The play is the thing. Having been here since the EotE beta, this has come up every once in a while. I'd say the majority of individuals who brought it up had not actually played the game and were looking at it from a numbers point of view. Which is fine if that is your thing but it is not the be all/end all. A majority of people who have actually played the game have found the droids can be better or worse just as any other species can be. It is rare that I don't have or see at least one in every party. As I said the majority of the few complaints have come from people who have not actually played the game. In the end I suggest you run things as they are and observe before making any grandiose homebrew changes.

Veterans such as MouthyMerc also have the benefit of seeing some pretty broken droids (no pun intended) described on these boards. A 4 or 5 brawn droid with will have a 6-8* soak right off the bat. That's huge for a starting character with no earned XP. And we've seen more than a few requests of challenging the melee droid because the GM cannot throw adversaries at it without killing the rest of the party.

As others have said. They designed droids to be specialists. Droids are purpose built for a specific task, and they tend to perform that task with precision and efficiency. They aren't designed to perform tasks outside the original designed intent. To make up for their specialization, they have been given 3 additional free career skills to help round them out, plus a ton of fluff benefits.

There is even a fluff benefit unique to my table that other GMs may already be implementing at theirs. In my slice of Star Wars, cybernetics are a little taboo. The Clone Wars left a bad taste in everyone's mouth and mixing man with machine makes the average citizen more than a little uncomfortable. The mundane ones that are intended to replace the missing limb or organ are fine, but a Clone Wars vet may still want to cover it up in some way with clothing or Synthflesh. But the augments are more questionable.

The idea of a person willingly lopping off perfectly functional pieces of their own body to replace them with a mechanical organ is down right sickening. However, for droids, cybernetics are basically just upgrades for droids (which droids get 6 cybernetic upgrades regardless of their brawn rating). So no one thinks twice of a droid with upgrades (I.E. Cybernetics). This goes against canon to some degree, but it helps me define the Star Wars experience I envision.

Finally, there's one small benefit that's pretty situational, but should be accounted for when comparing droids to other organics. Droids attempting to heal themselves through Mechanics only increase their check by one, rather than by 2. They do not feel pain as you or I do, so it doesn't distract them when making self-repairs. It's small, but it's worth considering.

It's up to you to determine if droids are up to your standards and adjust your house rules as you see fit, but there are also a lot of people that see droids as perfectly fine and fun characters to play. There are even a few that find them a little too good.

* 4 (brawn) + 1 (Enduring) + 1 (heavy clothing) Or 4 (brawn) + 1 (Enduring) + 2 (Padded Armor)

or 5 (brawn) + 1 (Enduring) + 1 (heavy clothing) Or 5 (brawn) + 1 (Enduring) + 2 (Padded Armor).

I've been around for awhile, and I have to say that I've seen one Droid PC. After that, none of the players in my four games (including the one that had originally played a Droid) wanted anything to do with them as PCs. For us, Droids have become something between NPCs and gear rather than a viable PC choice.

I've been around for awhile, and I have to say that I've seen one Droid PC. After that, none of the players in my four games (including the one that had originally played a Droid) wanted anything to do with them as PCs. For us, Droids have become something between NPCs and gear rather than a viable PC choice.

Well, that goes to show that every table is different. I have yet to play a game without a droid in the party.

Terrible puns aside, at first I thought it was a comparatively minor min-maxing stat difference that you were talking about, but when you break it down, I definitely see your point. As others have pointed out, droids do get some advantages in terms of cybernetics and enclosed weaponry, which I think offsets some of the disadvantage, but you're right - it doesn't seem to cover the entire gap, especially at first.

Flavor shouldn't have to make up for that much of a disadvantage. However, even when we had a bunch of starting players, which is where you'd think the difference would be the most stark, it still felt pretty even.

I'll have to take a look at it tonight.

I'd be really curious to hear your thoughts after taking another look, especially since you've played games with a bunch of starting players. I've never played a game with more than two starting players, so part of the issue I've seen may be due to a lack of a need for any kind of 'specialist'. The droid does one thing amazingly, and the organic character is stuck doing the rest.

Your sentence 'flavor shouldn't have to make up for that much of a disadvantage' is exactly my thought, much more succinctly than I've ever written it. I guess I'm just trying to figure out whether that disadvantage actually exists.

Out of curiosity, if you had the choice to buy the traits 'inorganic' and 'mechanical beings' with XP, how much XP would you pay for them? This whole disagreement may simply be the case that some of us just don't value those qualities as highly, in which case the issue isn't so much with droids as with player perceptions of certain abilities, which is a different and essentially insignificant issue.

How could you want to play a droid and not be willing to buy those traits?

