At the bottom of the Move tree there is the talent "Control" that reads:

"The character can perform fine manipulation of items, allowing

him to do whatever he would normally with his hands via this

power at this power’s range."

Does this include lightsaber fighting? If it does would they need an ability that lets them use a force power as a maneuver? Otherwise it'd be one action to use Move and one to fight right?

Well it doesn't explicitly state that it includes fighting, nor that it's excluded, so I guess you'd have to decide for yourself (that's how things seem to be with this system.)

If you were to allow it I'd say the act of using Move to do the fine manipulation is the same action as fighting/attacking with it. I'd require the Move check to be made as part of a Discipline check I think, the check being the attack. The difficulty would at least be Hard or higher, depending on range. Of course you also need to get the lightsaber out there, which is a separate action - let's hope you don't drop it on the way

Functionally, as "Saber Throw" is a thing I would assume if you really wanted to, I would say yes you can. There are, however certain drawbacks I see to the use of Move as compared to the more highly specialized application of a Jedi's telekinesis which is essentially how "Saber Throw" feels to me.

First, the pro column:

1) You can potentially hit from WAY further away thanks to activation of range upgrades

2) If you really ate your wheaties, forget dual wielding... activating magnitudes can allow you to fling a squadron of Lightsabers which you can finely control (though I would rule the logical extension of the dual wielding penalties apply here, so if two lightsabers becomes a 3 purple, 3 sabers = 4 purple, 4 lightsabers = 5 purple, etc... on top of the increase in difficulty that Jegergryte mentioned that just makes sense, as you aren't flinging this like a bullet on a ballistic trajectory, but attempting to use a more civilized weapon from a more elegant time with the power of your mind.)

Thus endeth the Pro Column

Now for the Cons I see with this plan

1) You absolutely without a question and beyond the shadow of a doubt must use Discipline(Will) to make the attack roll. This means absolutely zero chance of combining this with any form of lightsaber related talent because best case they require a "Lightsaber combat check" which this is not, or a "Lightsaber(<Fill in the attribute>) check" which this is also not.

2) While your lightsaber is over there, it cannot defend you back here. You've got no Parry, no Reflect, no defensive from that Lorrdian gem you popped into it.

3) And this is the big one. Like, crazy big one. There is no duration upgrade anywhere at all in the description. What does this mean? It means you cannot keep this power up like you can anything with a commit. It means once you are done poking a baddie from across town, the lightsaber basically falls to the ground. No recall to your hand like Saber Throw would even be possible. Now, there is nothing preventing you from picking it up again with move on your next turn, except for maybe the fickle Force Dice. If you don't roll enough LSP to activate all those range or magnitude upgrades, there it sits. This also means that after you whack someone with it from afar, the possibility of someone else using a maneuver to pick it up after your turn but before it comes back around again is a real thing, and I can guarantee you that if this was my table and a lightsaber wound up a range band or more away from its owner after probably skewering some minion, one of their friends will pick it up. To be fair the consequence of someone picking up your lightsaber can be mitigated by getting to that third control by way of the second that allows you to rip objects out of secure mountings or people's hands, but the risk needs to be stated.

So, in conclusion, can you do this? I would say yes. Should you do this? Only after weighing the risks verses rewards.

Hey, it worked for Darth Traya.

First I can not believe some one does not understand the basics of move.

1. Move has no duration and this is intentional. When someone decides to use move for longer periods of time its recommended either to inflict strain equal to the silhoutte or to commit a force die to upkeep the power.

2. Move lets you move and manipulate multiple objects at once if you spend for it. So you could in fact be controlling more then one light saber at a time. Which means you can have one floating off to attack people while having two or three back reflecting and parrying attacks. or You could have two attacking while two defend you.

So in short Move using lightsaber combat would require

1 force point to lift X number of light sabers between 1 and 4 depending on purchased upgrades.

1 force point for range

1 force point for activation.

Personally in this case I would force committing at least 1 force die and spend strain equal to the number of light sabers being controlled at once each round of combat.

