So this is a bit of theory crafting. I haven't had time to test it yet (and you'll see why at the end), though other's experience would be helpful. The goal is to destroy the Demolisher before it attacks. We'll assume its in the 1st place Gencon list of VGGG and our goal is to destroy it regardless of going first or second.

So we must first work out the demolisher's threat range.

It needs to get within short range to fire for devastating effect, and we'll give it the ideal starting place at its maximum possible range. Of course in real games, it should usually be a little bit closer. We'll also put the engine tech on it to give it the equivalent of speed 4.

So speed 4 + just barely scratching short range = 4*(6.9 cm) + 12.3 cm = 39.9 cm.

Our attack needs to come from 40+ cm away.

We have to use squadrons to do so, so...

From our ship, we have a command range of medium for 18.7 cm.

Our squadron width is 3.4, so lets say 3.3 cm.

Normal squadron attack range is 1 distance so 12.3 cm.

That comes to 34.3 cm.

A b-wing moves up to distance 2, for 12.4 cm, meaning all squadrons can strike up to 46.7 cm away.

A Rymer/Corrupter Ball can strike (18.7 + 3.3 + 18.7 + 30.4 = 71.1 distance from the command ship)

We need to put on 7 or 8 damage to get through one facing. The redirect(s) mean 3 or 2 more and another 1 or 2, and the brace(s) means another 1+1. The Evade shouldn't matter unless the rhymer ball is attacking from medium and not close. So a total of 13 or 14 damage. It's 13 if we can hit from the side, 14 if we're hitting the front.

So we would need 13 TIE-Bombers assuming average rolls as we can pretty much be assured of coming in from the side. And one of the redirects can't do 3, so really its 12 damage. Of course, every bomber more makes it more likely to kill. We also didn't take into account crits.

B-wings do an average of 1.75 damage. But because of limited range, we must assume a frontal attack. So that means the full 14 damage. Or 8 B-wings. We may get lucky and the accuracy may come up at an important time, but I doubt its worth figuring in.

So....

13 TIE Bombers = 117 points....

8 B-wings = 112 points....

So not for the 300 point games.

But come 400, I'd bring a fighter squadrons or two....

And you need enough squadron activations to accomplish all this.

Meaning as soon as the first wave is launched, the demolisher can move forward.

The other problems is you're sending 112 points out to obliterate a 74 point target.

Nash,

I forgot to factor in our ship movement. So one by one our ships are moving forward a minimum of 6.9 cm unless you're at a dead stop. So really the perfect Demolisher positioning is 46.8 cm. Or .1cm farther than our B-wings. I also didn't yet factor in the spread of 8 b-wing which take up non-trivial space making a more likely strike distance 43 cm or there about depending upon how you shape your ball.

Rhymer ball it is.

Now we just need to get all those ship activations...

I'm not sure what this is accomplishing.

A) Why squadrons only?

B) Demolisher wasn't on the GenCon list, and doesn't fit in that list at 300 without sacrificing Assault Concussion Missiles.

C) You will only get off 3-4 squadrons before the other player can activate.

killing demo before it attacks is basically impossible

this is a good thing. You don't drop 70+ on something that can be trivially swatted off the table before it gets at least one barrage off

of course, the weakness of the demo is that you'll be handing your opponent free points if the demo dies after only one barrage

though it's true only squadrons can outrange it (esp rhymer)

So the conclusion to be drawn from the above analysis is that that you can't blow up Demolisher before it gets at least one attack off (unless you spend a ton of points on bombers and get stupidly lucky). You basically need three turns' worth of an unmolested, carrier-activated 4-bomber group to have a fair chance to blow it up. Or two, if you manage to get a good shot off your carrier.

That's more or less what my gut feeling told me, but it's good to have the numbers to back that up. Thanks, Tranenturm!

Don't forget that the best bang for your points is actually squadrons because of the brace.

Ships can take it down over time but the brace can hurt the operation. That is where cards like Intel Officer come in handy

So the conclusion to be drawn from the above analysis is that that you can't blow up Demolisher before it gets at least one attack off (unless you spend a ton of points on bombers and get stupidly lucky). You basically need three turns' worth of an unmolested, carrier-activated 4-bomber group to have a fair chance to blow it up. Or two, if you manage to get a good shot off your carrier.