Are you suggesting that if you wanted to play a droid would you pay any price? To take it to an extreme, if I had to pay all of my starting XP to get them and was left with a 1-1-1-1-1-1 in attributes with no talents and only the free skills, I wouldn't be willing to buy those traits even if I really wanted to play a droid. The flavor doesn't make up for that big a handicap (obviously that's an extreme situation that is entirely absent from the rules as written, but the point is, there is a point when I do care about the mechanics and the associated XP costs)

I guess I should rephrase my question to be more realistic and more in line with what I actually want to know: If you were creating a starting character, how much starting XP would you pay to get a talent (which was not part of any tree) that made you immune to mind-related force powers and made breathing and eating unnecessary?

For my part, I think I'd pay 5XP each, maybe 10 or even 15 for the second one if it was part of my character concept. That's really only half of what the RAW asks me to pay for them, though, which gives me pause

The play is the thing. Having been here since the EotE beta, this has come up every once in a while. I'd say the majority of individuals who brought it up had not actually played the game and were looking at it from a numbers point of view. Which is fine if that is your thing but it is not the be all/end all. A majority of people who have actually played the game have found the droids can be better or worse just as any other species can be. It is rare that I don't have or see at least one in every party. As I said the majority of the few complaints have come from people who have not actually played the game. In the end I suggest you run things as they are and observe before making any grandiose homebrew changes.

Well, I have played the game, and I have run them as they are. Probably not as much as you, but I have played it. As either a GM or a player, I've done two longer campaigns, two short adventures (one session each), and one 2-session adventure. I also enjoy making characters for fun - some of which get used in games I GM, some of which I just make. I've made a few droids, but none I'd be willing to play. As a GM I've seen and run GM PC droids. They all feel like one trick ponies to me. Also, I'm not sure that '+5 starting XP' qualifies as 'grandiose homebrew changes'. I do really like kaosoe's suggestions below, though, and if you have any additional suggestions I'd love to hear them.

Veterans such as MouthyMerc also have the benefit of seeing some pretty broken droids (no pun intended) described on these boards. A 4 or 5 brawn droid with will have a 6-8* soak right off the bat. That's huge for a starting character with no earned XP. And we've seen more than a few requests of challenging the melee droid because the GM cannot throw adversaries at it without killing the rest of the party.

...

* 4 (brawn) + 1 (Enduring) + 1 (heavy clothing) Or 4 (brawn) + 1 (Enduring) + 2 (Padded Armor)

or 5 (brawn) + 1 (Enduring) + 1 (heavy clothing) Or 5 (brawn) + 1 (Enduring) + 2 (Padded Armor).

But what does that thing do in non-combat situations?!! Or if the enemy can fly? Or if he's across a ravine? OK that's a bit facetious but I do think that's more of a player and GM issue than a rules issue.

Especially since I could build a Wookie that was pretty close to that if I wanted to: 5 Brawn, 2 of everything except Willpower, hired gun marauder, 2 melee, 2 brawl, maybe coercion, vigilance, and resilience. Give that Wookie padded armor and she has 7 soak and does a 5 damage brawl attack, plus the enrage ability. The droid had some extra XP, but while it could pick up a few talents (maybe the two marauder toughened talents to bring it's HP up to match the Wookie's 19, and one or two other things), it can't train melee or brawl any higher than 2 anyway, even with it's extra XP, nor can it get more soak or better weapons.

In doing what they do best, hitting things and not getting hit back, those two builds (in this case I think 'builds' is absolutely appropriate) are very similar, but the Wookie might actually be able to accomplish some other tasks, which the droid can't and the Wookie has more room to grow.

Just to clarify: I don't think people should (or that most people want to) build characters this way. I'm pointing out that if you want to 'break' the game you can do it, and there is, probably, a comparable way to do it without a droid.

As others have said. They designed droids to be specialists. Droids are purpose built for a specific task, and they tend to perform that task with precision and efficiency. They aren't designed to perform tasks outside the original designed intent. To make up for their specialization, they have been given 3 additional free career skills to help round them out, plus a ton of fluff benefits.

This makes a lot of sense to me. But three career skills kind of pales in comparison, mechanically and cost-wise, to attributes. That fluff had better be working awfully hard to make up for those stats.

Actually, I do like this point a lot. But instead of 'to make up for their specialization', I'd rather say 'to emphasize their specialization'. They are sacrificing attributes, which help them at everything, for skills, which help them at specific tasks. Although in this case, I still think they'd need a few more skills, and/or the ability to train skills up to level 3 at start. 3 or 4 YYG dice pools at start (with two of the relevant attribute and 3 skills), or even a YYY, would make for an interesting specialist (off the top of my head, of course)

There is even a fluff benefit unique to my table that other GMs may already be implementing at theirs. In my slice of Star Wars, cybernetics are a little taboo. The Clone Wars left a bad taste in everyone's mouth and mixing man with machine makes the average citizen more than a little uncomfortable. The mundane ones that are intended to replace the missing limb or organ are fine, but a Clone Wars vet may still want to cover it up in some way with clothing or Synthflesh. But the augments are more questionable.

