On that note, it almost sounds as if such a technology could be linked to the Emperor's Golden Throne, which was after all built by the AdMech as well.

Wait. Golden Throne was built by Emperor himself, and core rulebook even says somewhere that it's eldrich technology beyond AdMech ability to build and repair. They supposed to maintain it for 10k years, yea, but with creator instructions.

The preamble to Inquisitor suggests that they are forcefully keeping the Emperor locked in his carcass to keep the Astronomican lit and prevent his rebirth; quite grimdark, if you consider that from this perspective, Mankind's leader is effectively abused as a living torch for political reasons.

Wait. Golden Throne was built by Emperor himself, and core rulebook even says somewhere that it's eldrich technology beyond AdMech ability to build and repair. They supposed to maintain it for 10k years, yea, but with creator instructions.

Parts of the Golden Throne - the bits used to support maintaining the Astronomican - may have certainly existed prior to the Emperor's internment, but the stasis machinery, life support and sacrificial induction mechanisms must have been devised after the Heresy, for before that, there was no point in them existing, as the Emperor was obviously still very much alive.

Personally, I also don't buy into the idea of the Emperor building that stuff by himself and deem it a product of the mysticism and legend that arose around him. Partly because I'm no fan of omnipotent characters who can do anything by themselves, and partly because the section you are referring to makes it sounds as if the Emperor himself wielded hammer and blowing torch ("by his own hand"), which I consider a pretty silly image for a leader of an interplanetary empire. But also because most sources say that "the Emperor created the Space Marines" .. when WD #98 featured a story where the Emperor has to get briefed by one "Dr. Outek" on what the Astartes actually are.

In a way, the Emperor usurping credit for the achievements of his underlings (or rather, Imperial propaganda forcing said credit upon him) is quite fitting for the setting and a reflection of real world historical revisionism. And when the AdMech can forget details on the proper creation of Astartes (resulting in geneseed degradation), or how to build safe plasma weapons, or mass-produce antigrav units capable of supporting heavy vehicles, they can certainly forget minor details on how the Golden Throne works. Minor details which may not be very important by themselves, but which add up to an ever-escalating list of flaws over the course of 10,000 years.

"To sustain the Emperor's shattered body, a great device called the Golden Throne was devised and built. Using arcane techniques and machines whose function have long passed from true understanding, the Golden Throne fulfils its grim purpose."

-- 3E rulebook

This obviously delves into personal interpretation of the sources, though, and perhaps I should have made that more obvious. Then again, the entire discussion is one built chiefly on perspectives and preferences.

Yeah, Thorians. Point is I haven't any problem with "body incapable - mind/spirit capable". My problem is with "body capable, mind incapable, soul capable", with access to psy abilities.

After all if you can use that incapable psykers to make astrotelepathy, why bother with all that AAT at all?

Well, it depends on how you define what the soul is actually capable of, or how you regard its role and importance for psychic powers. I am looking more towards the mind, which would be the part responsible for receiving the data packages, and which can be tricked by drugs or neurosurgery. If the soul is an important part of the psychic process at all, rather than just a shadow of the mind, then perhaps it functions more like a catalyst, in which case its condition would not matter and the only thing that counts is that it's there, trapped.

After all, knowledge - and with it the ability to process information - would be something for the brain. The soul I see more about personality, though I have no strong preference over whether I'd regard it as the soul influencing the brain (how information is processed) or vice versa (information shaping the soul). Like I said, lots of possible theories here.

Just playing Devil's Advocate a bit here, mind you. I still don't like the idea.

And as for why the Imperium would not use this technology more often, I've presented a theory here .

arts of the Golden Throne - the bits used to support maintaining the Astronomican - may have certainly existed prior to the Emperor's internment, but the stasis machinery, life support and sacrificial induction mechanisms must have been devised after the Heresy, for before that, there was no point in them existing, as the Emperor was obviously still very much alive.

Well, I always thought about GT as about great psy amplifier, and it's totally understandable you need some kind of life support in such system. But yes, it's kind of personal preferences - I like an idea of great sciensist on the top of Imperium, who devised main current tech-sorcery, including Space Marines and Golden Throne. After all, everybody needs a hobby!

Of course, he had staff, he had laborants and he have assemblers. But I really believe that GT was his design. Even if I can't accept vast majority of 30K part of lore.

If the soul is an important part of the psychic process at all, rather than just a shadow of the mind, then perhaps it functions more like a catalyst, in which case its condition would not matter and the only thing that counts is that it's there, trapped.

It's possible to transfer mind into another body and it will stays intact, isn't it? I mean, possessions prove it.

And as for why the Imperium would not use this technology more often, I've presented a theory here .

