Well guys it finally happened. I signed up for my first small tourney on Sunday. I am hemming and hawing between two builds and having a slow work day. Wondering which list the experts (everyone on this forum!) would dread flying against the most. I've had success in casual games with both of these lists and feel equally comfortable flying either. I threw together a Pros and Cons list for each if you anything to add please do!

Option 1: The Quiet Things You Fear the Most

Whisper (44 total)

Veteran Instincts (1)

FCS (2)

ACD (4)

Gunner (5)

Maarek Steele (32 total)

Push the Limit (3)

TIE X/1 (0)

ATC (1)

TIE Engine MK II (1)

Lt. Colzet (23 total)

TIE X/1 (0)

FCS (0)

Twin Ion Engine MK II (1)

Pros:

-Phantom pushes damage through high agility/tokened targets

-TIE Advances to hit low agility, high hull targets

-Lt. Colzet becomes a larger threat as the game progresses

Cons:

-Only 14 HP total

-Colzet's low damage output

-No Autothrusters, more vulnerable to turrets

-Stress builds hard counter Whisper and Steele

Notes: My red and green dice both tend to be fickle and the phantom + FCS + gunner while not a guarantee (seriously fickle sometimes) helps assuage that. The trade-off of course is having half my list tied to a 4 HP ship with no Autothrusters this list appears to be able to deal with the widest range of threats while simultaneously being the squishiest.

Option 2: Yorr Favorite Sith Lords

Vader (34-35 pts total)

Lone Wolf (2)

TIE X/1 (0)

ATC (1)

Stealth Device (3-4) (Shield/Engine Upgrade?)

Maarek Steele (32 total)

Push the Limit (3)

TIE X/1 (0)

ATC (1)

Twin Ion Engine MK II (1)

Capt. Yorr (32 total)

Emperor Palpatine (8)

Pros:

-4k + PTL in same turn keeps Steele in the fight (thanks to Yorr)

-Emperor Palpatine helps with fickle green dice

-Support ship being focused fired or ignored is acceptable

-Vader and Steele great against low agility ships

-20 HP (Pro relative to option 1)

Cons:

-Relatively low damage output

-Action dependent, weak to blocking

-High Agility ships will be hard to push damage through

-32 pts in a 3 red dice ship that will shoot 1-2 times per game

Notes: For a support ship I don't believe Omni + Palpatine provides enough support. I've fought plenty of lists with this build and flown it myself and the shuttle is too easy to ignore. For 3 extra points Yorr is in my humble opinion a must take. The ability to Round 1: Evade + Target Lock and then Round 2: 4-K + Focus + Evade with no stress on Steele is extremely potent. Charging the shuttle in for the initial joust provides an interesting targeting priority decision for my opponent and while the shuttle will melt quickly with a few rounds of concentrated fire it means Vader and Steele aren't getting shot at. Relying on actions though means it’s hard countered by being blocked. No reroll abilities also means hitting high agility ships with tokens is going to be tough. As a side note I'm not sold on the Stealth Device for Vader and have 4pts to play with suggestions welcome.

Thanks for reading!

With the style of lists I normally fly, I would not want to fly against the first list. Like you stated in the cons, the second list suffers from lower damage output. The LW vader also seems odd, but might work with only 2 other ships. Many times when I am comparing what list to fly, I try to think if it could handle the shields/hp of 4 B-Wings, in one way or the other. Raw stats coming strait at you, shuttles will die a little more quickly, and while vader and stele could take some shots and/or arc dodge, they wouldn't be destroying ships fast enough in many cases...not like the FCS Gunner Whisper you have in the first list anyway.

I disagree that the 2nd list has a significantly lower damage output. Vader and Whisper end up dishing out very similar damage levels, although Whisper might have a slight edge. The shuttle unquestionably deals more damage than Colzet, however will likely not get as many firing opportunities. At the end of the day, I don't think its significantly different.

Durability is definitely higher in the 2nd list, and that will help you against twin laser turrets which will just munch through the first list too quickly for you to win (unless you are really good at the range game).

For that reason I would go with the second list. Oh but if you do use the second list, I would suggest engine upgrade on Vader. Stealth is nice if you are not comfortable with arc-dodging, but engine will help against all kinds of turrets because positioning becomes so important for victory (and lone wolf+ATC+engine = 36 on Vader, btw).