The idea of a person willingly lopping off perfectly functional pieces of their own body to replace them with a mechanical organ is down right sickening. However, for droids, cybernetics are basically just upgrades for droids (which droids get 6 cybernetic upgrades regardless of their brawn rating). So no one thinks twice of a droid with upgrades (I.E. Cybernetics). This goes against canon to some degree, but it helps me define the Star Wars experience I envision.

So this is emphasizing the droids' existing bonus related to cybernetics, right? I like the idea, I might steal it.

Finally, there's one small benefit that's pretty situational, but should be accounted for when comparing droids to other organics. Droids attempting to heal themselves through Mechanics only increase their check by one, rather than by 2. They do not feel pain as you or I do, so it doesn't distract them when making self-repairs. It's small, but it's worth considering.

Is this RAW or another house rule? I like it, and I'll probably use it.

It's up to you to determine if droids are up to your standards and adjust your house rules as you see fit, but there are also a lot of people that see droids as perfectly fine and fun characters to play. There are even a few that find them a little too good.

Are there any that find them 'a little too good' outside of the one-track roles of whackbot, healbot, ___bot, etc?

I do definitely like your house rules (even if I would argue that they go beyond 'fluff' and into mechanics to some degree). They do a good job of giving droids a bit of an extra buff relative to organics without opening the door to even more abuse.

Playing a Droid is all about the roleplaying, playing something that isn't organic

But why do you have to take a sizable mechanical handicap to roleplay a droid? No other species choice requires that. I might still be convinced that it isn't a handicap, but I'm not, quite.

--------------

I'm slightly swayed, but not fully convinced. Thanks to everyone for the responses.

Edit to add the Eokai quote.

"I don't consider myself a min-maxer, but I would never play a mechanically sub-optimal race and question why anyone ever would."

Out of curiosity, if you had the choice to buy the traits 'inorganic' and 'mechanical beings' with XP, how much XP would you pay for them? This whole disagreement may simply be the case that some of us just don't value those qualities as highly, in which case the issue isn't so much with droids as with player perceptions of certain abilities, which is a different and essentially insignificant issue.

How could you want to play a droid and not be willing to buy those traits?

Are you suggesting that if you wanted to play a droid would you pay any price? To take it to an extreme, if I had to pay all of my starting XP to get them and was left with a 1-1-1-1-1-1 in attributes with no talents and only the free skills, I wouldn't be willing to buy those traits even if I really wanted to play a droid. The flavor doesn't make up for that big a handicap (obviously that's an extreme situation that is entirely absent from the rules as written, but the point is, there is a point when I do care about the mechanics and the associated XP costs.)

No, I am not suggesting that.

Also, there is no need to go into such hypotheticals since the associated costs are known to us and they are quite low for what they bring to the table.

Veterans such as MouthyMerc also have the benefit of seeing some pretty broken droids (no pun intended) described on these boards. A 4 or 5 brawn droid with will have a 6-8* soak right off the bat. That's huge for a starting character with no earned XP. And we've seen more than a few requests of challenging the melee droid because the GM cannot throw adversaries at it without killing the rest of the party.

...

* 4 (brawn) + 1 (Enduring) + 1 (heavy clothing) Or 4 (brawn) + 1 (Enduring) + 2 (Padded Armor)

or 5 (brawn) + 1 (Enduring) + 1 (heavy clothing) Or 5 (brawn) + 1 (Enduring) + 2 (Padded Armor).

But what does that thing do in non-combat situations?!! Or if the enemy can fly? Or if he's across a ravine? OK that's a bit facetious but I do think that's more of a player and GM issue than a rules issue.

Especially since I could build a Wookie that was pretty close to that if I wanted to: 5 Brawn, 2 of everything except Willpower, hired gun marauder, 2 melee, 2 brawl, maybe coercion, vigilance, and resilience. Give that Wookie padded armor and she has 7 soak and does a 5 damage brawl attack, plus the enrage ability. The droid had some extra XP, but while it could pick up a few talents (maybe the two marauder toughened talents to bring it's HP up to match the Wookie's 19, and one or two other things), it can't train melee or brawl any higher than 2 anyway, even with it's extra XP, nor can it get more soak or better weapons.

In doing what they do best, hitting things and not getting hit back, those two builds (in this case I think 'builds' is absolutely appropriate) are very similar, but the Wookie might actually be able to accomplish some other tasks, which the droid can't and the Wookie has more room to grow.

Just to clarify: I don't think people should (or that most people want to) build characters this way. I'm pointing out that if you want to 'break' the game you can do it, and there is, probably, a comparable way to do it without a droid.