It's possible to transfer mind into another body and it will stays intact, isn't it? I mean, possessions prove it.

Yeah, but what do you mean with that in context to the subject of "psychic servitors"?

After all, if you can create stable network with very limited supply of psykers (AM isn't AAT, right?) you can achieve a lot with big supply. Yup, it's hard; when it stops AM? And yeah, it's cruel; who cares?

The thing is, we don't know what sort of supply would be needed. It could require some very special drug that can only be harvested on a single world, or interface components whose manufacturing knowledge has long since been lost to time meaning the network cannot be expanded beyond its current capabilities, and all the AdMech can do would be to sustain it by "feeding" it new psykers to replace burnt-out servitors.

And last but not least, the AdMech has a whole lot of projects going on, and any resource is finite if you consider application on an interstellar scale. If the Imperium could just churn out whatever it needs, it would have mass-produced a billion Titans and invaded the Eye of Chaos ages ago. But this way, everybody has to juggle their resources as every Magos wants a piece of the cake, just like with a real state.

Yeah, but what do you mean with that in context to the subject of "psychic servitors"?

I mean that brain state is not very directly linked with mind state, just it.

Yes, possession is the part where 40k seems to disregard science entirely for the fantasy. ^^'

It arguably does not require a brain to be present, as it can affect any object. Yet only a brain can store memories etc by various biological/neurological processes... But perhaps this information is "outsourced" into the Warp (where we know thoughts, dreams and emotions roam) and possession merely creates a permanent link between the host body and the Immaterium?

This theory could even be used to explain things like banishments and exorcisms, meaning how "daemons" always return to the Warp -- which would actually be a misinterpretation, as the suggested reality is that they've never actually existed in Realspace at all, and merely projected their essence into it! Cut the signal, and the host will "power down" like a lamp with its cord pulled out of the socket.

Either way, it's a special case not really reflecting the normal relationship between brain and mind, but rather something that overrides it.

Of course; but Imperium can exist without billion Titans and can't without astropathic network.

And that's why they'd be fine with using normal Astropaths, just like they are recruiting billions upon billions of Guardsmen to make up for the "missing" Titan Legions.

But I like an idea that this "servitor" isn't servitor but device that AM created and demanded to feed living psyker to it. Maybe they even reverse engeneered Golden Throne for this devices?..

Hm. Idea just became more intresting for me.

That reminds me ... in DH1 there was a drug created from powdered/distilled psyker brains which was capable of providing the user with temporary psychic ability. Perhaps something you can use?

It arguably does not require a brain to be present, as it can affect any object. Yet only a brain can store memories etc by various biological/neurological processes... But perhaps this information is "outsourced" into the Warp (where we know thoughts, dreams and emotions roam) and possession merely creates a permanent link between the host body and the Immaterium?

Why "only"? Warp-being can remember things even without brain.

That's why I suggested the Immaterium to serve as a repository for this knowledge. Thoughts, dreams and emotions floating through it means that it can serve as a medium, just like a brain.

This is the only way I could form a connection with actual science (where feelings are a product of chemical reactions, and memories are engrams, rather than " it's magic ") -- but it depends on how you prefer to see the setting, meaning where your personal balance between science-fiction and science-fantasy lies. I just happen to prefer a more scientific approach, which is why I have a few "unconventional" theories on how things might work, from the true nature of Saint Celestine to the actual role of the Emperor or his current condition.

As I can see it's not a problem to storm Eye of Chaos, btw. Some Eldar did it without any Titans after all. Problem is... what are you going to do there when you will?!

Get corrupted?

The Imperium attempted several crusades into the Eye as well, but ultimately it either turned into a suicide mission, or a war of attrition.

There's probably several better examples of where the Imperium could use unlimited military resources. An impenetrable Naval quarantine around the Eye? Total victory at Armageddon? Smashing the Tau Empire? That sort of stuff.

I always believed it's working because every human being is a psyker by some extent.

Depending on the sources you go by, the Imperium has the means to scan for a "psyker gene", which is how they pick up people for the Black Ships. But of course, depending on your interpretation, you could simply assume that these devices aren't very accurate, or perhaps this gene can still form late in life as a result of humanity's evolutionary potential with various "stimuli" such as exposure to the Warp?

One of James Swallow's novels even featured an ancient machine built during the days of the Great Crusade that could turn any human into a psyker, though at least with how its discoverers operated it, it seemed to require a psyker sacrifice, as if it could transfer psychic potential from one being to another.

But of course it also depends on just how we define "psychic". With the sole exception of Blanks, the entirety of mankind is somehow connected to the Warp, as they are feeding it with thoughts and emotions, and are susceptible to its influence. This could well be construed as a general psychic potential, just very far from the degree that allows someone to actively tap it. As per Inquisitor , the Tau are an example of a race where psychic potential is entirely absent, and it shows by daemons having a tendency not to notice them even if they are sharing the same room.