With the style of lists I normally fly, I would not want to fly against the first list. Like you stated in the cons, the second list suffers from lower damage output. The LW vader also seems odd, but might work with only 2 other ships. Many times when I am comparing what list to fly, I try to think if it could handle the shields/hp of 4 B-Wings, in one way or the other. Raw stats coming strait at you, shuttles will die a little more quickly, and while vader and stele could take some shots and/or arc dodge, they wouldn't be destroying ships fast enough in many cases...not like the FCS Gunner Whisper you have in the first list anyway.

The idea with the LW Vader is that he starts off to the side while Yorr and Steele stick together. Using Vader for hit run/bait makes him less dependent on Yorr than Steele and while he is off by himself LW and the Emperor help keep him alive. I don’t expect LW to trigger all the time, but LW Darth Vader is something I hope most people won’t want to see in the endgame and can force interesting target priority decisions on my opponent.

Considering 4 B-Wings is something so simple, yet I didn’t think about it as I haven’t gone up against it with this list and it would absolutely destroy me. It’s hard to do anything but joust with the shuttle without an engine upgrade and it would melt pretty fast with 4 B’s shooting at it. That’s a very scary match up. Thanks for the input, it’s exactly the kind of thing I was looking for.

I disagree that the 2nd list has a significantly lower damage output. Vader and Whisper end up dishing out very similar damage levels, although Whisper might have a slight edge. The shuttle unquestionably deals more damage than Colzet, however will likely not get as many firing opportunities. At the end of the day, I don't think its significantly different.

Durability is definitely higher in the 2nd list, and that will help you against twin laser turrets which will just munch through the first list too quickly for you to win (unless you are really good at the range game).

For that reason I would go with the second list. Oh but if you do use the second list, I would suggest engine upgrade on Vader. Stealth is nice if you are not comfortable with arc-dodging, but engine will help against all kinds of turrets because positioning becomes so important for victory (and lone wolf+ATC+engine = 36 on Vader, btw).

With the second list I’m slightly afraid of being able to push damage through high agility ships without a gunner ability. I do enjoy the symmetry of the second list where all three ships are hard to ignore. The 6 extra HP from the shuttle and double actions for both the TIE Advances is really nice as well. I’ve been keeping up on TLT controversy and I’ve only gone up against lists with 2 of them so far. The 4 Y-wing TLT’s is a list I dread almost as much as 4-B’s. I guess it really depends on what I end up facing, the store is brand new so there hasn’t been a chance for much of a meta to evolve yet so I have no idea what I might end up facing.

It’s great that with two different comments I got two different answers which doesn’t make my decision any easier, but does make me feel better that I’ll still have (small) chance with either list. Thanks for the reply!

i ran a list similar to the first, exchanging Colzet's FCS for AC (more consistent damage for TL just about every turn) Using him as a blocker of actions and flipper of crits. i did pretty well came in second (moral first because i beat his list earlier in the day not in the tournament and we never faced off in the tournament)

With the second list I’m slightly afraid of being able to push damage through high agility ships without a gunner ability. I do enjoy the symmetry of the second list where all three ships are hard to ignore. The 6 extra HP from the shuttle and double actions for both the TIE Advances is really nice as well. I’ve been keeping up on TLT controversy and I’ve only gone up against lists with 2 of them so far. The 4 Y-wing TLT’s is a list I dread almost as much as 4-B’s. I guess it really depends on what I end up facing, the store is brand new so there hasn’t been a chance for much of a meta to evolve yet so I have no idea what I might end up facing.

It’s great that with two different comments I got two different answers which doesn’t make my decision any easier, but does make me feel better that I’ll still have (small) chance with either list. Thanks for the reply!

But you have Palpatine. Either Vader or Maarek can score 3 hits/crits on any R2-3 attack, and 4 at R1. While 4 green dice with tokens might stop one of those, its unlikely to stop both (in a single turn). Getting the same target in arc with both might be tricky though, but if you use maarek as blocker, then you don't need to --- Vader can kill it by himself.

I don't think you have anything to worry about from generic b-wings. Vader can clean them up by himself if he has engine, as long as you kill at least 1 before the shuttle and maarek die (pretty easy to do). 4 Twin laser turrets are a different story, and your list may struggle against it. Key will be ensuring that not all twin lasers can shoot the same ship (ideally keeping one unable to shoot at all if you can pull it off).