That's more or less what my gut feeling told me, but it's good to have the numbers to back that up. Thanks, Tranenturm!

So its probably best to look at what you can do to punish the Demolisher after he's moved in and fired his one attack, or better yet, how to make that move as unfavorable to him as possible, using blocking ships, obstacles, and activation timing if available. It's simply unfeasible to prevent the Demolisher from moving and then attacking.

This is true, it just didn't seem to be what he was trying to get at.

I would suggest the correct method to assail the Demolisher before it attacks is long-range dice so you can be assured you will have the opportunity. Ironically, something similar-ish to the 2nd place list from Gencon is probably best equipped, as multiple long range AFII broadsides with Intel Officers will make a mess of Demolisher, which punches hard but is comparatively fragile.

I would suggest the correct method to assail the Demolisher before it attacks is long-range dice so you can be assured you will have the opportunity. Ironically, something similar-ish to the 2nd place list from Gencon is probably best equipped, as multiple long range AFII broadsides with Intel Officers will make a mess of Demolisher, which punches hard but is comparatively fragile.

If you're hitting the Demolisher with Red dice, the player controlling Demolisher has done something very, very, very wrong. Its literally impossible to hit the Demolisher w/ Engine Techs before he gets his move'shoot.

This is true, it just didn't seem to be what he was trying to get at.

No, it isn't, but I found his analysis useful even if I didn't agree with his premise or his conclusions

Um... thanks...

I meant it in the nicest possible way

I sincerely appreciate all the legwork you did. Even if I think the scenario you're analyzing is somewhat contrived and artificial (spherical cows in a vacuum and all that), the methodology is sound and the results are very helpful!

I'm not sure what this is accomplishing.

A) Why squadrons only?

B) Demolisher wasn't on the GenCon list, and doesn't fit in that list at 300 without sacrificing Assault Concussion Missiles.

C) You will only get off 3-4 squadrons before the other player can activate.

A) because they are the only thing that can strike from farther away than the Demolisher can strike. Ships can't touch it until it has closed.

B) oops. I assumed it was. Doesn't really matter for this.

C) yeah, I touched on that. With TIE bombers you can strike pretty far out if they're not screening with squadrons. The bigger problem is getting enough ships to do 12 activations in one turn and still afford the bomber fleet.

The bigger problem is getting enough ships to do 12 activations in one turn and still afford the bomber fleet.

Very interesting analysis !

Rather than trying to kill the Demolisher before it gets one attack, maybe baiting him to come and tank the attack, while setting it up for a nasty, nasty crossfire ?

Example, throwing a Corvette B with ECM in its trajectory so that it's too good to pass, and making sure that he would only get one shot (read one firing arc) on the target. The real power with Demolisher I found is its ability to attack twice the same target from the front then broadside it to death. The expert demolisher players I've played against usually keep it at Speed 2 with Engine Techs for the flexibility for most game unless they really need to catch something up.

The idea with the bait is to force him to activate before 3 (2 if you somehow lured it in the front arc of 2 VSDs) of your ships. Due to the tokens, that is what it takes to kill the Demolisher thanks to Brace and Redirect.

Had a player pull this. I set my ship at abouy 2.5 from the edge and not the 3. They where moving at 3 speed. Moved my guppy up. Then he came screaming in with the demo. Speed 3 plus engine tech. He was just out of close like 1/4 inch short. Neb b had two arcs and blasted away. Next round guppu went 1st and also had two arcs and finished it off. Mind you the neb b rolled 5 dmg. For the front and 3 for the side arc. And the guppy went maxed dmg on the side and nearly max on the front arc.

If either ship had a squadron command it woulf of been even worst.

If someone is just screaming in with Demolisher without properly having it up, then they're not flying correctly. A properly supported Demolisher should be shooting by turn two, with plenty of backup either shooting as well or about to. You just don't send it in in his own.