It's kinda became totally offtopic, I'm sorry.

Well .. it's the nature of any forum. Discussions can shift either way all depending on what people feel is worth talking about. No harm done as long as we don't actively interrupt an ongoing on-topic debate.

True enough.

Thing is it's hard to me to invent scientific explanations for horned two-headed bird who shows itself from Galaxy collective unconciousness. Simpler to admit that Warp isn't positive, so you can't really rely on logic and science when Warp is involved. So yeah, it's a kind of magic, with it's own magic rules.

Of course there is SOMETHING in genes, because Navigators. But I don't admit it can be only in genes, because genetic points are, well, kind of static (without Tzeentch). You can detect all psykers who is born on civilized planet, no sudden "hey, I'm your new psycho pyrocinetic!" options. For me genetic mutations aren't source but consequence, so you can detect latent psyker (somebody who is less latent as usual I mean). You can't detect anybody who CAN awaken, because essentialy everybody non-blank can.

That's my interpretation, of course, because we have frustratingly low amount of info about psykers. I mean in GW sources; they are, and it's understandable, shining in novels and comics as I know.

"The Imperium attempted several crusades into the Eye as well, but ultimately it either turned into a suicide mission, or a war of attrition. "

Gods... The sheer stupidity of this is staggering, even in the Imperium. Who could even think that attacking an ennemy whose numbers are infinite and is insanely corruptive could ever be a good idea?

I'd love a few examples if you have any - I'd be interested in reading more about it.

"The Imperium attempted several crusades into the Eye as well, but ultimately it either turned into a suicide mission, or a war of attrition. "

Gods... The sheer stupidity of this is staggering, even in the Imperium. Who could even think that attacking an ennemy whose numbers are infinite and is insanely corruptive could ever be a good idea?

I'd love a few examples if you have any - I'd be interested in reading more about it.

I know the space wolves sent the 13th great company (I.e. The Wulfen) into the eye to hunt down and kill chaos marines (and also because the wulfen were getting a bit to wild and full on werewolf, even for the space wolves.)

That sorta worked: But there have been over 30 whole chapters lost from going on a crusade into the eye:

The Abyssal Crusade: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abyssal_Crusade

I'm not sure if the imperium is insane enough to have tried it with imperial guard regiments... even they can't be that stupid can they?

The Abyssal Crusade is the most prominent example, indeed.

Space Wolves ... well, they're the special snowflakes of the Space Marines, so no surprise there. I bet more Chapters have tried, though; so-called "penitent crusades" are fairly popular with Marines who have fallen from grace, and the Eye is the most obvious target.

Also, from Codex Planetstrike:

• The Conquest of Goreswirl, 772.M41
  50 Grey Knights survive the journey to the Daemon world Goreswirl deep within the Eye of Terror to destroy the Daemon Prince Bloodthunderer. Everyone dies, but it is said they managed to banish over a thousand Khorne Daemons before doing so.
  
• The Bone Citadel, 949.M41
  A force of Salamander Space Marines goes missing after pursuing Ahrimans fleet into the Eye of Terror. The last transmission concerns an assault on the Daemon world Ossea.

As for Guard regiments, I distinctively recall that one or more regiments were indeed sent into the Eye, even though this was a lone bureaucratic error rather than an intentional war effort. Sadly, I can't find the source atm.

"The Imperium attempted several crusades into the Eye as well, but ultimately it either turned into a suicide mission, or a war of attrition. "

Gods... The sheer stupidity of this is staggering, even in the Imperium. Who could even think that attacking an ennemy whose numbers are infinite and is insanely corruptive could ever be a good idea?

I'd love a few examples if you have any - I'd be interested in reading more about it.

I know the space wolves sent the 13th great company (I.e. The Wulfen) into the eye to hunt down and kill chaos marines (and also because the wulfen were getting a bit to wild and full on werewolf, even for the space wolves.)

That sorta worked: But there have been over 30 whole chapters lost from going on a crusade into the eye:

The Abyssal Crusade: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Abyssal_Crusade

I'm not sure if the imperium is insane enough to have tried it with imperial guard regiments... even they can't be that stupid can they?

Thanks a million!

But btw, it should be kinda obvious from my username that I know what the Abyssal crusade is

I am on that Lexicanum page after all!

The Abyssal Crusade is the most prominent example, indeed.

Space Wolves ... well, they're the special snowflakes of the Space Marines, so no surprise there. I bet more Chapters have tried, though; so-called "penitent crusades" are fairly popular with Marines who have fallen from grace, and the Eye is the most obvious target.