It's up to the GM of course, but I'm betting we'll eventually find that Move, Saber Throw, and Force Lightsaber Poltergeist are going to eventually be identified as three separate things.

Move is... movement, Throw is exactly that, and Force Lightsaber Poltergeist is more a kind of fighting style. Traya (as is typical) raises as many questions as she answers when it comes to how this would work.

Offhand if I were to house rule it I'd probably make it some kind of power or talent or set of talents that allowed the commitment of 1 Force Die per saber, upgrading the difficulty each time akin to multi weapon attacks and allowed the character to move and use the saber/s using their maneuvers and actions. Traya doesn't fight with the sabers while running around herself so it seems consistent that you couldn't do both at once.

Edit: Amended see post below.

Saber Throw is already a talent in the Shien Expert tree. I could see using move to have it hover and use the Saber Throw for the attack effect. Use Move to pull it back.

Until you get higher force powers though, I would call this a gambit with a high chance of losing your 10,000 credit primary weapon.

As described above you are essentially replacing the skill you would need to attack with (Lightsaber) with a skill you're likely already be heavily invested in (Discipline) if you stick with RAW. and at a lowered difficulty. Essentially, you would be taking an Average Lightsaber check and turning it into a simple (no difficulty for silhouette 0) Discipline check that you can preform at a range. That sounds pretty unfair compared to not just those invested in lightsaber combat, but those non-Force sensitives that still have to make more difficult checks.

I would be sticking pretty close to RAW in this case. You can make the simple Discipline check with your Force dice as described in the Move tree, but you'll also be doing the same 5 damage as every other silhouette 0 object as described by the Hurl upgrade in the Move power*. Any other resolution would be cheesy and too over-powered.

*Note: Hurl is the only upgrade that allows for dealing damage. Without this application of the move power, I rule that the object moves too slower or clumsily and the target would be able to dodge the attack.

Personally I wouldn't allow it because of the cheese factor, same as the "fling somebody up to long range and let them fall". But YMMV...

Saber Throw is already a talent in the Shien Expert tree. I could see using move to have it hover and use the Saber Throw for the attack effect. Use Move to pull it back.

Until you get higher force powers though, I would call this a gambit with a high chance of losing your 10,000 credit primary weapon.

I totally missed that thanks. I amend my response to:

If the Talent already exists then thats what you need to get to do it properly mechanically within the system and since it's already present within the RAW there is no reason to House Rule it. So if you want to be able to effectively throw your Lightsabre then you must buy into the Shien Expert tree and acquire the Talent.

As for fighting long distance using the bottom Move Control Talent, it seem pretty self explanatory, fire it up and fight as normal. Seems cartoony but it looks like thats how it works.

Thanks for the great feedback! Especially GentlemanScoundrel, very good points. Decorus, your sass is unnecessary. The BASICS of move are understood. What we are talking about is an application of a move talent that is not referenced anywhere and has no rules defined within the system. So not entirely basic.. if you're going to get insulted at the question, don't try to answer it.

We playtested an application of this last night. Automatic upgrade just because you're doing something kinda awkward, and then increase in melee difficulty based on range.. it was ridiculously difficult and ultimately not worth it. Tho I DO feel range should be a factor. Trying to skewer someone across a room should be easier then across the block.

Also it shouldn't take an action? That's the biggest point of contention at my table. Using Move is an action.. attacking w a lightsaber is also an action.. but that would limit how often you can do this pretty severely, only a handful of talents let you use force powers as maneuvers.

Great discussion!

It wasn't sass it was obvious someone failed to read the side bar in the book that explained how move works over a duration greater then instant. I don't like it when someone gives a ruling without actually knowing how the game mechanics actually work. Its bad form.

Yeah, on the surface I probably wouldn't allow for Move to be used to wield a lightsaber in combat.

Yes, we saw Kriea do it at the end of KOTOR2, but she's a Jedi Master/Sith Lord with a very in-depth understanding of the Force (even though she despises the very thing that gives her power).