Fighters so far have not really bothered me.

killing demo before it attacks is basically impossible

this is a good thing. You don't drop 70+ on something that can be trivially swatted off the table before it gets at least one barrage off

Is it possible to kill the Demolisher before it attacks?

YES.

It is definitely possible to kill it, even if by 'before it attacks' you mean with long range red dice rather than the real attack it does with black.

However since the real question is 'how?', you might not like the answer

The easiest way to do it is to use another Demolisher, which is bad enough, but to make it worse it is easiest in a list that ignores imperial squadrons and has as high a ship count as possible, in order to get first and last activation (so GGGG at 300pts, VGGGG or Raiderspam at 400).

The bottom demolisher has finished its move. The top one is far away from it, outside red dice range.

Speed 3 and Engine Techs brings it right into range with space to spare. It fires 4 black dice doing the level of damage we have come to know and love.

At the start of the next turn it fires again.

If the target is dead, it moves on and fires hopefully red at something else. If not, it fires again

And there you have it; a basic illustration of how a Demolisher can be killed before it attacks.

By a Demolisher.

A double activated Luke (Adar Talon) + structural damage fishing with Dodonna can kill Demolisher if you bank on Luke rolling a pair of Crit+hits (1/8 chance so not great)

5 Corvettes going speed 4 and ramming?

You can brace Luke twice making a maximum of 4 damage. But you do waste their brace if you're that lucky.

B) Demolisher wasn't on the GenCon list, and doesn't fit in that list at 300 without sacrificing Assault Concussion Missiles.

Maybe I have the wrong list in mind, but I'm pretty sure Demolisher was on the list that took first at Gen Con/North America Nats. Screed, a Vic I, 2 Glad Is with ACMs, and a Glad I Demolisher with ACMs comes out to 298 (26 + 73 + 63 + 63 + 73).

If you had another list from Gen Cone in mind, then nvm, my bad.

B) Demolisher wasn't on the GenCon list, and doesn't fit in that list at 300 without sacrificing Assault Concussion Missiles.

Maybe I have the wrong list in mind, but I'm pretty sure Demolisher was on the list that took first at Gen Con/North America Nats. Screed, a Vic I, 2 Glad Is with ACMs, and a Glad I Demolisher with ACMs comes out to 298 (26 + 73 + 63 + 63 + 73).

If you had another list from Gen Cone in mind, then nvm, my bad.

You are right, I thought that Demolisher was dropped for ACMs on all.

killing demo before it attacks is basically impossible

this is a good thing. You don't drop 70+ on something that can be trivially swatted off the table before it gets at least one barrage off

Is it possible to kill the Demolisher before it attacks?

YES.

It is definitely possible to kill it, even if by 'before it attacks' you mean with long range red dice rather than the real attack it does with black.

However since the real question is 'how?', you might not like the answer

The easiest way to do it is to use another Demolisher, which is bad enough, but to make it worse it is easiest in a list that ignores imperial squadrons and has as high a ship count as possible, in order to get first and last activation (so GGGG at 300pts, VGGGG or Raiderspam at 400).

The bottom demolisher has finished its move. The top one is far away from it, outside red dice range.

And there you have it; a basic illustration of how a Demolisher can be killed before it attacks.

By a Demolisher.

Yes, a Demolisher can kill another Demolisher, that's i dunno, pretty much a given? I was under the impression this thread was for the purpose of finding new ways to kill the Demolisher before it does too much damage. We all know what the Demolisher can do to other ships, especially if it gets last and first activation in successive rounds. We need counters that don't involve mirror matches.

In the original post Tranenturm said "the goal is to destroy the Demolisher before it attacks". Clearly he'd prefer the answer to be doing it with squadrons, but he didn't say that the answer needed to be squadrons.

My post with images was intended more as a reality check than a solution; the reality being that even a Victory+Demolisher+Squadrons fleet would be at a clear disadvantage to a pure Capital+Demolisher fleet.

Currently my non-mirror counter to Demolishers is to maneuver (or list build) to ensure that its target is a survivable Frigate and have other ships able to deal with it after it attacks. I think hoping to delete it before it does its damage isn't currently realistic.