It's a small bonus compared to the wookiee, but in combat soak is king, and a Droid makes it easy to stack it. Yes out of combat, the melee monster won't have anything to do. Mostly the above example was meant to show how the strengths of a droid can really shine over every other species right out of the box.

There is even a fluff benefit unique to my table that other GMs may already be implementing at theirs. In my slice of Star Wars, cybernetics are a little taboo. The Clone Wars left a bad taste in everyone's mouth and mixing man with machine makes the average citizen more than a little uncomfortable. The mundane ones that are intended to replace the missing limb or organ are fine, but a Clone Wars vet may still want to cover it up in some way with clothing or Synthflesh. But the augments are more questionable.

The idea of a person willingly lopping off perfectly functional pieces of their own body to replace them with a mechanical organ is down right sickening. However, for droids, cybernetics are basically just upgrades for droids (which droids get 6 cybernetic upgrades regardless of their brawn rating). So no one thinks twice of a droid with upgrades (I.E. Cybernetics). This goes against canon to some degree, but it helps me define the Star Wars experience I envision.

So this is emphasizing the droids' existing bonus related to cybernetics, right? I like the idea, I might steal it.

Is this RAW or another house rule? I like it, and I'll probably use it.

As you noted the 6 cybernetics cap is RAW. My house rule is just how cybernetics are treated in-game. It does serve to emphasize the benefits of Cybernetcis to droids. The taboo nature of cybernetics in my games makes being a droid very beneficial. Feel free to steal it. Especially if you are looking for ways to make droids shine.

Finally, there's one small benefit that's pretty situational, but should be accounted for when comparing droids to other organics. Droids attempting to heal themselves through Mechanics only increase their check by one, rather than by 2. They do not feel pain as you or I do, so it doesn't distract them when making self-repairs. It's small, but it's worth considering.

Is this RAW or another house rule? I like it, and I'll probably use it.

That's RAW not a house rule. I'm away from my EotE CRB but in AoR it's described on page 233. "All of the guidelines and rules governing Medicine checks also govern Mechanics checks to heal droids, with the exception that a a droid using Mechanics to heal himself only increases the difficulty by one, rather than two. Simply put, most droids can avoid feeling "pain" and have the self diagnostic routines and programming to better understand how to repair themselves."

It's up to you to determine if droids are up to your standards and adjust your house rules as you see fit, but there are also a lot of people that see droids as perfectly fine and fun characters to play. There are even a few that find them a little too good.

Are there any that find them 'a little too good' outside of the one-track roles of whackbot, healbot, ___bot, etc?

I do definitely like your house rules (even if I would argue that they go beyond 'fluff' and into mechanics to some degree). They do a good job of giving droids a bit of an extra buff relative to organics without opening the door to even more abuse.

I've seen post or two complaining about a few Droid slicers that can't be challenged, or trying to download/install their core into machines they weren't meant to inhabit such as Star Destroyers or a planet's central core. A lot of that could be boiled down to GM/Player conflict, but if a GM doesn't have a problem with that, that could be a potential problem with droids.

If you find the lack of diversity in the droids characteristics too unforgiving perhaps the community can help you come up with a good house rule as a compromise. What about a Droid only 10 (for large groups) or 20 (for small groups) obligation that cannot be reduced. Call it "Second-class citizen" or "Considered property". Droids can take the obligation on top of their standard additional obligation available as part of character creation for 10-20 additional XP.

Or allow them purchase software upgrades (maybe 3,000 credits) to increase a characteristic of 1 to 2. Note a characteristic cannot be raised above 2 in this way. It seems a little unfair to the organics, but you can pitch it to your table and explain to them what you are hoping to accomplish.

Out of curiosity, if you had the choice to buy the traits 'inorganic' and 'mechanical beings' with XP, how much XP would you pay for them? This whole disagreement may simply be the case that some of us just don't value those qualities as highly, in which case the issue isn't so much with droids as with player perceptions of certain abilities, which is a different and essentially insignificant issue.

How could you want to play a droid and not be willing to buy those traits?

Are you suggesting that if you wanted to play a droid would you pay any price? To take it to an extreme, if I had to pay all of my starting XP to get them and was left with a 1-1-1-1-1-1 in attributes with no talents and only the free skills, I wouldn't be willing to buy those traits even if I really wanted to play a droid. The flavor doesn't make up for that big a handicap (obviously that's an extreme situation that is entirely absent from the rules as written, but the point is, there is a point when I do care about the mechanics and the associated XP costs.)

No, I am not suggesting that.

Also, there is no need to go into such hypotheticals since the associated costs are known to us and they are quite low for what they bring to the table.

