-wing's information advantage negates a lot of that extra maneuverability.

The Tie/LN at 12 pts base is still very hard to beat. These new guys are a little too expensive to fly as full swarms but might be pretty good as mini swarms of 3-4 ships.

I don't even know about that

for the Tie/FO I'm worried about reverse creep

I see close to no reason to take the generic pilots. Sure, you're getting a super health upgrade, but at a 3 point premium for the same offense that's simply not enough bang for your buck.

the named pilots and the tech upgrade (so far underwhelming, but there's only one card for it atm) will be the only ways through which the FO can surpass the Tie/Ln.

the dial is sexy too, but lest we forget the Tie/ln's dial is also incredibly sexy for a ship of its class (i.e "fodder")

so far, for me, it's just the awesome ultra-wingman and the troll 2"-roll that'll see any play until proven otherwise

and this coming from a guy who loves A-wings

I agree with all of this. I don't really see a reason to fly any of the FO TIEs. For the cost of four TIE/FO fighters, I could have five Academies. The Academies would have one fewer hit point, two extra red dice, and give your opponent one more ship to kill. I've never thought to myself, "Boy, I wish my TIE could target lock someone" or "I wish I could clear stress with a hard-2 instead of a 2-bank." And at 15 points, I'd go for Dark Curse over a PS1 First Order ship any day.

Well a 2 s-loop, plus a free target lock is a good reason. Plus you get the tech upgrade and in a game dominated by crits 1 shield to save your bacon.

Well a 2 s-loop, plus a free target lock is a good reason. Plus you get the tech upgrade and in a game dominated by crits 1 shield to save your bacon.

The TL doesn't add a whole lot to a PS1 ship with a base attack of two. The crit protection doesn't add a lot either, as you'll still likely take a regular hit on that shield before the crit gets pushed through. Two hits and a Direct Hit are enough to kill an Academy and Epsilon pilot, but a Five Academies squad will still have four ships left compared to the three in an Epsilon list.

Well a 2 s-loop, plus a free target lock is a good reason. Plus you get the tech upgrade and in a game dominated by crits 1 shield to save your bacon.

The TL doesn't add a whole lot to a PS1 ship with a base attack of two. The crit protection doesn't add a lot either, as you'll still likely take a regular hit on that shield before the crit gets pushed through. Two hits and a Direct Hit are enough to kill an Academy and Epsilon pilot, but a Five Academies squad will still have four ships left compared to the three in an Epsilon list.

as above

the TL isn't "free" since it costs an action and is easily the most situational action in the game. You basically only take it if you're setting up for next turn (ie not getting a shot this turn) or if you have PTL (costs points)

now low PS especially, where you can't guarantee that the enemy will be in arc, it is worth very little

it is a free targeting computer, but targeting computer is basically worthless on everyone except royal guard tie interceptors