Hey guys,

Last night we had the situation where the overlord had no surges on the dice and wanted to play "Dark Might" (add a surge after rolling dice for the attack). However, the defender had "Shadow Bracers" equiped (exhaust this card during an attack that targets you, after dice are rolled. Cancel 1 surge.)

Obviously we got into discussion on the timing of this all, since this reads as simultaneous actions but logically one would only play shadow bracers when there's already a surge (dark might) on the table.

The golden rule on active player deciding the sequence came to mind, but when going through forums I found below - indicating that the golden rule would not apply. However, it's not saying what then would be the right way to handle this.

Is it that if one player declares to add anything to the attack after dice are rolled, that the other player has the option to also add anything to the attack after dice are rolled, but in reaction to the first?

Thanks for your thoughts!

Question posed to FFG wrote:

It occurs to me that the "Golden Rule" regarding Timing in D2E is not quite clear.
I am referring to this sentence: "Timing conflicts may arise when two or more players wish to use an ability with the same triggering condition. In these situations, the current player (the player who is currently taking his turn) decides the order in which the abilities are resolved."

I would like to ask you kindly to clarify what this sentence refers to:
A) The Situation, when two players (e.g. the OL and a hero) BOTH WANT to play a card / activate an ability.
B) The Situation, when one player WANTS to play something and the other DOES NOT YET. E.g. the OL wants to play a card after combat dice roll, but would rather like the other player to declare whether he uses his heroic feat that has the same trigger condition ("after dice have been rolled") FIRST.

Answer from FFG wrote:

The golden rule that you referenced applies to situation A, not B. When two things are happening because of the same trigger, the active player decides which happens first.

Hope, that helps!

Nathan Hajek
Creative Content Developer
Fantasy Flight Games

We had a situation exactly as you described. In our case we allowed to cancel the surge. I would argue that as long damage is not dealt it is possible to cancel surges netherless the source they came from. I don't remember the name of the card in basic II, but the overlord has a card to force the heroes to spend surges on things he wants. Does this card work retroactively on surges gotten after playing this card like for example by using Mana Weave?

I had a very similar question with FFG, actually
about uncontrolled power and mana weave. Strictly speaking, it is a game of chicken. The hero who is attacking can play Mana Weave, but he risks that the OL will play uncontrolled power. The OL can play uncontrolled power, but the he risks the hero not adding the surge with mana weave. However, whoever has the "reactionary" card has it easier, because there doesn't exist a time window that the hero can play mana weave that the OL cannot respond with uncontrolled power. In your case, if the OL plays dark might, you can always THEN exhaust shadkw bracers. However, exhausting them before he plays dark might has no effect. I'll post the response when I find it.

EDIT: Apparently, I lied- it was Runic Mastery and Uncontrolled Power . Same difference. My understanding of the response includes 2 important points:

1) No matter when the hero plays "Rune Mastery," it will still be spent by the OL if he played "Uncontrolled Power" (though I don't think that applies to the situation with "Shadow Bracers," since if you exhaust them first, there is no surge to cancel.)

2) More importantly (and definitely relevant to the above situation) either player can play his card after the other. That is, if it is still possible for the OL to play "Dark Might," it's still possible for the hero to exhaust "Shadow Bracers." If the attack moves to the "spend surges" step, then NEITHER card can be used.

Nathan,

do you suggest that in situation B, golden rule does not apply and players choose if they play that card. So, if OL plays the card who gives him a surge, THEN hero players exhausts ability that cancels the surge, that would be the right way of playing?

P

To be clear, I am not Nathan, nor do I work for FFG . I was posting a rules question that I asked FFG last year, and the response is from Nathan- I included his signature in the post to show that he was the one that answered.Anyway, regarding your question...

Consider the situation you described. A monster is attacking a hero, and that hero has the "Shadow Bracers." Attack and defense dice get rolled, and the OL has rolled 3 damage and 0 surges, and the hero has rolled 3 shields. The monster performing the attack has "surge:Pierce 1," and the OL has a Dark Might in his hand. There are a few things that could happen:

1) The OL now plays Dark Might to add a surge to the attack results. Since the attack now has a surge, the hero decides to exhaust "Shadow Bracers." This cancels the surge that was just added.

2) The OL now plays Dark Might to add a surge to the attack results. The hero chooses not to exhaust his Shadow Bracers.

3) The OL decides not to play Dark Might, figuring the surge will just get cancelled by the Shadow Bracers anyway, and decides to save it for another hero. (This is probably the smart play for the OL in this case.)

4) The hero exhausts Shadow Bracers because he assumes the OL will be playing Dark Might. The OL chooses not to play Dark Might, since it will do no good and he can attack this hero with another monster.

In short, the hero has no responsibility to say that he is or is not exhausting Shadow Bracers before the OL plays Dark Might, and the OL has no responsibility to say whether or not he is playing Dark Might before the hero exhausts Shadow Bracers. I described it as a game of "chicken." To prevent attacks from taking forever ("well, I'm not going to spend surges until you say whether or not you're exhausting Shadow Bracers..." ....5 minutes later... "...made up your mind yet?") I recommend the active player saying things to the effect of "OK, if you've got nothing to play, I'm going to move onto the spend surges step..." and allow a second or two for any heroes to change their mind. Also, if you're the one with Mana Weave or Dark Might, you're really the one who is holding things up, not the person with the ability that counters it- so don't hold things up.

Why would a hero ever do option 4 lol?

Also, i dont get this:

"The hero reasons that taking a damage is less important than getting "Dark Might" into the discard pile, so he chooses not to exhaust his Shadow Bracers."

When the surge from dark might is cancelled its not returned to the overlords hand right? I mean, whether or not the hero uses his shadow bracers the card goes intothe discard pile?

Yeah, nevermind that one, I wasn't thinking straight. It goes to the discard pile regardless.

Thanks for your responses... looking at Nathan's statement "either player can use their card before the other", I agree that this can best be solved by a brief inquiry before moving to the spend surges step. Guess this topic is a logical consequence from simultaneous rolling of the attack & defense dice