The associated costs are known, yes, but I think they are too large and you don't, so I'm curious about what the gap is. I was using the hypothetical because I was hoping that by taking it to either extreme we could come to an agreement then work our way in to see where the disconnect lies. I've said I think starting 10XP in the hole for those unique abilities is fine, and as much as twice that if I really want being inorganic in my character concept. You have (I think, in the quote above) agreed that starting 175XP in the hole is too much for those abilities.

As you say, though, the costs are known. You apparently think the 30-40XP hole in RAW is acceptable. I'm curious as to why you think so, and, as per the question that immediately followed the part of my post you quoted, how much you think it is actually worth (given that you have said that the 30-40XP are 'quite low for what they bring to the table'.

I guess I should rephrase my question to be more realistic and more in line with what I actually want to know: If you were creating a starting character, how much starting XP would you pay to get a talent (which was not part of any tree) that made you immune to mind-related force powers and made breathing and eating unnecessary?

For my part, I think I'd pay 5XP each, maybe 10 or even 15 for the second one if it was part of my character concept. That's really only half of what the RAW asks me to pay for them, though, which gives me pause

I'd be really curious to hear your thoughts after taking another look, especially since you've played games with a bunch of starting players. I've never played a game with more than two starting players, so part of the issue I've seen may be due to a lack of a need for any kind of 'specialist'. The droid does one thing amazingly, and the organic character is stuck doing the rest.

Your sentence 'flavor shouldn't have to make up for that much of a disadvantage' is exactly my thought, much more succinctly than I've ever written it. I guess I'm just trying to figure out whether that disadvantage actually exists.

I guess I should rephrase my question to be more realistic and more in line with what I actually want to know: If you were creating a starting character, how much starting XP would you pay to get a talent (which was not part of any tree) that made you immune to mind-related force powers and made breathing and eating unnecessary?

For my part, I think I'd pay 5XP each, maybe 10 or even 15 for the second one if it was part of my character concept. That's really only half of what the RAW asks me to pay for them, though, which gives me pause

So this is emphasizing the droids' existing bonus related to cybernetics, right? I like the idea, I might steal it.

Is this RAW or another house rule? I like it, and I'll probably use it.

In order:

I've GM'ed something close to 40 PCs from creation on up, at least 30 different players in 6 different campaigns. Every single starting party had at least one droid, usually a combat specialist who easily outperforms everyone else in its chosen field. While their capabilities outside that field are limited, it's a lot more fun for everyone than you might expect. And while the occasional protocol droids isn't good in a straight-up fight, it's also clearly a noncombatant and can cause a lot of trouble behind the NPCs backs.

You're probably right that larger parties allow for more specialization.

In purely mechanical terms? Those are easily bottom-row talents or even Signature Ability-level effects. Constant near total immunity to anything other than direct combat damage. The only other thing in the game that comes close is a Gand, and that's a 10-point difference for atmosphere alone.

This may be because of different styles of GMing; I mostly run fringer or civilian campaigns, so combat is scarce. I also try to tie in the environment whenever possible, make it more immersive, so terrain, weather, gravity, etc. all are involved.

The aversion to openly-displayed cybernetics is part of Star Wars lore, especially so towards people who intentionally "upgrade" themselves. Sort of a "losing your humanity" kind of thing.

Edit: Also, droids are most often considered property. As such, unless they draw attention for some reason (a combat droid's armament) they'll often be overlooked, which lets them get away with an awful lot.

Droid self-repair is RAW, in the healing section. Edit: I see someone else got there first.

It's a small bonus compared to the wookiee, but in combat soak is king, and a Droid makes it easy to stack it. Yes out of combat, the melee monster won't have anything to do. Mostly the above example was meant to show how the strengths of a droid can really shine over every other species right out of the box.

Fair enough, in combat soak is king and droids get an extra soak so they are the best for min-maxing combat.

Below, though, you mention a droid slicer. Again, except for the 'upload your brain into a star destroyer' thing, is the droid slicer significantly better than, say, a starting Mon Calmari slicer? Still 5 intellect, 2 computers to start. They even have a few other abilities on top of it and 10 XP to spare for talents, and there is no '+1 soak' to be a significant buff.

I see your point, though, and now I'm mostly fussing over the details.\

That's RAW not a house rule. I'm away from my EotE CRB but in AoR it's described on page 233. "All of the guidelines and rules governing Medicine checks also govern Mechanics checks to heal droids, with the exception that a a droid using Mechanics to heal himself only increases the difficulty by one, rather than two. Simply put, most droids can avoid feeling "pain" and have the self diagnostic routines and programming to better understand how to repair themselves."

Thanks, I'd missed that rule. Only really applicable for a droid mechanic, but it's a nice touch.

I've seen post or 2 complain about a few Droid slicers that can't be challenged, or trying to download/install their core into machines they weren't meant to inhabit such as Star Destroyers or a planet's central core. A lot of that could be boiled down to GM/Player conflict, but if a GM doesn't have a problem with that, that could be a potential problem with droids.

