[...] enumerate all of those pairs, and then you choose one. Biggs' ability, in this explanation, removes every friendly ship at Range 1 from each opponent's set of valid weapon-target pairs.

Just being a devil's advocate but isn't 'enumerate all of those [weapon target] pairs' reading something into the rules that isn't there. Again I don't have the rules yet but people say the rules state 1) Choose a weapon 2) Choose a target. It doesn't say make all of your valid combos and choose the right one.

Just asking.

P.S. I agree can someone post the actual text?

How is this debate still going? On the first page, ForgottenLore outlined that you measure range to all targets as part of declaring a target. Then you choose a weapon. If you targeted Biggs, you have to choose a weapon that can hit him because you had to declare him as your target. If you choose a weapon that can't hit Biggs, you'd have to go through the declare target step again and choose a new weapon. If that could hit Biggs, you use that weapon. If not, you go back to declare target again, choose Biggs, and choose another weapon.

Though I'd like to see the actual text as well.

The existing core rules said:

1. Declare Target.

During this step, the ATTACKER (the active ship) must declare its TARGET (the ship he wishes to attack)... Once declared, the target ship is now the DEFENDER, and players proceed to the "Roll Attack Dice" step.

Notably, there is nothing in this section about choosing a weapon, until you get to the "Roll Attack Dice" step, as you are directed.

2. Roll Attack Dice.

[...] Instead of attacking with its primary weapon, the attacker may choose to use a secondary weapon Upgrade card that his ship has equipped.

Clearly, choosing which weapon to fire with didn't even occur until Step 2 of the combat phase. And so it would be clear that Biggs - as explained in the FAQ - must be targeted prior to weapon selection.

If the report on the text of the new rules is correct, choosing a weapon occurs first...

How is this debate still going? On the first page, ForgottenLore outlined that you measure range to all targets as part of declaring a target. Then you choose a weapon. If you targeted Biggs, you have to choose a weapon that can hit him because you had to declare him as your target. If you choose a weapon that can't hit Biggs, you'd have to go through the declare target step again and choose a new weapon. If that could hit Biggs, you use that weapon. If not, you go back to declare target again, choose Biggs, and choose another weapon.

Though I'd like to see the actual text as well.

Umm - that's not what ForgottenLore says at all in OP?

Just being a devil's advocate but isn't 'enumerate all of those [weapon target] pairs' reading something into the rules that isn't there.

Yeah, that's not at all what the rules say, but I'm trying to find the right package to help Talonbane understand.

Will you type the picking weapon and target rules out of photo them please? I'm assuming they look different to how I think they are for you to be saying this.

Here it is:

Declare Target: The attacker may measure range to any number of enemy ships and check which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then the attacker chooses one of his weapons to attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to be the target and pays any costs required for the attack.

• If attacking with a primary weapon, the target must be inside the attacker’s firing arc and at Range 1-3.
• If attacking with a turret primary weapon, the target must be at Range 1-3 but does not need to be inside firing arc.
• If attacking with a secondary weapon, the target must be inside the attacker‘s firing arc (unless otherwise specified) and at the weapon range indicated on the weapon‘s Upgrade card.
• If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay any costs required for the attack, the attacker may choose a different weapon and target.
• After a valid weapon and target are chosen and any necessary costs are paid, the target is considered to be the defender.

Doesn't the FAQ still hold priority over even an updated core rule book? If so:

Biggs Darklighter If the attacker has more than one weapon available, it must use a weapon that can target Biggs Darklighter, if possible, instead of any other ship at Range 1 of Biggs Darklighter.

This solves the issue right there. If you have more than one weapon and the potential exists for Biggs to be a target, you must either show that Biggs is not a valid target under any circumstance or you must choose a weapon that can target Biggs. This doesn't technically contradict the core rules in any way as you still choose your weapon before you choose the target, you are merely forced to choose the weapon that can target Biggs.

As for the upgrades, I think FFG just has to say that if the pretty picture on the card matches the hull outline of your model, you can take the upgrade. Given that they have unique silhouettes of each model, they probably should have used those on the title cards to increase the obviousness from 99.8% to 100%.

Here it is:

Declare Target: The attacker may measure range to any number of enemy ships and check which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then the attacker chooses one of his weapons to attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to be the target and pays any costs required for the attack.