Also, from Codex Planetstrike:

• The Conquest of Goreswirl, 772.M41

  50 Grey Knights survive the journey to the Daemon world Goreswirl deep within the Eye of Terror to destroy the Daemon Prince Bloodthunderer. Everyone dies, but it is said they managed to banish over a thousand Khorne Daemons before doing so.

• The Bone Citadel, 949.M41

  A force of Salamander Space Marines goes missing after pursuing Ahrimans fleet into the Eye of Terror. The last transmission concerns an assault on the Daemon world Ossea.

As for Guard regiments, I distinctively recall that one or more regiments were indeed sent into the Eye, even though this was a lone bureaucratic error rather than an intentional war effort. Sadly, I can't find the source atm.

Thanks a million for the sources!

And yeah, I can totally imagine a bunch of transports deciding to follow orders sending them into THE F*****G EYE OF TERROR ITSELF

Reading Ravenor Returns at the moment. Eustis Majoris definitely has internet.

Info has been proven (even in present day society) to also be a commodity as well as grain, oil, ore, water, etc.

So commodities in 40k are controlled by government and guild.

A place might have an intra- net, but that would be monitored by the govt of the area,

and self-policed by the guild (probably ad-mechs) that own the equipment.

And each interchange of info would be confirmed, aunthenticated, and charged for the priviledge.

Inter -Networked data archives or whatever are not going to happen.

Whose neck is on the line if it is discovered that a machine spread heresy, corruption, or sedition?

The logistician in charge, and he will not just anyone "log on to it"

and he will send armed skitari after anyone who abuses it.

=`=`=`=``=`=`=``=`=-=`=`=`=``=`=`=``=`=-=`=`=`=``=`=`=``=`=-=`=`=`=``=`=`=``=`=

In our old Rogue Trader 4OK game, we almost always wear armor or space suits,
and we have the tech for helmet cameras, so we can review footage, or show superiors
what we found out in the field, etc.

Also we have an extensive inter-network for our crew, and full modern communication for the whole starship,
with "blackberries", tablets, etc. And a "web site" where crewman can upload videos.

So, we are showing a visiting tech-priest the video from when a Necron Monolith
hacked (via radio) into my tech-marine's servo-arm and made it attack me:

Tech-Marine: see here how my arm's operating lights turn noxious green, same as their gun color.

Tech-Priest: they turned your own tools against you!

Guardsman: yeah, the clip where it drills into his head got over 9000 hits on CrewTube

~~~~

info would be treated as just another fiefdom:

Here is a data-crypt oh engineer, it is your responsibility. only let me or my family use it.

raise up sons to safeguard it after you and I are gone.

to then only use the info to serve the needs of the emperor & his true servants.

There could be networks for cogitators. They would exist in-house, or on-board a ship.

Every entity with a PF could have a network for its own data. IE Nobles, PDFs,

Convents, Guard units, Governors, Chapter Houses, Guilds, Traders, Chartists, Navigators, etc.

Those nets would hardly ever talk to each other, and not be "internetted".

But would be safely intra-netted within the organization.

40k is a feudal society, and the engineers especially so.

Access to info would be given either by command, or in exchange for privileges or money.

Somewhere on the network is going to be a machine spirit, to combat corruption,

and corroborate access.

If your org needs info from my org, you're going to have to ask for it personally,

and probably negotiate for it. your tech will talk to my tech, and the info,

{the techs also may have their own negotiation separate from that of their masters.}

One way to look at this is to look at the strength of an internet

To distribute info

Now for the imperium that is an issue.

The pro:

Everyone communicates their ideas and shares info freely ( as well as progress in leaps and bounds)

Is way out balanced by the cons:

Rebellion (as pointed out very well in a previous post)

And the big looming threat of Chaos ( that I am going to go into more)

Also love the Necron example!

Already we know anything can be corrupted by the warp guns, tanks, and most importantly data.

So what happens when one cultist uploads an image of a Chaos glyph or a prayer that is labeled as a prayer to the emperor. Rather than an isolated issue that needs to be purged you have a planet wide issue. That could call for exterminates. In a very real sense it spam or bad links could kill!

A lot of the imperium’s philosophy’s makes sense when you think of this statement

Tekpriest with good intent: Look what we found, a piece of xeno tech that could make life better for everyone.

Fabricator-General: Really? What do you know about that race? How do they normally look? What do they look like when they are warp tainted? What is their tek supposed to look like? What are the long term affects of what you found, Life today and a demon army tomorrow?

Tekpriest with good intent: …

Fabricator-General: That is what I thought, destroy the device to its base elements and report to your nearest superior for cleansing.