If you find the lack of diversity in the droids characteristics too unforgiving perhaps the community to help you come up with a good house rule as a compromise. What about a Droid only 10 (for large groups) or 20 (for small groups) obligation that cannot be reduced. Call it "Second-class citizen" or "Considered property". Droids can take the obligation on top of their standard additional obligation available as part of character creation for 10-20 additional XP.

Or allow them purchase software upgrades (maybe 3,000 credits) to increase a characteristic of 1 to 2. Note a characteristic cannot be raised above 2 in this way. It seems a little unfair to the organics, but you can pitch it to your table and explain to them what you are hoping to accomplish.

I really like obligation idea. It fits nicely with the spirit of the rules and the flow of character creation. I'll propose it to my group. Best part is, since it's a house rule, the GM can use it or not, depending on whether they expect the players to abuse droids.

Thanks again for your replies. They've been very helpful.

In order:

I've GM'ed something close to 40 PCs from creation on up, at least 30 different players in 6 different campaigns. Every single starting party had at least one droid, usually a combat specialist who easily outperforms everyone else in its chosen field. While their capabilities outside that field are limited, it's a lot more fun for everyone than you might expect. And while the occasional protocol droids isn't good in a straight-up fight, it's also clearly a noncombatant and can cause a lot of trouble behind the NPCs backs.

You're probably right that larger parties allow for more specialization.

Thank you, I appreciate the insight. What kinds of protocol droids do people make? I've wanted to make one for a while now, but nothing I've tried stands up to a typical PC level (they do make great NPCs, though).

In purely mechanical terms? Those are easily bottom-row talents or even Signature Ability-level effects. Constant near total immunity to anything other than direct combat damage. The only other thing in the game that comes close is a Gand, and that's a 10-point difference for atmosphere alone.

OK, good comparison to the Gand, thank you. That's exactly the kind of comparison I was looking for.

This may be because of different styles of GMing; I mostly run fringer or civilian campaigns, so combat is scarce. I also try to tie in the environment whenever possible, make it more immersive, so terrain, weather, gravity, etc. all are involved.

Yeah, I also tend to run combat-light campaigns, but I do a pretty poor job of tying in the environment, or at least the atmosphere. Terrain and weather I do regularly, and gravity I've done although I usually choose not to. In that situation, yes, it makes sense that I (and my players) would value those

Sorry to all for the series of replies instead of just one. They all came in as I was replying to the last one. Thanks you, though, for the comprehensive replies. Color me convinced.

Out of curiosity, if you had the choice to buy the traits 'inorganic' and 'mechanical beings' with XP, how much XP would you pay for them? This whole disagreement may simply be the case that some of us just don't value those qualities as highly, in which case the issue isn't so much with droids as with player perceptions of certain abilities, which is a different and essentially insignificant issue.

How could you want to play a droid and not be willing to buy those traits?

Are you suggesting that if you wanted to play a droid would you pay any price? To take it to an extreme, if I had to pay all of my starting XP to get them and was left with a 1-1-1-1-1-1 in attributes with no talents and only the free skills, I wouldn't be willing to buy those traits even if I really wanted to play a droid. The flavor doesn't make up for that big a handicap (obviously that's an extreme situation that is entirely absent from the rules as written, but the point is, there is a point when I do care about the mechanics and the associated XP costs.)

No, I am not suggesting that.

Also, there is no need to go into such hypotheticals since the associated costs are known to us and they are quite low for what they bring to the table.

The associated costs are known, yes, but I think they are too large and you don't, so I'm curious about what the gap is. I was using the hypothetical because I was hoping that by taking it to either extreme we could come to an agreement then work our way in to see where the disconnect lies. I've said I think starting 10XP in the hole for those unique abilities is fine, and as much as twice that if I really want being inorganic in my character concept. You have (I think, in the quote above) agreed that starting 175XP in the hole is too much for those abilities.

As you say, though, the costs are known. You apparently think the 30-40XP hole in RAW is acceptable. I'm curious as to why you think so, and, as per the question that immediately followed the part of my post you quoted, how much you think it is actually worth (given that you have said that the 30-40XP are 'quite low for what they bring to the table'.

I guess I should rephrase my question to be more realistic and more in line with what I actually want to know: If you were creating a starting character, how much starting XP would you pay to get a talent (which was not part of any tree) that made you immune to mind-related force powers and made breathing and eating unnecessary?

For my part, I think I'd pay 5XP each, maybe 10 or even 15 for the second one if it was part of my character concept. That's really only half of what the RAW asks me to pay for them, though, which gives me pause

Sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm genuinely curious, and you seem to clearly know what you're talking about but your posts haven't really explained anything.