Heck, this is the sort of thing that nearly screams "Signature Ability!" in terms of usefulness of being able to use the Force to wield one or more weapons hands-free.

Now, if I were to permit this sort of thing in my game, I'd have the PC still use their Lightsaber skill, but without an associated characteristic; they're just going on pure skill. I might consider an exception if the PC has the Niman Technique talent, given the Form's heavy usage of telekinesis in combat. And it'd still be at the normal difficulty for a melee attack, that being 2 purple difficulty since the PC isn't doing the "fling and forget it" type of attack that generally comprises how Move is used in a fight. If attacking with multiple lightsabers, the PC would need to activate those Magnitude Upgrades and it'd be treated as an autofire attack (increase difficulty by 1, need to spend 2 Advantage to trigger additional hits).

And if the PC wanted to do that from round to round, they will have to commit a Force die as part of activating the effect, which still requires their action, so it's either one round and done, or don't attack that first round so you can commit the Force die and make attacks on the following rounds.

I don't get what all the fuss is about...

If you gave your player enough Lightsaber crystals so he could build 5, then it's your own fault. If your player only has 1 Lightsaber, then Saber Throw is still the best, but Move power could compensate if necessary.

With Saber Throw, you roll your Lightsaber Skill along with your Force Rating against a Medium Difficulty, needing 1 Pip to succeed and 1 Pip to bring your saber back.

With Move power, you need to make a Discipline check difficulty of 0, along with a Force check needing 2 Pips (1 basic, 1 range), and a Lightsaber check against a Medium Difficulty modified by the target's defense bonus. You can't bring back your Lightsaber so you won't be able to use Parry or Reflect. If you sustain it, you have to commit 1 Force Die. { to make it simple, the character had 2 Range upgrades and all the control upgrades for a total of 50xp. }

For the Lightsaber check... if that power was used to hack a computer or apply a Stim, you would have your character roll a Computers or Medecine check respectively ; it's the same thing for range-wielding a Lightsaber.

To me, Saber Throw is better, but Move control upgrades can make you look like Kreiya from Kotor2.

Buy the rules sure why. Not. But by spirit no

Getting light sabers is actually pretty easy considering the party will end up fighting people who use light sabers and will either be disarming them or taking them from the cold dead corpse who no longer needs it. At first it will be hard then as time goes on you will be swimming in them. Once that happens people look for ways to use multiple light sabers at once. Which eventually leads to move.

So the way we have done it;

I have a player who likes having as many light sabers as possible.

using the move force action he spent two force pips. One to activate move and one for more objects. Having maxed out move he picked up 5 lightsabers; and commit a force die. Because they are size 0 there is no strain a turn. But to attack with them we treat it as a ranged weapon with ranged rules and multiple weapons. Using the light saber skill; and any style talents he has Nimen master and uses 5 weapons for a long range attack it’s super hard to hit but the rules allow it. You just have to put them in the right order.

he also uses 2 more in hand to parry and reflect. We have been playing a long time and built up he is rather strong but he misses a lot of attacks because of the difficulty to hit.

I've seen a guy who took the Bounty Hunter signature ability with Martial Artist who literally carries as many glow sticks as he can then uses them one at a time with his signature ability...

As others have mentioned, Traya comes to mind but she is a top level boss. I think it would work but as Shiba mentioned, there will be penalties to hit. Extending the Two weapon fighting out to even more, you would need an increasing amount of Advantages to hit with all of them.

It would just be easier to just learn the skill from one of the specializations than to try and use move power. You will have an easier chance of it working and less of a chance of it failing. You would probably also do allot more damage since that damage is based on your lightsaber skill check anyways. It would also require less black or white pips to successfully use.

Order 66 discussed this a while back and came to the conclusion that multiple attacks could be treated as autofire, and for skill you took the worst combination of characteristics and skill ranks from lightsaber and discipline, kind of like you do with dual wielding.

Personally I'd rather see this as a kind of Signature ability, or similar tier option.

Make it attainable, but also something that the entire party is unlikely to have on their sheet.