• If attacking with a primary weapon, the target must be inside the attacker’s firing arc and at Range 1-3.
• If attacking with a turret primary weapon, the target must be at Range 1-3 but does not need to be inside firing arc.
• If attacking with a secondary weapon, the target must be inside the attacker‘s firing arc (unless otherwise specified) and at the weapon range indicated on the weapon‘s Upgrade card.
• If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay any costs required for the attack, the attacker may choose a different weapon and target.
• After a valid weapon and target are chosen and any necessary costs are paid, the target is considered to be the defender.

I'm willing to accept that they may keep the FAQ as written and say that Biggs still has to be targeted, but because it explicitly say you choose weapon first and then select valid targets, I'd say RAW it's a change.

(Oh, and thanks for posting the full text! )

Doesn't the FAQ still hold priority over even an updated core rule book? If so:

Biggs Darklighter If the attacker has more than one weapon available, it must use a weapon that can target Biggs Darklighter, if possible, instead of any other ship at Range 1 of Biggs Darklighter.

It depends on whether the Biggs FAQ entry was meant to be a clarification (which I think it is) or an errata (I don't think it needed to be given the original core rules text).

If it continues to exist in its current form, it will override the new rule, not clarify it.

Just being a devil's advocate but isn't 'enumerate all of those [weapon target] pairs' reading something into the rules that isn't there.

Here it is:

Declare Target: The attacker may measure range to any number of enemy ships and check which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then the attacker chooses one of his weapons to attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to be the target and pays any costs required for the attack.

• If attacking with a primary weapon, the target must be inside the attacker’s firing arc and at Range 1-3.
• If attacking with a turret primary weapon, the target must be at Range 1-3 but does not need to be inside firing arc.
• If attacking with a secondary weapon, the target must be inside the attacker‘s firing arc (unless otherwise specified) and at the weapon range indicated on the weapon‘s Upgrade card.
• If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay any costs required for the attack, the attacker may choose a different weapon and target.
• After a valid weapon and target are chosen and any necessary costs are paid, the target is considered to be the defender.

Well I'd tend to agree with you. Since you can measure to ships before you even choose the target or weapon it would seem that Bigg's ability being present limits your options.

However I could also see how one might argue it implies that since "If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon [...] the attacker may choose a different weapon and target." I could deliberately chose a weapon that does not reach Biggs to begin with. This could be deliberately nerfing Biggs bit if you have multiple weapons to chose from. Then there'd be no need to FAQ Biggs in Epic. If he's in your way you have to shoot Biggs but if I have a torpedo to shoot something closer then okay. Would that be a big nerf, little one or simply unintended if that's how it plays out.

I can see it either way.

[Edit] - I didn't see the FAQ. If the FAQ doesn't change then absolutely I'd agree you must target Biggs if possible. EOL

The text on Biggs seems unambiguous to me:

"Other friendly ships at Range 1 cannot be targeted by attacks if the attacker could target you instead."

It is not:

"Other friendly ships at Range 1 cannot be targeted by attacks if the attacker could target you with their chosen weapon instead."

If your target is in range one of Biggs and that you have weapons that are able to target Biggs, your desired target is not a valid target so you need to choose another one. If that other one is also not Biggs keep picking targets until you pick Biggs.

No because you chose a weapon. Biggs isn't a valid target after you've chosen that weapon. So his ability doesn't effect anything.

New rulebook says when a ship is destroyed, all its damage cards are discarded face-up. When damage deck is empty, reshuffle the discards to make a new deck. Is this new and different?

So wait, why wouldn't a "TIE Advance Only" upgrade apply to the TIE Adv. Prototype? What else do we think "Adv." stands for but "Advance"? It only doesn't have the full word because of spacing issues on the card, right?

It doesn't work that way because FFG doesn't want it to work that way.

Just being a devil's advocate but isn't 'enumerate all of those [weapon target] pairs' reading something into the rules that isn't there.

Yeah, that's not at all what the rules say, but I'm trying to find the right package to help Talonbane understand.

Will you type the picking weapon and target rules out of photo them please? I'm assuming they look different to how I think they are for you to be saying this.

Here it is:

Declare Target: The attacker may measure range to any number of enemy ships and check which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then the attacker chooses one of his weapons to attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to be the target and pays any costs required for the attack.