I think your math is off on the costs though.

Droid start at 175xp. Now getting them to the baseline 2 in all characteristics like Humans (easily the best choice for races xp wise) would come to 120xp, leaving 55 xp m. A 45 point difference with humans. Now I would like to point out that going "that way" is hardly the appropriate thing to do with a droid PC mind you, you want 4-3-2-1-1-1 that 3po unit has no need for brawl, agility or cunning. But I digress...

Humans get a rank each in two non-career skills (versatile). Droids get 4 additional ranks in career skills (specialized). Which kinda evens things out if you only use it on a first 'level' but it is very possible to use this to get a second rank in a skill (mechanic for instance can use it to gain 2 ranks in mechanics, pilot can get 2 ranks in each of the piloting skills, etc.) So there's a bigger possible benefit in the droid there, let's say a 5 point benefit? There is the "free" Enduring for another 10. Closing the gap to 30...

Now, there are quite a few features that are governed by this 30 points.

The inorganic thing? I'd say that's a second tier talent. Always alert, able to survive in the vacuum? No need for food, no chance of poisoning? 10 points seems about right to me.

Mechanical being? Immunity to force on my mind? I'd say another 10 points. Easy.

Leaving 10 points. Which would easily cover the "can always have 6 cybernetic implants" and "the easier to heal itself".

Even Steven as far as I am concerned.

Now add to that the fact that I think if you play a droid with only 2 characteristics of 1 you need to think about your role some more and really try to make him specialized and you can have one hell of a character.

By the way, this was the first time ever I thought about any character in this way. It was a fun exercise!

And I forgot to add the possibility of weapons and other items being built-in.

Sorry if I've been brief in my replies. I am typing on an iPad and to be honest it is a hassle...

I think your math is off on the costs though.

Droid start at 175xp. Now getting them to the baseline 2 in all characteristics like Humans (easily the best choice for races xp wise) would come to 120xp, leaving 55 xp m. A 45 point difference with humans. Now I would like to point out that going "that way" is hardly the appropriate thing to do with a droid PC mind you, you want 4-3-2-1-1-1 that 3po unit has no need for brawl, agility or cunning. But I digress...

Humans get a rank each in two non-career skills (versatile). Droids get 4 additional ranks in career skills (specialized). Which kinda evens things out if you only use it on a first 'level' but it is very possible to use this to get a second rank in a skill (mechanic for instance can use it to gain 2 ranks in mechanics, pilot can get 2 ranks in each of the piloting skills, etc.) So there's a bigger possible benefit in the droid there, let's say a 5 point benefit? There is the "free" Enduring for another 10. Closing the gap to 30...

Now, there are quite a few features that are governed by this 30 points.

The inorganic thing? I'd say that's a second tier talent. Always alert, able to survive in the vacuum? No need for food, no chance of poisoning? 10 points seems about right to me.

Mechanical being? Immunity to force on my mind? I'd say another 10 points. Easy.

Leaving 10 points. Which would easily cover the "can always have 6 cybernetic implants" and "the easier to heal itself".

Even Steven as far as I am concerned.

Now add to that the fact that I think if you play a droid with only 2 characteristics of 1 you need to think about your role some more and really try to make him specialized and you can have one hell of a character.

Thanks so much, that's exactly the answer I was looking for. I definitely agree that trying to turn a droid into a human is the wrong way to actually build a droid, but it does seem to be the best way to assess balance and it seems to be the way FFG balances their species. That's why I was surprised that droids didn't seem to follow the model. Turns out, probably unsurprisingly, that FFG did maintain their usual balance and I just wasn't giving enough credit to certain droid traits.

Over the last few pages I've gone from highly skeptical to completely convinced. Thanks again for the replies.

Thank you, I appreciate the insight. What kinds of protocol droids do people make? I've wanted to make one for a while now, but nothing I've tried stands up to a typical PC level (they do make great NPCs, though).

Colonist (Politico) or Explorer (Trader), (although if we had AoR at the time the latter probably would have been Ambassador [Quartermaster]). Stat-wise? Presence obviously, and a mix of Intellect and Willpower. A fairly amount of early talents too. Not sure what exactly, they mostly handle their own sheets.

Frankly, I don't care too much about maximizing a specific character's potential. Five years of WH40kRPG wore me out on that. I try to run long-term campaigns, and maxing out a character's specialty early-on is detrimental to both their own enjoyment and the party's balance. I encourage players to spread out their characteristics, it's something of an unspoken rule for us that the only characters who should increase any characteristic more than once at creation are Droids.

Come up with a cool personality, tell a story, have some fun. In one campaign I've got a deadly assassin droid searching the galaxy for love, a delusional Bothan clerk moonlighting as a vigilante cop, and a Drall whose criminal ambitions are only matched by his queasiness at the sight of blood! While they've each got some serious ability in a certain field, that's not the focus of their character, and the most enjoyable moments are when they dive headlong into things their stats say they shouldn't touch with a 3.05-meter staff.