Hopefully you noticed that Vader is pretty critical to that 2nd list. Keep him alive at all costs and you can beat most stuff. Whisper holds the same position in the first list and that's the main reason I prefer the 2nd list, because I think Vader is a bit easier to keep alive compared to Whisper. YMMV of course.

i ran a list similar to the first, exchanging Colzet's FCS for AC (more consistent damage for TL just about every turn) Using him as a blocker of actions and flipper of crits. i did pretty well came in second (moral first because i beat his list earlier in the day not in the tournament and we never faced off in the tournament)

I've gone back and forth on AC vs FCS and end up switching between the two all the time. FCS is nice because of Colzet's low PS making it harder to get TL and being able to use evades/focus. On the other hand having those two hits every attack is very nice too. If I end up using that list I'll probably switch to AC for the more consistent damage and view his ability as more of an occasional bonus.

Well for those you interested, I went with the first list and came in second overall. I ended up 50 pts of MOV behind first place. I had a decent chance of getting first but I ended up playing against Burk (who won overall) twice in a row for the last two games. Not only is he a pretty great player but he had a list that had some great strengths against mine. He fielded 2 PS 9 interceptors (Soontir and Turr) 2 TIE/FO’s and had a 98pt. initiative bid.

I don’t have the wherewithal yet to give a detailed battle report, but the first game I killed all his ships and he managed to take Colzet down with him. It was a really tough match up that basically came down to me controlling the first initial joust/merge with phantom shenanigans, by playing ultra conservative by some asteroids then darting forward and starting combat a round sooner than he was ready for as he was trying to pincer my three ships between his interceptors flying together and the TIE/fo’s.

I was not looking forward to the rematch and rightfully so. Burk had learned his lesson and Phantom was out of tricks. The slow roll forward along the edge with all ships together with the initiative bid coupled with my dice quitting on me resulted in one dead Phantom. I was able to kill Turr the same turn, but Soontir had a no issue with dancing around the slower Advances and when I sacrificed Colzet for last Hail Mary, Steele was only able to push one damage through.

All in all I’m pretty happy with how things went. While not the most original build, Whisper is undeniably still a Tier 1 threat. Steele is slow by comparison but great when you manage to push damage through, hopefully when the new damage deck becomes the norm, his ability will be even better. Colzet has a little trouble pulling his weight when compared to the other two heavy hitters, but he was the MVP for the first game when he killed Soontir out of arc by (FINALLY only one all day) flipping over a Direct Hit for the kill.

Thanks for reading and the advice!

Thank you for sharing the results of the list you ran. Whisper (and Echo) will continue to be a threat on the table because they handle a lot of 'normal' (read non-turret) lists a little easier. It is a ship with a high skill ceiling, especially after the change to the decloak mechanic.

Thank you for sharing the results of the list you ran. Whisper (and Echo) will continue to be a threat on the table because they handle a lot of 'normal' (read non-turret) lists a little easier. It is a ship with a high skill ceiling, especially after the change to the decloak mechanic.

It may be a mark of a noob, but I love Phantoms both for their strengths and weaknesses. I always feel like I'm dancing on a blade edge with them where I'm one bad move away from getting killed, but being able to fairly reliably push damage through anything. And getting those mid-late game range 1 shots with focus and TL? I think its worth the price of admission for the decent chance of half your list being one shot off the board.

Thank you for sharing the results of the list you ran. Whisper (and Echo) will continue to be a threat on the table because they handle a lot of 'normal' (read non-turret) lists a little easier. It is a ship with a high skill ceiling, especially after the change to the decloak mechanic.

It may be a mark of a noob, but I love Phantoms both for their strengths and weaknesses. I always feel like I'm dancing on a blade edge with them where I'm one bad move away from getting killed, but being able to fairly reliably push damage through anything. And getting those mid-late game range 1 shots with focus and TL? I think its worth the price of admission for the decent chance of half your list being one shot off the board.

Yeah, it is definitely a fun ship to fly. I would highly recommend building around it if it is your favorite ship. You just have to look at the difficult match ups for Whisper and try and counter that with the rest of your list. Right now a quad TLT list might be difficult for your TIE Advanceds, for example.