• If attacking with a primary weapon, the target must be inside the attacker’s firing arc and at Range 1-3.
• If attacking with a turret primary weapon, the target must be at Range 1-3 but does not need to be inside firing arc.
• If attacking with a secondary weapon, the target must be inside the attacker‘s firing arc (unless otherwise specified) and at the weapon range indicated on the weapon‘s Upgrade card.
• If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay any costs required for the attack, the attacker may choose a different weapon and target.
• After a valid weapon and target are chosen and any necessary costs are paid, the target is considered to be the defender.

Someone said that Dark Curse isn't immune to deadeye and blaster turret anymore, but that order of operations says that he is still immune. You choose the weapon first, but you don't pay the cost until you declare the target ship.

New rulebook says when a ship is destroyed, all its damage cards are discarded face-up. When damage deck is empty, reshuffle the discards to make a new deck. Is this new and different?

Nope. It's the same in the original rules. The only really new thing I see about destroyed ships is under the Card Abilities section in the Rules Reference. It is clearly stated that when a ship is destroyed it's equipped cards are no longer active unless the card says otherwise or has a clause like "until the end of the Combat Phase".

No because you chose a weapon. Biggs isn't a valid target after you've chosen that weapon. So his ability doesn't effect anything.

Okay, once more through and then I'm done.

(A) Measure range and determine which ships are in your firing arc.

At this point, you have been explicitly instructed to collect the information that determines whether you could attack Biggs and with which weapons. Accordingly, if you could attack him at all, his ability is triggered here.

(B) Choose a weapon.

© Choose a target (from among the valid targets for that weapon).

At this point, if Biggs' ability was triggered, it comes into effect. The effect is that friendly ships within Range 1 of Biggs are not valid targets.

(D) If there are no valid targets, go back to "Choose a weapon."

The only condition required to activate Biggs' ability is "...the attacker could target [biggs]." There's no other requirement--and in particular, there's no requirement that you be able to target Biggs with the weapon you've selected. Biggs' ability is completely independent of your weapon choice. Does your ship have the capacity to attack Biggs this round? If so, his ability counts.

The only change is that there's now an explanation for why that works, and an escape clause that explains how you loop through the algorithm until you've found a legal target.

Here it is:

Declare Target: The attacker may measure range to any number of enemy ships and check which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then the attacker chooses one of his weapons to attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to be the target and pays any costs required for the attack.

• If attacking with a primary weapon, the target must be inside the attacker’s firing arc and at Range 1-3.
• If attacking with a turret primary weapon, the target must be at Range 1-3 but does not need to be inside firing arc.
• If attacking with a secondary weapon, the target must be inside the attacker‘s firing arc (unless otherwise specified) and at the weapon range indicated on the weapon‘s Upgrade card.
• If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay any costs required for the attack, the attacker may choose a different weapon and target.
• After a valid weapon and target are chosen and any necessary costs are paid, the target is considered to be the defender.

Someone said that Dark Curse isn't immune to deadeye and blaster turret anymore, but that order of operations says that he is still immune. You choose the weapon first, but you don't pay the cost until you declare the target ship.

Dark Curse's ability works "when defending", and the piece of information added by the new rules is when exactly in the process a target becomes a defender--at the very end of the step.

Dark Curse's ability works "when defending", and the piece of information added by the new rules is when exactly in the process a target becomes a defender--at the very end of the step.

I kind of liked Dark Curse being immune. It was like he was a force sensitive and messing with people's minds if it took too much concentration.

Just being a devil's advocate but isn't 'enumerate all of those [weapon target] pairs' reading something into the rules that isn't there.

Yeah, that's not at all what the rules say, but I'm trying to find the right package to help Talonbane understand.

Will you type the picking weapon and target rules out of photo them please? I'm assuming they look different to how I think they are for you to be saying this.

Here it is:

Declare Target: The attacker may measure range to any number of enemy ships and check which enemy ships are inside his firing arc. Then the attacker chooses one of his weapons to attack with. Then he chooses one enemy ship to be the target and pays any costs required for the attack.