You're right, it is kinda hard to compare Droids to other species creation-wise, a lot of their stuff is just totally different. I only thought of the Gand comparison myself because a droid PC tried to space one last week.

Yeah, I also tend to run combat-light campaigns, but I do a pretty poor job of tying in the environment, or at least the atmosphere. Terrain and weather I do regularly, and gravity I've done although I usually choose not to. In that situation, yes, it makes sense that I (and my players) would value those

Sorry to all for the series of replies instead of just one. They all came in as I was replying to the last one. Thanks you, though, for the comprehensive replies. Color me convinced.

Yay, another one! Have you made the characters prepare their food yet? I did that once when they were on a long hyperspace journey to see how well their stocks would last and how much strain they'd take from hunger and frustration.

We actually changed someone's mind...on the internet?

Glad we could help!

Ooo, now I want to make a trader droid. That sounds fun.

Yay, another one! Have you made the characters prepare their food yet? I did that once when they were on a long hyperspace journey to see how well their stocks would last and how much strain they'd take from hunger and frustration.

We actually changed someone's mind...on the internet?

Glad we could help!

I actually do make characters prepare and eat food... Although it helps that one of my characters decided her character was a food connoisseur and makes a point of trying local delicacies everywhere she goes (preferably stolen delicacies, because we all know free food tastes better).

It's a good reminder for environmental effects, though. I definitely need to make that more of a thing.

You did change my mind. Over the internet! Who woulda called that one?!

I am building a Droid Analyst right now! Now if only I will ever get to play it...

I definitely agree that trying to turn a droid into a human is the wrong way to actually build a droid, but it does seem to be the best way to assess balance and it seems to be the way FFG balances their species. That's why I was surprised that droids didn't seem to follow the model. Turns out, probably unsurprisingly, that FFG did maintain their usual balance and I just wasn't giving enough credit to certain droid traits.

For my part, I give credit to FFG for extensive playtesting everything before they publish. IMO, this is a case where playtesting showed that they should go for a different balance for droids, in order to make them more droid-like.

What FFG doesn’t typically do in these cases is spend a lot of time tooting their own horn about how much playtesting they put into the stuff they publish, and that’s where I think they get, well … dissed … by people who don’t know or care to understand how much work went into trying to make sure that everything was properly balanced.

Those who come to such conclusions out of ignorance, well at least they can be educated.

Over the last few pages I've gone from highly skeptical to completely convinced. Thanks again for the replies.

I’m glad we were able to help.

I say the best thing with a droid is go to a highly toxic atmosphere containing planet and watch the droid stare at the other players. "Why are you clutching your throat and coughing? Why are you now releasing your innards orally? I do not understand the problem."

Droids are worth playing because droid characters are cool. Where would Star Wars be with out C3PO, R2D2 (who pretty much has saved everyone at some point), Guri, HK47, or Kryton?

Droids are worth playing because droid characters are cool. Where would Star Wars be with out C3PO, R2D2 (who pretty much has saved everyone at some point), Guri, HK47, or Kryton?

Sorry, Dave — but Kryten is from Red Dwarf, not Star Wars.

Still one of my favourite droid characters, but it’s a different Universe.

Droids are worth playing because droid characters are cool. Where would Star Wars be with out C3PO, R2D2 (who pretty much has saved everyone at some point), Guri, HK47, or Kryton?

Sorry, Dave — but Kryten is from Red Dwarf, not Star Wars.

Still one of my favourite droid characters, but it’s a different Universe.

I hold out hope that he's added to the cast of Ep VIII. Though I did ask the GM of the game I'm in if we could fly around in Starbug.

In fact, that did not seem to be the case and plenty of posters (the majority in fact) gave you plenty of replies that they did not agree that they were fine with "mechanical disadvantages" as they stated they didn't think there were "mechanical disadvantages".

You are right. I've basically been ignoring the opinions that droids don't have mechanical disadvantages because I still believe they obviously do. I'm prepared to acknowledge that the gap may not be as big as I initially thought, but a gap there is.

Have you ever heard about the 'Oberoni fallacy'? It's basically a term to describe the position that a rule is fine because a GM is the final arbiter of the rules. That's the gist of what I'm seeing here in a lot of posts, e.g. "Droids are fine if the GM puts the party in situations where droids can shine." Good rules shouldn't force the GM to do that kind of thing.

In that context the argument that droids have a great advantage because they can operate in space is also a bit exaggerated. the same argument could be made for races that are amphibious. Of course they may have a great advantage if an adventure is set underwater. But that's not a given and therefore this potential advantage rightly does not translate into a (huge) xp disadvantage.