If you just use the system as it was designed, this approach has plenty of things going against it, that make it unnecessary IMO to relegate it to Signature Ability status.

RAW requirements:

1. Move Power (10 xp)

2. Fine Manipulation Control Upgrade (35 xp, minimally)

This gets you the ability to wield a single Lightsaber at Medium Range, for 2 pips (Light or Dark).

A reasonable Difficulty, IMO, would be the standard Melee Dif (Average) with a +1 base Difficulty raise (so, Hard), and I'd assess 1 Setback per Range Band beyond Engaged for trying to melee through spatial displacement, plus of course Cover/additional Setbacks if there are obstructions to your view (people or objects) of the target.

Furthermore, by RAW, as-is, at the end of the attack, the saber drops to the ground. Anyone can pick it up, including the target. This could be remedied by the Player, by having a Talent that allowed them to use the Move Power as a Maneuver (in which case it's another Force Power check/potentially more Conflict, and it's a once per session thing) to return it to themself. Or by the GM allowing the Player to Commit a Force Die to maintain the original Move Power through to the beginning of their next round, as discussed in a sidebar, which Committing a FR miss another significant cost (unavailable for the Move Power check itself).

FURTHER furthermore, they can't use their saber to protect themself/Parry/Reflect, or arguably to get Defensive/Deflection die or whatever other bonus might not apply. This is a huge drawback.

So to wield 1 Lightsaber at Medium Range would require, minimally, 45 XP invested, 2 Force Pips, 1 Force Rating/Die committed, and a Difficulty of PPPBB (not including Adversary).

For something that is arguably no better if not much worse than what 9K (cost of LS crystal) in mods to a heavy blaster rifle could get a PC when specced for that weapon.

Throw in the desire for multiple sabers, and not only are you spending more XP (5 per additional saber up to 2, then 10 per, max of 30 xp for a max of 4 additional sabers), WAY more money, and Force pips (1 for all additional sabers), but also if you just apply the Dual Wielding rules that's a +1 Difficulty per additional saber. Which means anything beyond 2 additional sabers they don't even have a Difficulty category for (does that mean it's not possible?). But also I feel like you're within your rights as GM to Upgrade the Difficulty for every additional saber wielded, just to manage that many "fights", not to mention the Setbacks outlined above...

Putting that all together would mean to wield 3 sabers at Medium Range would require, minimally, 55 XP invested, 3 Force Pips, 1 committed Force Die/Rating, and a Difficulty of RRPPPBB, which would need 4 net Advantages to hit with them all. 5 sabers, if you allowed it, for all that, at RRRRPPPBB Difficulty... It's just ridiculous. Nonsense, even.

But it'd look awesome, and I'd love to watch someone try...

The only valid argument to make it a Signature Ability, IMO, is so that it wouldn't be so ridiculously un-optimal.

Houseruling it to be handled like Auto-Fire would go a long ways toward optimizing it (perhaps too far), but again there's no reason to disallow it out of hand if they're following RAW methods. It's not very good, it's just cool.

There are so many different specializations that have saber throw in it. FFG went out of its way to make sure most forms have a specialization that has it like armorer, sentry, ataru, shien and I think theres more. I mean seems really bad to try and use move to do this when you can do it better and with less pips just using the lightsaber throw talent in one of the specializations.

On a side note that control box in the move tree allowing you to perform fine manipulations of items, allowing him to do whatever he could normally do whit his hands has to do with more like putting a lightsaber together with the move force power or like manipulating a control board like pushing a button on it. If you read the control upgrade in detail it gives you an idea what it was meant for. The control board from the book was just a reference or an example from the FFG developers on what they meant for it to be used for. Was never designed or meant to replace lightsaber throw, and if you try and use move to throw a saber you need to follow the damage rules from the move force power. It doesnt use the damage from the saber itself but a static damage number that is determined by the silhouette of the object being used, which isnt much at all for an object with a silhouette of 0. The move force power outlines all this in the the book. Plus if you plan to throw something throw a ship( silhouette 3 or 4) it does allot of damage and can take out groups of people.