• If attacking with a primary weapon, the target must be inside the attacker’s firing arc and at Range 1-3.
• If attacking with a turret primary weapon, the target must be at Range 1-3 but does not need to be inside firing arc.
• If attacking with a secondary weapon, the target must be inside the attacker‘s firing arc (unless otherwise specified) and at the weapon range indicated on the weapon‘s Upgrade card.
• If there is no valid target for the chosen weapon, or if the attacker cannot pay any costs required for the attack, the attacker may choose a different weapon and target.
• After a valid weapon and target are chosen and any necessary costs are paid, the target is considered to be the defender.

Someone said that Dark Curse isn't immune to deadeye and blaster turret anymore, but that order of operations says that he is still immune. You choose the weapon first, but you don't pay the cost until you declare the target ship.

He has been declared as the target but until costs are paid he is not yet the defender, so any abilities that are "when defending"wouldn't kick in yet.

Deadeye would still NOT work against Dark Curse would it?

[Edit] - I wasn't very clear

Initiative now works like it does in the tournament rules.

Initiative is now just a single red die rolled by one player. Hit or crit and that player gets to choose. Blank or focus and other player chooses. Last tourney rules I saw said to use a coin. This makes more sense. We have dice people.

The new rules state that a ship does not become the defender until all costs to fire weapons are paid: Dark Curse can now be targeted by effects that require focus tokens (Deadeye and Blaster Turret) as he's not the defender until after those costs are paid.

No because you chose a weapon. Biggs isn't a valid target after you've chosen that weapon. So his ability doesn't effect anything.

Okay, once more through and then I'm done.

(A) Measure range and determine which ships are in your firing arc.

At this point, you have been explicitly instructed to collect the information that determines whether you could attack Biggs and with which weapons. Accordingly, if you could attack him at all, his ability is triggered here.

(B) Choose a weapon.

© Choose a target (from among the valid targets for that weapon).

At this point, if Biggs' ability was triggered, it comes into effect. The effect is that friendly ships within Range 1 of Biggs are not valid targets.

(D) If there are no valid targets, go back to "Choose a weapon."

The only condition required to activate Biggs' ability is "...the attacker could target [biggs]." There's no other requirement--and in particular, there's no requirement that you be able to target Biggs with the weapon you've selected. Biggs' ability is completely independent of your weapon choice. Does your ship have the capacity to attack Biggs this round? If so, his ability counts.

The only change is that there's now an explanation for why that works, and an escape clause that explains how you loop through the algorithm until you've found a legal target.

Again, you're adding words to make it fit your explanation. The rules text you quoted says:

The attacker may measure range to any number of enemy ships and check which enemy ships are inside his firing arc.

Emphasis added. The rule doesn't say must measure range. What if I choose not to measure range at this point? The rule doesn't say "Measure range to determine eligible targets." It says nothing about targeting at this point. You're just measuring ranges and firing lines - if you choose to do so at all.

The next step is:

Then the attacker chooses one of his weapons to attack with.

That seems pretty clear. The next step is:

Then he chooses one enemy ship to be the target and pays any costs required for the attack.

Biggs' text says:

Other friendly ships at Range 1 cannot be targeted by attacks if the attacker could target you instead.

Emphasis added. At step 3 in this process, Biggs cannot be chosen as a target.

I'm fine with saying that if the FAQ entry doesn't change, it will overrule this, or that FFG didn't intend it to be this way, but the plain text of the rules clearly sets out an order of steps that is (1) measure (optional), (2) pick a weapon, (3) declare a target, and in such a case the weapon will dictate the legal targets.

EDIT:

I'm open to the argument that "if the attacker could target you instead" should be interpreted broadly, to be all inclusive of the entire Declare Target process. In which case you should go through the Declare Target process for each ship to see if Biggs could be targeted with a legal weapon.

Currently we're still on the old rules until FFG annouces otherwise: the site links to the OT rulebook. Target's release should be considered a Prerelease like GenCon.

When the FAQ updates to fix Night Beast they'll certainly update Biggs too if he works any differently.

"There is also nothing in the new rulebook that clarifies the issue about dropping a bomb before SLAMing."

The new rules reference has this interesting statement on page 4 under "Activation Phase", fourth bullet-point in the left column:

"When an ability instructs a ship to execute a specific maneuver, it resolves only the "Execute Maneuver" step."

The SLAM card says to "choose and execute a maneuver on the ship's dial." I would say that clarifies it perfectly--you're not revealing a dial, so you're not dropping a bomb.

My apologies to Vorpal for my snark in the other thread on this subject, I stand sit in my wheelchair corrected.